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price of print
I have been quoted £15 +vat sq mt for printed vinyl. Not having this done before, i was wondering if that is a reasonable price?
Min order is £35 + vat
Iain
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20 Replies
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ide say its a good “trade” price.
however… i know several trade suppliers offering this sorta price per square metre… riality is… it is low rez on super wide machines. not suitable for anthing looked at closer than 15 feet away… few years ago i was stung like this, my own fault, i was none the wiser. these machines do building wraps, billboards and the like.. thats what they are for…
however… if it is not one of the big trade suoppliers and it is a good rez, quality print then it is from a sign firm that obviously is in a panic for business…. these type of prices for top end prints is rediculous and its prices like this that lower the value of our hard investments.not having a go at your question iain :lol1: sorry, i realised i was beginning to rant there mate…
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That price is the going rate for Grenadier prints down my way- memory serves I think laminated is an extra quid or two.
Local guy here has an arizona and he is exactly 100% more expensive than what I can get from one of the big suppliers down the road.
This rate has been the same for over a year- don’t know what others consider the going rate but I wouldn’t believe the print machine sellers claims as their quoted prices are way, way too high.
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not the case mate… if you charge that low your just devaluing your own product. trying to compete with surrounding cowboys will only cause you long term bother. let the desperate remain desperate, give yourself an easier life, deal with the right customer and charge better….
sit back and let those around you fall…I’m not saying this smarmy in anyway mate, I’m just advising by what i believe to be the way to go…
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£15 sq mtr… u got to be kiddin!
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All I’m saying is that I buy in at that price- I charge way more than that for retail- mainly it’s wraps and stuff where the value is in the fitting not the print. I think that’s really the key point- the print on it’s own is not that valuable- it’s what you do with it that earns the pennies.
I was pretty surprised to find out that the print machine sellers are also offering to do printing for the trade- a very illuminating conversation with a rep from one of these companies persuaded me not to go down the own machine route- part of what I was told that during busy periods they just nip down the warehouse and uncrate a machine. As they also sell the ink & media to people with machines their cost price is way under what they charge so that’s how they can come in so much cheaper. It’s not a little setup either- you get a chunking great sample box & sales aids. Plus, you get a choice of output from Vuteks, Zunds, Cadets, Hp’s, Grenadiers, DC3’s and more- you just pick and mix the right machine for the given project- building wraps and posters on the Vutek, high definition interiors on an HP, vehicle wraps off an Arizona or Grenadier
I got burnt in 96 with a Fuji Colorpix machine back in 96 which was a total dog- Fuji ended up giving me a second machine for nothing to try an compensate for the problems- both of these are down my local scrap yard- even the bin men wouldn’t take em away.
If you own a machine I just don’t see how you A) recoup the investment B) can compete with the big print houses and C) afford to keep upgrading machines every couple of years- todays all singin and dancin system is next years doorstop- no point running an old tech machine cos the competition will have a newer, better, faster & cheaper to run machine 7 will wipe the floor with you. We do loads of wrap work and general print jobs but let other people have the hassle of nursing the machine through to the end of the job- buying in means any spoilt prints, wasted media and ink comes out of their pocket not mine- which after my Fuji episode is a huge relief- still got 6lt of waste ink which must of cost me £700 in a big jar- every time I think about getting another machine I go look at it for 5 minutes until the feeling passes 🙂
What’s going to happen when the UV machines get sorted out? Will all the solvent printers out there will be obsolete overnight?- UV machines are trickling through now and from the claims made durability, cost & the versatility of what you can print on are much better than solvents.
Rodney’s probably the man in the know on this one- all I know about UV’s is what I read in the sign mags.
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To give you a real life example;
A job for next week 7 metre square full colour photographic design solvent prints with laminate to go onto 5mm foamex panels which slide into some cases we made a while back.
Total cost without that VAT man’s pound of flesh- £104.89
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Spot on Andy. Those are the reasons, plus a few more, why I don’t have a printer either.
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I think £15 per mtr is low. Even as a trade price. That is one of the reasons we do not try to get trade work. I agree with the point about machines getting outdated pretty quickly, I have a Roland CJ70 that we paid an arm and a leg for about 8 years ago.. We still use it as our everyday plotter though even though it is no longer used to print so it doesnot owe us anything.
One main reason I like haveing a printer though is that you can save a lot of time in smaller type signs rather than cutting and weeding we just print them.. It is not cost effective to get that sort of thing done by an outside source. I have to admit that I do not worry about the machine earning me massive profits, as long as it pays for the materials and inks then it is ok for me to use as a toy 😀
Dont need another Porsche parked in the garrage so may as well have another toy to play with…
Cheers
Ian -
Hi all
i have a digital printer, don’t really bother with trade although if we are askedwe do help them out.colmc best of luck to you if you are happy to invest in equipment and then let your trade customers recoup profits from it, because you can bet that your trade customers are earning more than you are per meter. And yes in my area we have signmakers who sell cheaper and customers who want to pay less than i charge, but i’m still busy every week even though i am just a normal guy who brought a machine and pushed the buttons but then isn’t that how we all learn on new machines.
Kev
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what happend to colmc post
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Probably deleted as irrelevant nonsense 😛
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So the supplier of the machines too us, then comes in well “under” the going rate they promote “is” the going rate and ultimately become competition to us?
If I buy a supa-dupa computer tomorrow, it will be a supa-dupa dinosaur the week after. Doesn’t matter a hell these days, everything is the same. The point is, you use that dinosaur till it dies! As long as you make good money, it doesn’t matter if the guy up the road has today’s supa-dupa printer, you both have to pay for the machine & make IT pay for you!
back to going rate round your area, if this is “trade” prices then like I said, there’s loads out there offering this rate, I am talking about IF the “sign makers” in your area are charging those prices, that’s desperate! Don’t compete or even try…. you will be a busy fool till you close the doors. (you said going rate in your area, this is why i assumed sign makers, unless you have multiple trade suppliers? as one doesnt create a going rate) Trade suppliers work in mass volume at low prices. They expect the file handed to them ready to go. Open the file and the machine starts printing. Not the case for Steve the burger man that hands you a McDonald’s menu asking… “Can I get it like that bud?” ill leave these customers to the sign maker charging £20 a square metre. having said that, I have saw in the past year or so… some of the big trade suppliers “drop” prices in competition with other trade suppliers… so I guess even the big boys panic too!John, I hear what you say mate, but I disagree to a point. If this really is the case we are all beat at any angle… im sure you have a vinyl cutter? Isn’t this the case with vinyl machines today also? New ones out every day, prices dropping the following day and cowboys popping up all over… I look at it is two ways…
1, are your customers asking more and more about digital printing? If so, and you quote you loose out on price due to buying in & having to mark up!
2, you already buy a few hundred quid’s worth of prints each week. If this is the case, you could “own” your machine, save much more on prints bought. Faster turnaround & opens the door to so many more new things to offer your customer.
if yes to one or both… maybe buying isnt a bad idea to keep up with the times?
Where I find the problem is, is when you buy a new machine in with no scope. No nothing and try make it work. You have a big bill looming and you have to make it work, there for drop prices to compete with budget signs down the road. More and more of these sort of setups are whets damaging our trade, I think…
On the other hand where I totally agree with you, is if in your line of our trade and use prints occasionally, mixed with text & you don’t chase the local business then why bother with the investment?
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£15 a sq metre is a great price – buy in at that if the quality is AOK,
Interesting scenario at the moment on wide format printers – prices are dropping on equipment costs – lots of people buying having not done a break-even calculation on the purchase price (and indeed including the true cost of ownership of the machine ie. the learning curve for yourself or employees, service agreement, routine maintenance tasks flushing the system and annual costs for parts replacement and maintenance print heads and the like.)
and as Rob says……..
quote :Where I find the problem is, is when you buy a new machine in with no scope. No nothing and try make it work. You have a big bill looming and you have to make it work, there for drop prices to compete with budget signs down the road. More and more of these sort of setups are whets damaging our trade, I think…Give it 18 months and the guys who have dropped their prices to try and compete will be offloading the machines at giveaway prices. Email I received from a supplier trying to help out a customer of his today showed just that. Mutoh Grand Sherpa 87″ 16-18 months old full service history, one careful owner and all the bit and pieces Cost new £20+K? yours for only £4K inclusive.
Net result and an even gloomier prospect is this will result in even lower prices per sq metre on the market as more second hand machines come back onto the market, unless we as an industry start up-selling the design side and our own expertise and start placing a value on this correctly. That’s where the value is to the customer and indeed us. Not in buying a machine that requires you to print out crazy volumes just to pay for itself. As exciting as all this new technology is – I didn’t come into this business to be a £5 per hour machine minder.
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The going rate is generally £25 sq/m
We use Raccoon. Good quality prints on a Seiko Colourpainter and they will always help you out with advice.
I have to say, I am disturbed about some of the machine suppliers also doing printing. If you got a well known company asking you to do some stuff for them, what’s to stop your print supplier contacting said company and offering their services for future work?
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I notice there is a lot of people talking about cheap cheap prices and trying to undercut which i know can be a pain and you may think of dropping your prices to match but let me just say this, my brothers body shop has been in buisness for over 25 years and he charges TOP Dollar ie £250 per panel, Jeez you may say! But and this is the key his work is Top Class he has a no quibble guarantee on any/all of his work no matter what the prob he will sort the job out, he has a reputation for top class work and that is why people go to him because they know they will get a proper job done And no hassle in the case of a fault being rectified.
I ask him many times does it not bother you a new Body shop has opened next door to you charging £200 for a full spray job? he says no Because he knows that within a 6 months 1 year tops that body shop will be gone and also there profit margin is so low they will be out of pocket if they have to redo a bodged job! and he is right over the last 10 years or so i have seen 20/30 new body shops open and close!
What i still find hard to understand is in 25 years of him being in buisness he has spent not 1p advertising!!! Word of Mouth is a very powerfull thing !, Btw if you wanted your car doing there you would be waiting 2-3 months to get it done aswell, Busy and charging Top Dollar.Charge what you are worth not what your compertition are charging dont try and compete with silly low prices, yes i know in slow times you think sod this ill drop my price just to get work but you will pay through the nose for it in the long term ! Being in buisness is not meant to be easy if it was everybody would have there own!
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Chris,
That’s what bugs me about it as well. You don’t buy a machine and go through the hassle of mastering the beast just to earn peanuts watching in work.
The machine suppliers are only doing business but I’m not sure its really to the benefit of anyone. One thing is probably for sure is that during the sales patter they don’t say “oh, and by the way we will be chasing the work for ourselves”.
When I was talking to the guy who came to see me he went through all the different machines they have on tap- I pointed out that while we sell quite a bit of print we aren’t looking at mega volumes “oh, that’s not a problem we want lots of small to mid size customers” was the reply. This is exactly the market that a guy with his own printer should be able to tap into.
To make matters worse these same suppliers are actively targeting the kind of buyers we in the sign trade should be working with. Local government used to be a useful source of work but most now have their own machines sold to them by the same people selling them to us. Round these parts all the colleges, universitys and those new technology schools have top of the line equipment- paid for by you and me via taxes. Guess what they do?- yep, target the business sector as a “valid source of revenue”.
If you are thinking of buying a machine ask the supplier if they do trade work- you might be surprised to find out how many do.
But, the £15 is good for me as it allows me to make a good mark up. I took the decision a few years back to let the cheapo merchants keep the bottom end of the market. If a customer is not prepared to pay the going rate then I’d rather spend the time digging out decent work than working for nowt. How many times have you sat talking with a new client getting all the info on what they want only to find the budget wouldn’t buy a new fridge freezer down at Comet?! Some people really do expect neon, stainless steel and all that jazz for less than the cost of the raw material- nevermind the overheads at your end.
Don’t even get me started on “credit”- sure let me walk into your shop and load up with gear- I’ll pay you in a month or so- as long as business is good, I can find the chequebook and the cat pulls through- cheeky s&ds 🙂
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This has turned into an interesting read. Thanks for all the replies.
I guess £15 for a trade price is very good, i’m glad i found this guy local to me. I can assure everyone here that the end user will be paying quite a bit more for it. I am not interested in doing cheapo jobs, i would rather spend my quiet times learning new techniques and researching new products.
Cheers
Iain -
A couple of very good reasons for a signmaker to own his or her own printer is to allow them to be much more creative and to produce fairly complex designs much more quickly.
Last year a I did this job using ordinary vinyl:-
https://www.uksignboards.com/download.php?id=4753However the Job took all day (and part of the evening) for me and Alison to cut weed tape and fit. Today I would print, laminate and contour cut this design, and do the fitting in a morning.
Even fairly simple designs using say 4 or five colours can be very labour intensive. Having the ability to print and cut reduces the amount of time spent fitting and also compares favourably with the cost of producing in vinyl. (possibly even cheaper when using say 20 metres of print and laminate vinyl against say 40 metres of conventional coloured vinyl to do the same job).
All this instead of using conventional vinyl – and we haven’t even started on the creative possibilites posssible with a printer that simply can’t be done using vinyl.
I apologise for straying from the original topic (yes 15 pounds a square metre is a very good trade price Iain) but felt I should put forward the positive aspects of owning your own printer given that the case aginst has already been put forward.
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My penny’s worth….
Just a year ago I was contracted to install a Grenadier in a long-established London business, for the simple reason that this company could not source print for themselves at anything under £40-£45 a square meter.
Now, barely one year later, we have trade prices of £15 a square meter being reasonably commonplace. Of course this was going to happen. The more printers manufactured and sold the lower the price of the equipment. The lower the price of the equipment the better the take-up is by the industry. Lower prices in a short time was inevitable if you stop to consider it.
Alan’s comments therefore become more relevant than ever. The way to stay on top is by offering a top quality product. We have all seen on these boards examples (I think it was one of Gills threads on this issue) of the kind of terrible work that can be produced. The printer is only as good as the data that goes into it, and I believe that is where the value of the work lies.
Printers have upped the sign game like nothing else has since the inception of vinyl plotters. That development was a huge one for the signage sector, and was dealt with through learning and adaptation to the technology. In my opinion some sign manufacturers have yet to learn how to effectively use even that (now dated) technology!
With digital printers increasing, it is now down to the industry to adapt again, and more importantly it is the responsibility of signage professionals to mould the end product to the highest degree with the new technologies available.
Push the technology creatively, expand the possibilities and potential of the new technology within your signage business, and undercutting prices can be left to those who need to through poor technological utilisation. After all, its not what you got, its how you use it! 😉
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In some ways I agree with what is being said, but I still think it is down to how it is being sold. Cheaper machines etc should be benefiting us, not our customers. It’s there and then when a £15 print is handed over to Mrs. Mop with a dry cleaning business that starts the knock-on effect.
There was a post recently… a member asking how much he should sell a banner. I think the banner had a value of about £100. It was a few lines of text & a logo, cut in vinyl.
Now many said the same, basic text and logo cut in vinyl around £100… Banner size 2 metres x 1 metre approx… Profits about £65
Now lets take into consideration this sign maker has a printer. Does he say…?“And if you have a look up on that wall I have a sample of what our digital printer can do too.”
Pointing up at a full colour eye catching banner, with image of sexy women drinking a can of 7-up…Immediately the customer asks how much is that one then?
is the reply…. em well I can give you that for £40-£50 missus… you see, the prices of these machines have come down so much and inks as cheap as chips…. oh not forgetting it is almost labor less for me… just plug and play, so im happy to profit less just to see the wee smile on your face as you walk out the door.
No! Bang on another £50 or even £100 if you can… if you have to design something up… then say, this is just the price for one as you have artwork setup etc all others after this has 30% off…. keep bloody selling your product.
You have a cutter spitting out banners at £100 and getting it easy enough… the cutter only costs a few grand. But you invest £10,000 or maybe even £20,000 for a printer and instantly knock the backside out of your business because it’s now easier and a bit faster to make these jobs?
thats why you just invested more…. to make more… thats what were are trying to do at the end of the day. its business.For trade work, fine the prints will come down because we are all wise to it. But leave trade work and prices to trade only suppliers. On the other hand we should be taking advantage of these profit margins and making a killing.
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