No such thing as "Trade" only anymore….

[Robert Lambie]

I agree very much so…

I have no problem with suppliers on the likes of ebay selling vinyl roll-ends, vinyl past its shelf life, off-cut acrylic sheets and the like… but it does annoy me when suppliers selling printers to us, start selling PRINTS directly to the the public, also selling vinyl at trade prices directly to public etc… what chance do we have?

[Nigel Pugh]

I suppose you have to ask yourself if you bought a £200 cutter off fleabay and then give yourself a company name then contact a supplier for materials how are we to know if you are a fly by night cheap as chips cowboy or a genuine signmaker.

I guess trading with a supplier for a few years would prove it and at the same time afford you lower prices. Ask yourself this when you have ordered materials from a supplier when have you had to prove that you are a genuine signmaker who as the kit to make signs rather than someone who just wants some sticky back plastic………..

[Peter Normington]

Maybe they are not selling at the same price to private buyers, it depends on what discount you are getting, the only way you can tell if the prices are the same is to post some examples, and ask what others pay on here, for the same product and quantities.
It may be you are paying more than you should be as trade?

Peter

[Ian Johnston]

thats the problem, Nigel. We don’t get asked.

When i started 15 yrs ago, i couldn’t get supplied anything, or paid through the nose for it. because The local established companies were respected, they had buying power, not through size but through respect of the trade.

I had to prove i was serious, i had to buy small amounts at crazy prices, get it shipped from everywhere, but after a few years i got to be known and the reps started to call and i got better prices.

The difference was 15yrs ago, i only had to work 40hrs a week at fairly good rates to get a half decent wage.

15yrs later the world has changed, i’ve had staff leave and start up yrds down the road with the same buying power as me because the reps knew them from having worked with me, Given accounts straight away etc . 8 months later BUST, but in that short time, destroy the local market with cheap prices etc, in that short time though with thoese crazy prices giving the perception that we make a fortune the harms done.

In reality the rates are now that poor you’d need to do 80hrs a week to get a wage!!!

I also have a shopfitting company. in that trade there is TRADE. you need to prove that you not just the local shopkeeper looking for cheap goods etc. Joe bloggs can go in and buy if he wants but he will be paying at least 25 – 50% more than me.

Ian

[Gill Harrison]

Its list price for Joe Blogs when he rings Smiths and if further discounts are requested then Joe is put in touch with his rep so thats the point when we ask a few questions………….I’m guessing from the original post that your talking paint replacement vinyls which do pose us with a slightly different issue…….its a new side to the industry and many customers I speak to about paint replacement simply are not interested in doing colour change wraps also the general public don’t seem to put paint replacement and their local sign shop together………they ask their local window tint firms.
The wrap courses always have window tinting chaps attend who say they are asked so many times that they can not ignore the business.

On one occasion last year I had a gentleman ring me who runs a paint spray bodyshop. He knew about car wrapping from forums etc. and because he used 3M in his day to day work he wanted to carry on using it. After a few questions it was very clear the closest he had got to fitting vinyl was to apply the odd decal to crash repair. He wanted to buy a full roll of material and was very upset when I said that I was reluctant to sell it to him as when it all went wrong he would blame the product and not his lack of skill. I offered to pass to him contact details of 2 or 3 local sign companies who could do the work but he felt sure that after 20 years of working on the bodywork of cars he was sure he was qualified to do a full car wrap.

The only way I could make him understand was to tell him that on account of me wrapping vehicles for 20 years I must be fully qualified to do a full body respray on my own car in my own garage "the penny dropped" But it was a fatal error telling him this as then he felt sure I should be willing to go and teach him how to do it. What eventually happened was I took a couple of metres of vinyl to his extreamly dusty workshop and demonstraigted to him that ours is a highly skilled profession. He also admitted that if he’d tried for himself he would have blamed the product rather than his lack of skill.

As I left I gave him the name of 3 local sign shops.

[Mike Grant]

Ian, I hear you lad!

Gill, great story.

I think a 4×2 to the back of the head is in order sometimes. 🙄

[Chris Wool]

Jon its not just car forums.
i belong to a few but very rarely mention what i do but watch the vinyl related threads only. let um get on with it as they would not pay you to do it anyway.

[Bob Clarkson]

I think it’s right across the board, the discount I get on building products, especially PVCu that I buy for maintaining my own properties etc, although really good for me, really isn’t fair on someone who’s a builder by trade. I’ve checked prices with colleges/builders, and we’re all charged pretty much the same, trade is trade at our level. There’s obviously far better rates for builders who put housing estates etc up though.
Thing is with car parts, I also get trade, I get a fair bit off general public price, but I don’t even get close to big establish garage price. So on big stuff, I often buy from a friend with a garage. He has in turn bought from the supplier that was to dear for me to use, made himself a drink and it’s still cheaper for me, mad really.
Vinyl, foam and acrylic is a very different thing, it is far more necessary to play companies off against each other or you never really know where you stand. So yes, I agree, we are probably paying all different prices from suppliers who are just happy to sell stuff. With so many more companies going to the wall, it’ll only get worse.
Years ago, if you had an account, it tended to bring discounts, now so many supplies have been knocked, it often easier to get a better price if you pay up front.
Just remembered a plastics company I used years ago gave me a 10k credit limit, not that I ever got close to it, but I reckon it’ll be neigh on impossible to be offered it now.

[Earl Smith]

Sometimes Bureaucracy has its plus side. Im amazed that the British tax man hasnt caught on to this. Here, Germany, we have to register our business and detail what we do. We are then given a form , tax number etc with all our activities stated on it. When we buy from a supplier we have to send a copy of this form to them , that way they know if we are legit or not.
Earl

[Dan Osterbery]

Same here in spain Earl!

when that form is submitted is the only way suppliers will sell to you!

[Stuart Miller]

This is something I get frustrated with.
I used to own an outdoor equipment retail shop. In that industry it was very obvious who were the trade suppliers, what trade price was and what RRP was.
The mark up was based on a standard 1.8 accross the board. It was difficult to get many suppliers as they tended to protect their existing retailers. It took me several years of trading to build up contacts with some of the brands i wanted.

In the sign industry I find there are certain suppliers who do check you are a bonafide sign maker and do give discount from the list price they at first publish or post on the internet. I tend to stick with these when I can.

But a quite a lot of work needs sourcing things like banners, A-boards etc.

Here I find that very often the customer can get things for the same price as me if they do a search on the internet and it makes it very hard to put any mark up at all on products which you source and supply.

[Bob Clarkson]

In the sign trade, we’ve basically been sold out. If anyone wants anything other than lettering on board of some description, I tell them to do a web search, compare prices, get it and I’ll do the rest, fitting etc. I don’t even attempt to buy it in and resell.
I used to forward people to a company in Norwich, and just say mention me and you’ll get my discount, but they now seem to have ceased trading. shame they were good to work with.
I phoned a dozen or so companies once I found they’d gone, with the sole intention of finding someone I could recommend. I didn’t want commission or extra discount on my own stuff, just a reliable, fair contact in the trade. Needless to say, that didn’t happen, most of the companies I spoke to were ridiculously priced or knew less than me, and I know basically nothing about printing, and wouldn’t pretend to either.
Prices were all over the place, there wasn’t even a start point, one company was 2.5 times more expensive than we’d been paying and had put himself down as trade. He did say he wasn’t to busy, if he’d have said he was flat out at that money, I’d have got straight on the phone and bought myself a printer.

[David Rogers]

quote Bob Clarkson:

In the sign trade, we’ve basically been sold out. If anyone wants anything other than lettering on board of some description, I tell them to do a web search, compare prices, get it and I’ll do the rest, fitting etc. I don’t even attempt to buy it in and resell.

Sorry Bob – but that (to me) is a sign of somebody who has given up not somebody who is fed up of ‘trade only’ now being a by-word for’ cheap to the public’.

I’d guess that many of the people calling you have no idea how much something should cost and thought "I’ll buy signs from a signmaker" only to be told – "you do do the monkey work and I’ll fit it". If that were me – I’d just phone a company that did the work for me.

And why are you recommending they go elsewhere? Don’t you need / want the work? I’m also hazarding a guess that you DO want the work otherwise you wouldn’t be complaining…so WHY give it away? Even if you only make 10% on buying goods in – it’s better than it just sitting in the bank!

I really don’t think we’ve been sold out – the market is VERY tight at the moment and suppliers need the extra income to stay open so that they can continue to supply us rather than go bust like your Norwich company.

quote :

I used to forward people to a company in Norwich, and just say mention me and you’ll get my discount, but they now seem to have ceased trading. shame they were good to work with.
I phoned a dozen or so companies once I found they’d gone, with the sole intention of finding someone I could recommend.

Talking about that Norwich company – YOU told them (the public) they’d get YOUR discount even though they weren’t trade themselves. So in effect YOU contributed to the ‘public getting trade prices’ and something about pots calling kettles black springs to mind..

[Bob Clarkson]

David, I see what you’re saying, but I’m not going to use my time and money just to make 10% on top, bearing in mind that if I do this I’ll probably be too expensive. I also run the risk of my reputation being tarnished if I recommend the wrong person, or finding I’ve bought rubbish as I’ve picked an amature, the risk is too high. If I do it my way, the customer saves a few quid, generally grateful and continues to use me for the stuff I can do.
I can’t honestly see what difference it makes if suppliers sell vinyl cheap, if you don’t have a plotter it’s not a lot of use, if you do have one, by definition you’re a signmaker. It doesn’t matter if you’re professional or totally useless, signmaker is not a "protected" word. It’s just the same as buying a hammer and calling yourself a builder.
It was the fact that printers would sell for the same money to trade as public that was my issue. This is not a request, but how many of you would sell me printed vinyl for 30% less than they will sell it to someone straight off the street.
As I don’t do vinyl printing, potentially the people on this forum that do, could be my suppliers. I totally understand the pots and kettles, but it has to work all ways.
If your response was due to the fact it’s not clear exactly what type of work I actually do, it’s purely vinyl lettering, usually light commercials, occasionally shops and signboards. I am a Signwriter by trade, but will only get brushes out if it suits me, for special jobs that require authenticity, or Rolls and Bentley coachlining.
To be honest, I don’t need or want more work, infact I dropped my website, and no longer even have an entry in yellow pages. So I’m more than happy to pass work onto other companies who can offer a good service at a fair price, then as far as I see it everyone wins.
But in answer to have I given up on the sign trade, the answers very much a yes. Things have massively changed over the years, most suppliers, used to know exactly what they were doing and selling. When phoning around for a new cutter recently, most didn’t have a clue and prices were all over the place, in some instances there would have been more knowledge and understanding if I’d bought one from Tesco.

[Stuart Miller]

It is frustrating as I have said but that is not to say I still don’t try and double up or make a reasonable mark up. I tend to spend quite a bit of time web searching for suitable products and while I am always surprised at the ease at which anyone can get low prices on the internet there are just as many selling things at prices at least double that of the low ballers. They too must make sales so I justify my mark up by comparing too these.
In fact for my customer the mark up represents computer time searching combined with product knowledge, time spent interviewing the customer on their needs and measuring up.
So sure a customer could find things cheaper than I will sell them but they would have to invest time which many small business owners do not have.

A recent sign for a small local guest house highlighted this. Both myself and the one other local sign maker were both asked to quote for a hanging sign. The GH already had and an old sign with bracket. I quoted for the sign and bracket seperately saying the old bracket was fine and only needed a coat of paint. (The Guest house owner is also a painter and decorator!). But I researched and measured up for a new bracket and visited the local steel fabricator to get a price.
later when the owner was discussing the quotes with me she complained that the other sign maker had added £45 to the price she had got herself directly from the steel fabricator.
Now I had to be careful what I said (as I had added £70) so diplomatically avoided discussing the price of the bracket I had quoted and took the time to explain how it was very different her ringing the steel fabricator and asking for a rough price to someone visiting her house measuring up, going to the steel fabricator giving him exact measurements, organising the fabrication collecting it and fitting it to her house. In time alone that would probably be 2 hours and and that she had actually got a bargain for £45 when she couldn’t even get her own husband to take an hour to paint it.
I got the job for the sign but she gave her husband a push to do the painting as she finally accepted we were only charging for work that would be done not just a bracket appearing out of thin air.

So a long winded explanation of justifying a mark up.

The thing that frustrates me is when I find a product you still dont know if it is the BEST price and that if you can find the next step back on the ladder there is a real trade supplier somewhere supplying these suppliers. You just have to accept the best price you can on the day and go with. Some you get some you lose.

[Karen Griffin]

I find a first time customer may be initially price orientated but, like Stuart demonstrates, they can often be won over through customer service . . which of course is what you never get if you are buying a small amount direct. And a personal recommendation goes a long way too.

It’s the State organisations that get me – jobsworths trying to prove their worth by ringing the supplier direct to get a ‘trade’ price then insisting they will only pay n% over that for their contract. Economically Advantageous? My A**!

[Bob Clarkson]

All my work is recommendation, as I don’t advertise anywhere. I must admit I do appear on some free sites and links etc, how exactly that happened is not my doing.

I like to think my work is good, and I think I’m pretty knowledgeable and polite, but I certainly won’t put hours into trying to locate things for a thank-you. I don’t mean that to sound harsh, but always remember in real terms, in this trade we probably earn 100% in 25% of our time. I know looking at jobs, measuring up, pricing etc all has to be done in preparation, but it’s the cutting and sticking that makes the money. So that’s all I do.

I will not go to see a job unless it’s on my way somewhere so it’s convenient, and I will only look at a van if it’s already booked in, that day to be done. While I’m working, both my work phone and mobile are switched to silent. I will then work flat out with no distraction, other than story tapes of the classics, seldom music or radio. I can then create in my own little cushioned world. I don’t even stop to eat.

Due to this extreme way of working, I’ve found that if I do two twelve to fourteen hour days a week, I can clear a weeks work. This is usually done at weekends, leaving my whole week free to run a totally different business.

Now I’ve actually written that, I can see how weird it actually sounds, but I also know how well it actually works….

[David Rogers]

Bob – it would sound weird if you were operating as a full time signmaker – it’d be verging on insane.

But as you say – your signmaking is to your schedule if and when you can be bothered and therefore gives a better perceived return…99.9% of us on here can’t operate with that luxury – we take what we can get, win some – lose some, and phones are on nearly constantly.

I won’t insult you by suggesting that it’s virtually a hobby for you – but as a means of making a living by cherry picking jobs and sending people to other suppliers it’s economically non-viable for all but those otherwise financed.

It works for you – but your priorities are probably very different from most of us in terms of signmaking as a business.

[Bob Clarkson]

I completed a full apprenticeship, the time and effort to do that is something I can’t throw away. I really don’t know if it’s a hobby or a passion now, but I still have to make signs, it’s almost an obsession in a way.

For many years, I worked ridiculous hours signmaking, relationships suffering as I’d work every Saturday and Sunday doing vans so customers didn’t loose work. Often working till 2o’clock in the morning through the week to get stuff done. I eventually grow to hate it, so changed career path totally.

Now I miss the actual signwork, the laying out and the finished job so I have to continue in some form. Thing is, you’d be amazed how much work can be done in two long days with absolutely no distraction. The way I do things now does actually work pretty well, and I can often do the same amount of work that would need a 40hr week if you allow looking at jobs and general interruptions during the working week.

Obviously I still want to earn money, but my priority is foremost the quality of what I can produce. Customers know this, which is why they will tolerate my odd approach and schedule. Thing is, because they know this, they continue to use me, and will fit in with me. This gives me a clear run to do more work, thus earning more money. I do cherry pick, but it’s more people than jobs.