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Roland PC-600 / PC-12 for apparel printing
Firstly:
Hello to all. This is an extremely informative forum and it seems as though everybody gets along well. (also a howzit to my fellow countrymen such as Rodney)
My name is Carlos de Sa. I am from Johannesburg – South Africa.
My main line of business is multimedia presentations & CD-ROM’s, corporate video productions and the like.Secondly:
Congratulations to all England supporters on winning the RWC. I will not say anything else about this.Thirdly:
I think our Springbok Team had food poisoning. (hot)Lastly:
Roland ColorCamm PC-600 / PC-12 for Apparel/Garment printing:I want to offer an added service to my clients by including a T-Shirt, Cap etc imprinting service for special product launches, events etc.
I am not talking about large volumes of goods here. Perhaps 50 or so per order and less.My main concern is quality and durability.
I have looked at various systems and many are good but not great.
Inkjet sublimation is limited by having to use polyester substrates. It is not very comfortable walking around in a cycling shirt the whole day. IMHO best for mouse pads and coated mugs though.Another good system is the MagicTouch system – which uses a laser printer (with standard manufacturer toner!). What I don’t like about it are the results on T-Shirts and other apparel. It leaves a residue on the non printed areas which tends to yellow after heat pressing. However you do not need poly or 50/50 tees, which are expensive, you can use 100% cotton.
It is great if you want to print A4 (or larger) prints in a rectangular shape. They also have a system called MagicCut. Here you would print the image on your colour laser printer (using one of their specialised papers), insert it into a compatible vinyl cutter and using their software, contour cut the images, and then transfer to your apparel.
Comments on the durability of the print are varied and I have not found a forum of users. The Magic Touch system works very well on many other non-coated substrates such as aluminium plates for awards, mugs, wood etc. The costs are low because of the use of standard toners and the yield they give you. Not taking into account other consumables such as the fuser unit.The other option is to use a Roland VersaCamm SP-300 (as mentioned here many times). Problem here is price. But I agree that this machine would add other business opportunities, such as posters, banners, larger decals etc.
As this would not be my main income earner (wish it was), I cannot justify spending that amount on a ‘side-line’ right now.That leaves me with the thermal printers. Gerber Edge is too expensive, so Roland is the only other alternative I suppose.
Are there any members using the PC-600 or PC-12 for apparel imprinting? I would appreciate any comments on the following:-
– Are the quality results very good?
– Do they hold their colour, brightness etc after several washes?
– Do they crack or peel with time?
– How accurate are the cuts and how close to the print can one cut?
– I am aware of the high print costs of these printers, but due to the small print sizes is it still viable to use in apparel prints? Say 20cm x 12cm max?
– Is the process very time consuming?
– What other equipment or accessories (besides the heat press) are recommended?
– Do your clients see the value, and cost aside, does it compete with screen printed apparel in quality?
Any input is appreciated. I apologise for the long message.Kind regards,
Carlos
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12 Replies
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Nice to see anothe SAfrican here – and I must add , Im really glad the limeys won and the pommies lost – cos to have another “shane warne wannabe” crowing would just be too much to baer 😉
WD England , and wd Wilkinson
Now to business…….
A pc 12 is a toy , we had one here from Telpro and promptly sent it back. I would SERIOUSLY stay away from Roland PC based thermal printing for apparel – isnt it better to find someone who can do this for you ?
You are going to pay R35-50 000 for any machine here and about R500-R1000 per sq meter of print – a 12cm x 20cm is likely gonna cost you R20 to produce? , Add to that the cost of a heat press , heads and amortise the machine , and then you land up at probably double that so selling would be at least R80 – just for the print!!!!!
Thats hefty and it would be cheaper to screen that , even at a qty of 50.Promo “pimps” are a dime a dozen here , tons of ppl selling branded apparel , what exactly is this going to do to expand your market ?
Guys Like EPG have 11 000 agents out there , all with the same catalog , all working on 33% margins and most of em housewifes and part timers , cutting each otheres throats to get the job – difficult to compete with that!!I understand the ppl at presentations spend big on promo stuff , but clothing is such a small part of it ? If you bought a machine to print pop up and other banners , signage , Point of sale, decals , posters and other stuff to compliment the presentation or launch and forgot the few caps etc —- well that another story!!
I have investigated this in SA thinking it too might be an option or added service – sublimation is a bit of a joke here But you might try GMP who are massive and have launched some sublimation section which seems quite “professional” ?? I just found the market terribly competitive in this section , and margins way too low.
If I were wanting to brand apparel , I would buy an embroidering machine. -
Hi Rodney. thanks for your reply.
I am aware (from other posts) that you and various other users are dead against the Roland thermals. I cannot dispute it as I have never used one and your arguments about high costs have also been presented to me by the Roland agent, and it makes sense. Even the Telpro guys (our Roland agents in SA – for those elesewhere) told me that I should rather wait for the VersaCamm. I also know that some do use them and are happy?
As you have said, with the VersaCamm I could ofer a lot more and get better returns.
I was quoted R105 000-00 here (Excl. VAT) for the SP-300. I have a few of the bigger clients who would support me, but this would not be enough at present to cover the machine cost, and I obviously need to establish more business, and that applies to any business.
At present I am looking for something that can help during the quiet months. I thought of anything in the digital printing field beacuse I have always enjoyed the printing game. Vinyl sgnage is great, but after seeing the stunning designs I have seen here on this forum, I guess I better steer clear for the moment.Have you tried or has anybody else who owns one tried the VersaCamm for apparel printing too?
Rodney, I gather from the various forums you have participated in that you are quite clued up in doming. Have you attempted it on garments – caps or t-shirts? Can it be done?
Thanks again!
Carlos
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Hiya
As to doming on clothes , we do a flexible domed decal that is used on diaries , folders etc , it does stick to cloth , but it’s dependant on the vinyls adhesives. One could dome using flexible and tne apply this to a very thin substrate which could be stuck to apparel quite easily with something like a silicon. The problem is going to be washing which will tend to interfere with adhesives. As to roland , go thru Maizeys engraving supplies for perhaps a better price? If you take the machine on HP for example – you will probably pay R4k a month for it – you have to do about R200 a days work with it to break even , which is about 1 m2.
I actually HAVE Roland Thermal machines which I use all day long.
If you want to do doming , you have a huge market for the versacam or thermal machines output – there is badges which is a market to it’self , keytags , zip pullers , domed inserts for trophys and rosettes , domed decal and all manner of branding and and promotional items.
As to promo items , we actally make our own , stuff like coaster sets , rosewood presentation boxes , table place mats , driver liscence holders and the like and do unique items rather than buy some importers chinese product.
I do no garment printing with my Soljet or my thermals – and never have – I dont think the Versacam does it the same way as the thermals , I think it prints on a white substrate which you chave to heat press on , but I really know nothing about this side of things process wise. There is a shop in a mall near us that specialises in this type of stuff , putting images on t shirts , embroidery etc which my clients use for small run stuff , I’ll find out more from them.
The Edge guys here are Midcomp if you want more info on that system or the other stuff they carry. I think they have some great deals on refurbished Edge I systems .You can probably pick up a well used PC60 for R30k or less , and would most likely have to spend about R7k for a full service and head replacement – aftermarket carts are available from Ideal Imaging for both PC and edge systems at well below original’s prices (R100 or less) Thing is , to do a 4 colour print with a spot , the price per cart per sq m (pc) is about R130 – and about R250 for gold/silver – sa a CMYK + spot metallic job costs R 800 per sq meter – inkjet is at WORST R70 per sq meter (R12 to the GBP for the british folk reading this) Sublimation would be the cheapest way to start imho with something like an epsom 870 at less than R1200 and a set of inks and a heat press etc – cant see the whole shebang costing you more then R10k in total – bear in mind only THERMALS print white – so with inkjet and sublimation – white isnt an option – I think the problem might be doing prints on dark stuff.
If you want to contact me , Im in CT on 021 592-4123 -
Got to agree with Rodney, on this one.
We started out screenprinting garments, then bought a PC600 to breach the gap for low volume multi colour. Never really took off. For the same money the customers could have embroidery. We then bought an embroidery machine, and never used the PC600 again, for garments.
If its just for garment decoration, you`d be better of going for a small embroidery machine, proberly cost you alot less too,to set up.
We do however decorate alot of garments using single colour cad cut material, we find this very profitable for small runs, one offs etc. We could never make a living just with this method, but we can earn £50 aday while having a cup of tea, or waiting for tee shirt dryer to warm up..perhaps this is the way to go?
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Hiya Becky
Embroidery is something I am pretty keen on but know diddly squat about – We got lots of other machines , packages and puters and often laser engrave “fleecy” stuff or cut it with a laser (the laser selectively removes the fleece and you get an embossed logo) as well as cutting “difficult” fabrics whilst sealing the edges in shapes most knife based susyems cant cut (we also do “lace” sometimes , but its expensive and takes a long time).
What can you tell me about embroidery? We have a ton of schools , sports clubs , corporates etc that buy stuff from us.
What detial can you embroider ? What packages are avialable and what can I get for round GBP10k? -
Thanks ‘Becky’ and Rodney.
Again your suggestions make sense.
I contacted Midcomp (Gerber agents in SA) as you mentioned Rodney. Very friendly. I was offered refurbished Gerber Edge1 LE version (which is apparently the last of the Edge1 made) PLUS a refurb 680mm cutter Complete system incl all software for approx. R95 000-00 excl. VAT (approx. GBP 8000-00). As they said too, it is the standard for creating full colour decals, vehicle graphics, stickers etc but are limited by size you can print.
The sales lady recons print costs for vinyl = R15-00/running meter plus foil @R15/running meter!…?
Given this info, what would you recommend spending this kind of money on – the VersaCamm or the Edge? I recon the Versa would have the ‘edge’ because it offers eXtra capabilities.EMBROIDERY – Geat idea. Always a demand and decent machines are less expensive than digital printers.
I enquired about this about a year ago. I know very little about them too but one of the nicest machines I saw was the AMAYA machines – from the Melco – SaurerGroup. http://www.melco.com. American I think. The beauty of their machines are that they are modular. You can add more machines as you go. Called ‘heads’, so you can have a one head – 16 colour or up to a max of 30 heads networked with standard ethernet comms. Nice looking machine too.
I do not think there is a SA agent, but their international sales manager is Keith Hinkle – khinkle@melco.com. I have no affiliation to them obviously, but there’s was the most pro looking machine I saw. I cannot find the info on prices for the various machines I looked at.
Rodney go to the website and ask for a brochure and CD-ROM, they will post it to you.Thanks for the tel no. Rodney. I would love to pick your brain on various things and will do so shortly.
Again guys thanks for your help.
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Hi Carlos,
Just wanted to add in my personal opinions.
PC-12 for Apparel/Garment printing, I also looked into this some time ago, the machine hadn’t been released in the UK at the time but Victory Design were about to launch it. I was told by the roland rep to avoid the machine at all costs as there were loads of problems with the machine in the states, The rep actually advise me to go for the camm one 24″ and said my money would be better spent. Victory did release the machine but very quickly withdrew it because of all the problems.
I don’t have costings but as Kev (Becky) said it’s not cheap to produce the transfers on thermal printers such as the colourcamm and edge. Rodney has outlined some figures for you.
Inkjet Sublimation, Fantastic excellent quality vibrant colours, Expensive sublimation t-shirts, limited styles, and only works with white garments.
I have sublimation printing but have not yet used it for garment printing as my customers request coloured shirts or styles that are not available in the unisub material.Magic touch system, I also have this system, and find it’s excellent for transfer printing t-shirts. on both white and dark garments. And when i’m not using the machine for transfers it’s used as an normal laserprinter/photocopier.
quote :It leaves a residue on the non printed areas which tends to yellow after heat pressingSublimation printing transfers the ink only, where as toner transfer needs a carrier, this carrier sandwiches the toner inbetween the garment and the carrier. I have never experienced the yellowing, and can only assume this would occur when the carrier starts to burn, with either to much heat or too long pressing. It is a downside that you have this carrier on the garment however this can be reduced to acceptable levels by trimming to the printed image getting rid of any excess carrier before pressing.
There is also a material which is white that can be used to print onto dark garments. This works in much the same way as the materials for the PC-600 and the edge, the only down side is it’s printed on the laser and not contour cut. Having said this i have had some success in loading the paper into the cutter and then plotting in the similar way that the edge works. You can buy software from magic touch to make this easier, at a cost of GBP 495 or you could buy a plotter with the opus system, if you haven’t one already.
There is also the option of offering one colour or simple two colour logos using the magicut materials or any of the other cad cut materials. Which again as Kev says is nice and profitable.
I can’t comment on the suitability of the Versacamm for this type of thing, however i’m sure there must a garment material available for it. I would like to know if you find anymore info on this aspect, As this machine appeals to me in the other aspects.
Doming onto garments, i have seen this done and it appears that the domes are actually stitched onto the garment.
Embroidery is definately the way to go, I don’t have a machine myself but would be tied between a digital printer and an embroidery machine should the money become available. The melco brand is well known and the ability to add heads is fantastic. there is quite a steep learning curve with embroidery as it’s a completely different software to learn. but there are lots for people who do not product the patterns,digitise,tapes what ever you like to call it. They send them out and only do the actual embroidery. This is a great way to get started and up and running while you learn the software for yourself.
Hope this gives a bit more light to the subject
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hiya All
Just investigated the Embroidery thing and Melco amaya seems the way to go – a little on the pricy side , software and machine , single head will stand me in at about R130 000 – around GBP12k – HOWEVER the latest trend in this market is to use lasers combined with an embroidery machine , and currently there is only one embroidery co doing so , and we have lasers in house – so the embroidery guy (Yes there is a rep in SA for melco – in CT round the corner from me recons we can take a huge portion of the “exclusive” (and pricey) market – prolly salesmans talk !!!
Evidently the design program is vector based and all our existing artwork is mostly vector. Im thinking , perhaps print with the inkjet on fabric and selectively laser cut and embroider portions for sumething totally different? They seem to use lasers to cut aplique etc?
I have laser engraved and laser cut fabric and deal with corporates and promo co’s so when we open up after our annual shutdown will investigate further.
Ah well , We are working till 12 tonight – full staff – to complete a massive order – another day in paradise!!!! -
Lorraine hit the nail on the head with embroidery. Its the software.
Anyone can buy a machine and start embroidering.
The software used to create the designs is quite complex. scan in the artwork and digitise it. But where skill comes in, is allowing for movement of the garment.
For instance, when creating a circle, you would create a slight oval, then when it is sewed out, it would become a true circle. This is because you are filling the garment with tread, the area has to expand.
We have quite high leval software, and we still farm out some of the more complex designs.
We use pulse software which has a “vector” converter. Inport your vector and press go. Sounds simple but it has its faults. Can`t do complex shapes, and it uses fix paramiters in the software. The skilled manual digitister knows what stich to use in a ceratin area, and how much compensation to use with it. All garments move diferant way that others. Due to how they are manufacturered.
new single heads can be bought for 6K. software, depends upon the leval required.
I`ve seen 2nd user 4 head machines go for 5K.
But you have to be careful of how much use they have seen. -
Hi.
Becky: I had no idea it was that difficult to use the software!
Rodney: Let us know more about using lasers and embroidery together, once you know more. Expensive needles hey!!
Lorraine: Thanks for the info on your MagicTouch system. I would like to know more about your thoghts on the system. I will post a new topic on this. Hope it’s ok with you.
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Hello everyone
Just a quick note to let you know that I m using a versacamm for t-shirt printing. (as well as other things-still finding new materials to print on).
The transfer material I use is SISER’s Colorprint orColorprint Extra for Nylon/Leather e.t.c. Siser recommends washing up to 50 Celsius and have tested the garments…The resulting prints look very good and proffesional and you can have slightly glossy images if you use different cover papers. It costs more to print on white/light garments compared to a laser printer but on black/dark it actually comes cheaper. roll width is 50cm and costs 180euro for 25 metres.Iosif
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Just to put my point in here – the Melco Amaya is a great machine – Im biassed becuase we use a lot in-house as our main embroidery setup. There great as we can use them as 2 10 heads, 20 single heads, etc,etc.
We were one of the first sites in the UK to get them and there were teething problems, but they are very advanced compared to other machines from other manufacturers.
The software is very expensive – we bought Design Shop Pro Plus (£7,000.00) just for a single user version of software and dongle, and we took about a year in training and design before the designs were 1st class. We wouldnt do it any other way – we can now get a client in the morning and have a 16 colour design ready for lunchtime!
Its not just a case of spenidng £10k on a single head though – unless you know a good punching house – everybody has their own ideas !
All the best
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