Out of hours rates & Insurances

[Andy Gorman]

If your fitters expect overtime rates for out of hours then I guess you are justified in charging it to the customer. I don’t see why you should lose out on your profit margin because the centre is only available at night. I would at least add the extra 50% hourly pay rate on top to cover time and a half.

[Shane Drew]

From my experience Carrie, shopping centres with an ‘out of hours’ requirement would not complain about a penalty rate for this tipe of work.

To be safe tho, I don’t define my prices to that degree. I give them a bill for fitting for the completed job, and I don’t break it down to an hourly rate.

Works for me.

As andy says, it should not come out of your profit just because they have a difficult circumstance

[George Elsmore]

time and a half week evenings

time and two thirds saturday evenings

double time sunday evenings

Most Shopping Centres I have worked for have never questioned this rate as they know its unsociable hours. I have even charged for a motel room each following day if it is to far to travel home after a shift as they cannot be expected to drive home after a 12 hour night shift.

Hope this helps

George

[Chris Dowd]

We charge extra for out of hours work, but like Shane, we don’t break the labour element down in our quote.

Something to bear in mine and check out…… most shopping centers we have worked in require you to obtain a permit to work, been caught out a few times by this, and now ask on every occasion if we need one!

Chris.

[Brian Maher]

like shane says,
we dont break it down on the bill,
but we do remind the customer that its going to cost more,
time and a half for first 4 hours and double time after this is a fairly easy way of costing it out…

brian

[Carrie Brown]

Thanks for the input everyone, much appreciated and put my mind at rest …… I had already quoted for these jobs at time and a half for work carried out after 6pm.

I just wanted to see if we were going the right route and not under quoting or over charging. We have already had to give proof of all our insurances, risk assessments, method statements etc so all that is sorted out ……. it was one of those things that was just niggling away at me as to what others charge.

Thanks all 😀

[Shane Drew]

just a question on this folks.

Do you guys have to have proof of your public liability insurance ‘on you’ when you do a job at a shopping ctr or similar.

When we do work in the public arena, we must have our insurance details lodged with the client before hand, or alternatively have it on us when we do the job, to be able to produce on demand. Just curious.

[Brian Maher]

hi shane,
although we have the proper insurance we have never been asked to produce any insuance documents for on-site installations,

we do however have motor trader insurance for collecting and returning vehicles and always carry the relevant docs for this…

[Carrie Brown]

Most of our clients, the larger ones like the shopping centres, office blocks etc we have to produce it all up front, we put it all in with our quotes and then every year we get a letter off them for the copy of all the latest ones and usually a questionaire about our company to go with it for their records. We have a 20 page document at the moment from one place on what you can do and when you can do it and how it has to be done etc etc …. I can understand why ….. these days anyone will sue for anything so I guess we all have to make sure we cover our own backs.

😀

[Chris Dowd]

We have only been asked for our PLI once, and work for some very large clients

We were asked to up our cover to £10 million on one occasion (we have £5 million as standard), after spending hours trying to get that level of cover, we went back to the client and they accepted the £5 million, however, never asked for proof!

We never put insurance details in with our quotes (other than in our terms and conditions).

Chris.

[John Childs]

They are in the filing cabinet if we need them but so far we have never, ever been asked for sight of our Public Liabiity or Motor insurance.

Just another points folks….

Did you know that you are supposed to keep your Public Liability certificates on file for forty years?

[Robert Lambie]

i agree with the others carrie, charge a good rate accordingly. we do work like this from time to time. most times we take an extra man just incase, “still charge for him properly too” shopping centres etc are well covered for all this sorta thing. at the end of the day, if you have to swallow the labour costs etc it just makes the job a bit of a none earner…
price it properly, you wil be surprised at what you, and they consider a fair price. 😉

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote John Childs:

Did you know that you are supposed to keep your Public Liability certificates on file for forty years?

i just got my updated one in the other day…and read the same thing, what would happen if i you never kept them all? 😀

nik

[Peter Normington]

Seems a long time to keep something, but then I suppose if your sign fell on someones head in 2045, they would be looking to sue someone! 😀

[Chris Dowd]

We don’t keep any old Insurance Certificates, as soon as the new one arrives it goes into the frame on the wall and the old one shredded!

Sounds like a bit more bureaucracy gone wrong!

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote signsol:

We don’t keep any old Insurance Certificates, as soon as the new one arrives it goes into the frame on the wall and the old one shredded!
Sounds like a bit more bureaucracy gone wrong!

thats what i have been doing too 😕

nik

[Carrie Brown]

I keep ours ….. its quite an important thing to keep them …. as has been said already, I think it is because if a couple of years down the line a sign you fitted falls on someone and something happens to your insurance co. that you were with at the time or you move ins companies you still have the proof of being covered at the time. These days peps will sue for anything.

😀

But my reason for keeping then could be completely incorrect? …. I think this calls for a bit of googling 😉

[Chris Dowd]

Hmmmmm……. think this could be a bit of a grey area, surely your insurer at the time of the incident would be the one to make the claim against?

When is a sign no longer covered by insurance? 12 month guarantee then out of insurance?

What would happen if Joe Bloggs (sole trader) fits a sign 5 years ago, subsequently has a change in career direction, decides to leave the sign business, sign falls down…….. is he liable? should he continue to insure his work for this 40 year period?

Definitely needs further investigating!

Chris.

[Carrie Brown]

Found this:

How long do I have to retain certificates of insurance for?

You must copy certificates of insurance for 40 years after their expiry date. This is because claims can be made many years after. You must make these available to health and safety inspectors on request.

This requirement only applies to policies in force on 31 December 1998 or later. But you should retain any records relating to previous insurance polices just in case.

What happens if I don’t have them?

The Health and Safety Executive will ask to see your certificate of insurance and any other relevant policies, when they inspect your premises. You can be fined up to £2500 for any day you are without suitable insurance. Failure to display to the certificate or show to the HSE inspectors can lead to a £1000 fine.

***************

So yes it seems you need to keep them as proof that you have insurance and that you have always had insurance.

😀

[Carrie Brown]

Solicitors/cases where someone is to be sued … they will dig up anything and everything to make sure someone pays. If someone is killed by a falling sign their family will certainly want to make sure someone is held responsible Im sure?

😀

[John Childs]

Chris,

Your current insurer will only cover you for mistakes made during the lifetime of your current policy. You surely can’t expect them to accept liability for everything you have ever done, back to day one in business!

For instance, my insurance with the Norwich Union runs out today and my new policy with AXA starts tomorow. There is no way the AXA are going to be interested in paying for, let’s say, an asbestosis claim that has its roots thirty years ago.

Especially as in those days we were involved in car repairs and asbestosis was a real risk and so we paid premiums to reflect that. Today we do very little that is dangerous and our premiums are greatly reduced for that reason. My new insurer is not going to pay out for something that the old one has received the premium for.

[John Childs]

As far as liability for signs goes, that’s fairly easily avoided.

Some years ago I came across a company that was quoting for signs and also, at the bottom of the quote, was a sentence offering annual maintenance for quite a large fee. I thought that this was just an attempt to remove money from their customers on an ongoing basis and thought what rip-off merchants they were. But perhaps it is cleverer than that and they never expected anybody to take up their offer.

The point is that if there was a problem later on, the sign company could just point to the customers refusal to pay for an annual maintenance and safety check on said sign and thereby transfer responsibility to them. Fair enough, we all have to guarantee our work, but once it has stayed up for a year we would be free and clear.

[Chris Dowd]

I think the big point we are all missing is the warranty or guarantee period.

Lets look at another example….. you chimney pot falls off your house that was built 20 years ago and falls on your neighbor and kills them, is the builder liable after 20 years? I doubt it very much, as it is my responsibility as the property owner to ensure that it is properly maintained

I certainly would not entertain ANY claim after a period of 12 months no matter what has caused it as there are too many variables that are out of my control.

Perhaps it’s quite a simple matter of putting a warranty/claim period in your terms and conditions, which clearly states that no claims for loss or damage outside the warranty period of 12 months will be accepted

On a separate issue, it would be interesting to see how many insurance companies that were around 40 years ago are still around, not been bought up by bigger players (who may not honor the bought out companies policy), and further still, how long the insurance companies maintain their records for!

Not only that, what level of cover would have been around 30 / 40years ago, as I suspect that in another 30 / 40 years my £5 million cover would not come anywhere near to covering any claim adequately (unless linked with inflation)!

[John Childs]

Chris,

That’s exactly the point I was making. At some point it becomes a maintenance issue. The thing we should do is to make sure that that point occurs as soon as possible after the warranty runs out because if push comes to shove it is the courts that will make that decision and they may well overrule any small print in your paperwork, however, your case will be greatly enhanced if you have nice documented evidence to show that the customer was aware that the sign needed annual maintenance and that it was him who declined your kind offer to do that work, thereby taking on the responsibility himself.

Regardless of who eventually takes on the responsibility, our aim should be to keep things out of the hands of the insurance companies, the legal system and everybody else because the costs and aggravation alone need avoiding, never mind the settlement. If a bit of paperwork will do that then we should go with it wholeheartedly.

When any insurance company merges or is taken over the new entity takes on all the risks of the old ones, but you will have to fight very hard to get them to pay up on a claim with its roots twenty years previously. However, in the event of them going bankrupt then everything stops and liability falls back on to you, in exactly the same way as if your motor insurer goes broke tomorrow, your cover won’t be there any more and you will need to get another company, and pay again, before you can drive your car. There have been two or three cases of this happening in recent years.

[Kevin Flowers]

Hi,
on jobs which are out of the ordinary, high level, mounted in a special way etc. I state on invoices that checks need to be made periodically or after high winds & storms etc.

Kev