newcomers, and comments about ….

[John Childs]

Hmmm.

You make some good points Hugh, but perhaps you are being a bit sensitive. 🙂

When joining ANY group, be it work related or social, it takes time to gain acceptance and earn respect.

A background of signmaking is not particularly a necessity here as often a newcomer will bring different knowledge and skills to the party and turn out be a valuable member. I could quote a couple of instances where people have joined and I wondered what we were doing entertaining them, but after while it turned out that I was wrong and that they had a contribution to make. By the same token some have proved themselves not to be worth wasting time on.

As you say, we all started once, but it took time to build our reputations and to be taken seriously. I didn’t have a problem with that.

Acceptance and respect aren’t a right, but must be earned.

[Andrew Butler]

I am relatively new to these boards and not the most prolific of posters, (due to my heavy work load not a lack of enthusiasm) but I have been involved in the sign industry all my working life. The original idea of apprenticeships was to pass on knowledge to the next generation who in return would improve on these skills and ideas and repeat the process, not a bad thing, in my opinion. If we are all to improve our skills then we must be open minded to the ideas others have to offer, however long they have been in the game.

By virtue of the fact I have taken the time to become involved on these boards I’m offering the knowledge I have gained over many years, and I don’t see the problem in doing this, so long as the people who benefit from this do the same when needed. I see this as a community, and community’s that work together are much more successful which in return benefits everyone involved. The wealth of experience available in this community is such a positive to me, and it benefits my business. As I said earlier I have been in signs all my working life, that’s over twenty years, but I have picked up tips from this group, so why should we discriminate because of someones time in the trade. If we do that, we as a group will one day be extinct, and that benefits nobody.

There are of course freeloaders in every walk of life but they have a habit of weeding themselves out, and this should not be a reason for us to stop sharing, otherwise why have a sign forum, we may as well just talk about the weather.

Hugh keep asking your questions and getting involved, you have all ready made valuable contributions to this group, so if ever I can help you I will.

I’ll have to stop now my fingers are sore 😀

Andy

[Hugh Potter]

please don’t think i’m being overly sensitive, well, just a bit maybe, but i just feel sometimes that ALL newcomers are tarred with the same brush, i know i need to earn respect, i certainly don’t expect to be treated with the same respect (as a sign writer/maker at least) as someone who has a shed load more experience than I,

i am prepared to bide my time and learn, i would have loved to do an apprenticeship with a time served writer (painter) about 14 years back, but the guy didnt want to take anyone on, seems it’s just come full circle and rather than brushes, ‘m on a computer !

i’ll ask questions when i need to, but generally try to at least try and work it out myself first, have asked a few and have been very appreciative of the help offered freely, i think it’s no less than i would gladly do for anyone here in return if i know the answers !

i just don’t want to be grouped in the same catagory as the scum who halve the price of anything i sell on ebay (at a proper price) just to undercut me ! i’ve virtually given up bothering with ebay cos of all the people who see i’ve thought of a good thing and then carve up the price, it just aint worth the hassle !

anyways, i dont mean any disrespect to anyone, its just a generalisation about they way newbies are looked upon by some.

😉

[David Rowland]

it is interesting that you suddenly came out with this Hugh, feels like something wound you up as we have had quite a few new peoples here recently?

I do try and help people and offload what I can offer, however my knowledge is limited in someways and to help learn more of the ‘constructive’ side of Sign making is valuable to me, which I am hoping my collegues and this board can guide me.

My experience is really down to using software to drive machinery, this is how I have learnt my trade and I started off in Silk Screen, then Sign Making, then CNC Plasma/Gas cutting, a bit of short run digital Litho (& book printing), then large scale programming of software advertising screens (yes, I am a geek) and returned to Sign Making (mainly digitial print side) and hoping to get more involved this and CNC routers again.

I have spent my entire life helping out people and it sometimes becomes a habbit, but it is great here, I like it a lot, the people here certainly do help out and sometimes there is a fine balance of spending time here and getting on with work, so with that rant. i best stop…

Enjoy! and be Happy

[John Cornfield]

Hugh,

If you need any help or info mate – PM email me or phone me the numbers on website.

This is what its about people!!!!

If you don’t want to help don’t bother but don’t complain about it or get all b888dy high and mighty when you do.

Yeah naive questions or basic questions are frustrating but when you were starting out if you had this resource would you use it! Of course you would if the poster does not get the answer do you think they give up no they persevere and work it out the UKSB just might help them get there quickly

Mod’s get together an decide upon a policy please.

[John Singh]

I must have missed something
This board accepts ‘newbies’ with open arms
I’ve been in the game for many years and started as a traditional signwriter but if I was to buy a digital plotter tomorrow, I’d become a ‘newbie’, since I would be gleaning this site for all the help I could get

We welcome newbies

[Hugh Potter]

dont get me wrong, i’m not saying i’ve not been made welcome, quite the opposite, and people have been extremely helpful when i’ve needed to ask for help,

my point was just that i had noticed quite a few remarks lately about people who undercut and buy cheap plotters etc, i’m not picking on anyone in general, i just dont want to be put in the same arena with class people, even though i might have initially, although unintentionally, have been one when i first started to sell stuff on ebay, even then it was to a specific market, and not the general sign industries customer base ! i just wanted to point out that everyone started somewhere, and probably took work from an established company along the way, and since alot of work is now going digital, the more established firms are heading that way, leaving the door open for thos coming in at the more basic levels of sign making,

there will always be a place for those who make cheap stickers, cos there’s always be people who want to pay 99p for a sticker, it’s our own fault cos we have neither the inclination nor the time to make these stickers and bang em out on ebay ! all the while people are doing this, it leaves bigger jobs for those who feel they can do them well.

please dont think i’m knocking the board or the people on it, it’s just an observation of mine that i felt i wanted to air,

this last week i realised just how many sign co’s there are, i must have seen 15 in a sparesly populated area of Wales alone ! but the business must be there or we wouldnt be, right ?

i know what people mean when they say about the bedroom cowboys, or whatever term is used, i just felt that i and many others, are outside that box, and want to make a successful business and earn the right to call themselves signmakers rather than ‘a guy or gal who simple sells stickers for pocket money’, there just seemed little speration betwen the two in some comments i’ve read lately, both here and on other boards !

i hope i’ve said this how i mean it now !

sorry if any offence was caused,

[Marcella Ross]

I think I must have missed something……… I haven’t seen any negativity towards newbies…… 😕 Perhaps I’ve been too dim to notice!

I am one of those members, who admittedly, gain far more from this site than I can offer. But maybe one day I might know enough to offer some advice somewhere along the line that will be helpful and constructive….. (probably a long way off!) I feel that I know very little compared to most on the boards but I don’t feel intimidated or humiliated by the things I ask. No one person knows EVERYTHING there is to know about signs but between all of us here we probably do! And what we can’t forget is that no one is forced to make a reply to a simple request for help, they do so because they want to.

If you find anyone arrogant or rude…. ignore them…. they too will need help with something one day! 😀

[Hugh Potter]

hi Marcella, i dont want to pick out certain posts, as i’m not that bothered about it, i wish i’d not mentioned it really…lol ! i dont even know who made the comments, and in hindsight, perhaps i was a little sensitive about it, i dunno ! maybe i just read too much into it,

i just feel (here we go again) that by complaining about those who ‘have just bought a cheap chinese plotter off ebay’, that some of them who will ultimately make it as a business, might be put off cos they feel they’ve bought a cheap machine and might be embarrassed about mentioning it if they read certain comments ?

the two biggest ‘industrial’ employers in the town where i grew up were both genuinely started in garden sheds, one selling fixings (screws bolts etc) and the other posh fabrics, from humble beginings can grow BIG employers, maybe not in the sign world, but ya’ll know what i mean !

[Robert Lambie]

hugh, i understand what you are saying mate, BUT… this site is the best moderated & kept in line that i know of. so much so us mods get stick for doing just that. read the say hello posts, most start by saying they joined because of how freindly they find it.
so ok, you may have read something and took a personal dislike to how it reads, but why get a bee in your bonnet and tell us we arent running the site right or the long term members arent replying in the proper tone?
i dont mean this in an off way mate, but there is only so much we mods can do.
NO, person can not be blatantly rude to another, newbie or pro, if we see a post like this we delete it, if it is continual, we contact the member regarding it. not much more we can do… or do you have an answer hugh?

some things dont suit everyone i know that, but we do our best!

quote John Cornfield:

Mod’s get together an decide upon a policy please.

do you have the answer john?

.

[Chris Hooper]

Through my experience….being everything from a hairy assed factory worker who kinda made good, to an even hairier assed marketing manager of a national company (and now a sadasssignmaker) I learned the critical value of diversity in organisations i.e everyone and I mean everyone brings with them experiences – and knowledge. Some of it is absolute tosh, and a lot is priceless. But like most thing you pick the bones and make with with it what you please. UKSB is a good forum for doing just just that. No one on the boards I reckon should ever feel that their contribution or indeed the questions asked are not valid or pertinent, because even the most experienced don’t know everything about everything. And after all its an increasing and indeed diverse membership that keeps a site like this growing, useful and interesting.

[Hugh Potter]

hi rob,
i think ya’ll do a great job, i’m not saying anything to the contrary,

i dont think it’s a case of people being rude, just perhaps not thinking before making whats probably an innocent comment about the standard of work offered by some, and about cheap imported cutters, that might possibly be read as ‘we’ve been doing it longer and have better equipment so we must be better’. i know it isnt meant as that, but it might be viewed as such by people like myself, when its been posted by several on several occasions.

i’ll look back on my work in a few years and probably cringe at what i thought was good work, infact from what i’ve learned n the last 6 months, i already do ! but there’s my point, we all started somewhere ! we all strive to improve and do the best we can, and whilst i feel the board is brilliant at welcoming and encouraging newcomers to the trade, i just picked up on a few of these comments and mentioned it here, rather than on the post i saw the last comment on, purely to keep it from getting personal as, i’m sure the comment was not neccesarily meant in the way it could be interpreted. but thought it worthy of attention.

this is, as you say, one of the best moderated boards there is, a little overly so i feel on occasion, but its here for all, not just me !

anyways, consider the bee free of my bonnet and i’ll say no more !!!!

cheers.
Hugh

[Andy Gorman]

I don’t think anyone has a problem with “newbies” as such. However, the subject of fly-by-night signmakers does rear it’s ugly head occasionally and we have a good moan about it.

I think if you look through the ‘say hello’ area, you’ll find that new members are welcomed and encouraged to join in.

The circumstances of someone’s background or working arrangements are irrelevant; I work from home but defy anyone in large industrial premises to cast aspersions upon my standards of work just because of my setup. Neither would I criticise a plumber or electrician or whoever, who genuinely wanted to get involved in signmaking, properly.

Anyway, Hugh – I think you are being too sensitive, ya big woman! 😉

[John Cornfield]

Rob I really admire the way you moderate the site without agenda.

I am not sure if there would be many others so selfless, include myself in that.

I dont have the answers.

The site is hell of a friendly i was just trying to point out to those that have or were thinking negatively towards new members, new signmakers or people even thinking of getting into signage then they are forgetting the spirit of the boards.

[Hugh Potter]

andy, it must be all that smelly soap the mrs forces me to wash with each night !!

[Robert Lambie]

hugh, i understand why some comments on work being submitted isnt exactly what everyone wants to hear. but to be honest… should we pat everyone on the back and say, well done, excellant job!… while scoffing down our cuff? 😕
i always comment fairly, (well think i do) i want to encourage folk to post their work. but if it needs constructive critisism, then i give it.
people should post to show off their work, but they will never get any better if the ones with more experience dont actualy comment on where it could have been improved. i dont think this is being rude, just helpful. ok how it is typed should be considered but you know where i am getting at?

[Hugh Potter]

i completely agree Rob, i dont think the comments were made about people on the board, but people looking in might be discouraged from joining,

some people lack the confidence which might hold them back some, whilst they shouldnt be pated on the back for everything, they need encouragement, a pal of mine is a brilliant self taught sculptor in wood, but he lacks confidence in his work, i’ve had to convince him to keep at it several times when a more established sculptor (who does it for a living) has dis’d his work, the same might go for those who have bought a cheap cutter from ebay ! whilst the encouragement on this board is second to none, one or two of these comments might stop someone from feeling brave enough to show their work.

me ? i love crit, so long as its contructive, which is all i feel i have had on here, it helps me to understand where i can improve, and therefore put me in better stead for the next job.

anyways, i’m of to bed now, still building the workshop, and will be back in thee at first light ! done all the insulaton and plasterboard, just need to finish the bench and i can move in !! at last the end is in sight !

[Robert Lambie]

good for you mate… im sure you will find it a god send of help.

[Martin Pearson]

Hugh, I’m glad to hear you have got the bee out of your bonnet!! I am no expert myself and have learnt a lot from the boards but you will always get some that will put everyone else down. You just have to ignore comments like that and get on with what is important. As Andy has said most of the comments are aimed at the fly by night people who start up do some cheap jobs never mind the quality and then go out of business. Unfortunatly you are always going to get this in any industry, problem is in ours it is usually much more visable. These people probably wouldn’t take the time or make the effort to join something like the UKSG and if they did they probably wouldn’t make any posts. These are the people that frustrate some of the people on the boards and who the comments are aimed at, I suppose in away its just them being over sensitive and taking things to heart.

[southernandy]

If you read the post in question someone else raised the issue about other trades and qualifications etc- not me.

There are loads of people on fleabay buying cheapo chinese cutters and jumping into the industry- that’s just a fact.

The discussion was regarding a lad with a kiddie on the way and lack of employment opportunities in the sign industry.

From my perspective with 50+ sign makers in my area chasing the same work it’s the newbies with no overheads and little knowledge turning out pretty awful work for stupid money which has a direct relevance to why the lad in question can’t get the position he needs- too many small shops charging unrealistic rates and not hiring full time staff.

By no means did I claim that I “know it all” and I wouldn’t be as crass to make a statement like that. What I did say is I am surprised that people can’t use their cutters or software properly- and that’s just an opinion that’s all. (where was the training from the cutter and software suppliers?)

What confused me somewhat is why someone was mentioning the need for qualifications like other trades when the purpose of this site seems to be aimed squarely at the raw newcomer getting the information they need to start a new sign business- that seems to be a contradiction in my eyes. When it comes to the “I’m more professional that you” claim it seems to me it’s the recent newcomers who move swiftly from “how do I turn it on” to “sign expert”- something I haven’t ever claimed be.

If I’ve upset anyone it wasn’t my intention and I’m surprised it’s caused such a fuss.

(mod-edit)

[Robert Lambie]

quote :

the purpose of this site seems to be aimed squarely at the raw newcomer getting the information they need to start a new sign business

Wrong, but of course your entitled to your thoughts.

.

[Martin Pearson]

Andy, I’m a bit confused by your post, I can understand your frustration about people setting up and charging stupid prices as these people don’t generally last long, knock out a lot of rubbish then sell the gear on cheap to the next person to do exactly the same thing when they go bust. It bothers me to and I think you have the right to comment on it but what I don’t understand is your comment about this site being here to give the raw newcomer the insight they need?
This site is here for all signmakers no matter how long they have been in the business and no matter how many people they employ.
I will admit that a lot of the questions come from people who are new to the business or are looking to get into the business but I would expect that as these are obviously the people who are going to have the most questions. I don’t have a problem with this because as I see it the more that can be done to encourage good design and safe practices the better.
I have been away from the site through illness for a while so I have missed some of the posts but I also don’t understand the bit about the newcomers suddenly becoming experts.

[Rodney Gold]

I think that if an area of signage becomes flooded or the barriers to entry are dramatically lowered , it’s time to get out of it. The reality of it all is that if others can undercut due to lower overheads and they do have customers willing to go with them soley for that and its eating into YOUR customer base , then its you that has the problem in that you are not catering for the market you are in or that you arent working efficiently enough. It’s actually a great spur to diversify or find niche and specialist markets where profitability is better.
In terms of mainstream signage , there are huge barriers to entry in that one needs literally 100’s of 1000’s of quids worth of machinery , the software to use it , the creativity to use it effectively , the technical skills to do so , knowledge of materials , connections within the industry , have to know the best suppliers and have to have the management and business skills to go with all that.
Cheap vinyl cutters and the like polarise the industry. Start ups get mired in the price wars and competing with myriads of others working from home etc and its difficult to break out of it cos of the general competiton and lack of profitability. The big guys just get bigger , buy more production and squeeze out the medium guys with economies of scale etc.
Its very prevalent here in SA – scores of small guys with a 610 wide vinyl cutter living from job to job with little hope of getting the big breaks , a few medium speciality cos (like myself) and then the big boys that get the lions share of the work cos they have the production machinery and staff to do so.
I really think that the days of a vinyl cutter only signmaker are limited as the market is now all about digital printing and cutting. I would never recommend anyone to enter signage this way at all – it is very much a dead end. Even if you are creative , have the business skills and knowledge and offer superior service you are still wasting yourself as you still face the lean and hungry startup competition and lowball pricing scenario. Most customers in this segment are NOT educated and do not understand the fact that you are using better materials and so forth – they want a cheap sign , after all Vinyl is cheap isnt it?
There are other avenues that are much more profitable , for example a laser engraver or to concentrate on fabricating Point of Sale stuff and so forth.
Funnily enough , albeit we have good vinyl cutters on our print and cut machinery , we do almost NO solid vinyl cutting work apart for our internal products or needs. I do a LOT of signage and if I never had a cutter , it would make very little difference to me.
In terms of helping those that come here, well most of us have been helped by others in one way or another and its good to put a bit back in , but I must say , I dont think the help here is anywhere near a “start your own signage business in an instant” level.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

I admit that sometimes when I read a newbie post, I am judgemental.
If I don’t have something nice to say, I try to keep my trap shut.
Same with the “show us your stuff” forum.
If I can offer kind suggestions, I do.

A newbie is one thing….we all started somewhere.
But a cowboy is a cowboy, and I won’t give them any advice or critique.
Not all newbies are cowboys…cowboys rarely post here anyway,
only to beg free clipart or fonts or to brag how they bought a plotter cuz their old drunk sign guy was too expensive..
I am clueless as to computers, whereas many newbies are quite knowledgeable.
Only a rare few on here ever need traditional advice.

My market is being overrun with cowboys.
I refuse to compete.
I’ll close my doors and get a real job before I lower my prices.
I have 20 years under my belt and I’m not giving away signs.
Gotta run! I’ll be late for work.
Love….Jill

[John Childs]

I’m not sure that you are entirely correct about the days of the vinyl only signmaker being numbered Rodney. Certainly, from where I am sitting, there is little evidence of that.

My experience of digital and wraps is that none of my clients want to pay for it, not the sole trader with one van nor the huge corporate with a thousand. In the latter case they soon work out that paying a thousand pounds for a printed livery as opposed to three hundred quid for a decent vinyl job adds up to serious bucks. A seven hundred pounds difference times one thousand vans divided by a three year change cycle adds over a quarter of a million pounds to their annual costs.

With some exceptions, the only place I see it being sold is to franchises, where the person doing the specifying is not the person footing the bill but as we speak I am watching a franchise operation, who formerly had a firm grip on their franchisees, disintegrating because of rebellion at the two thousand pound wraps they are supposed to use now as opposed to the previous four hundred pound vinyl livery. That’s only a small part of it and van racking and equipment is also involved as well as premises, but their previously jealously guarded image is being eroded.

I lose a few jobs to the cheapies, but I am lucky in that they cannot take the best of my business away because from a bedroom or shed they cannot cope with the volumes.

On the odd occasion where we do need digital prints then we just buy them in but for the majority of our work volume dictates that screenprint is still king. The digital revolution is passing me by! 🙂

I expect to be here for a few more years yet.

[Lorraine Clinch]

I only have a 610 cutter, Roland cx24.

A bit outdated perhaps, but works well for me. I deal almost exclusively in cut vinyls, have never been asked about vehicle wraps (there are plenty of other guys out there to do that, and I would always refer people on). I have enough work to keep me going, producing good work (I think!) and virtually all my work is word of mouth or repeat business.

Any digital prints/screen-printing I either get done outside on the customers behalf, or refer them directly on.

I would dearly like to have a print & cut (Cadet or the like), but having only been in this trade for 21 months I am still getting to grips with the more basic stuff. My brain is stuffed full of info, every day I learn something new. i go to sleep thinking about work….

Anyway. I would disagree that cut vinyl is phasing out.

[Marcella Ross]

I’m much the same as you Lorraine. I run a Mimaki 1000mm wide cutter and no printer. Again I work more or less entirely with cut vinyl graphics and any printing I need I buy in or refer them on.
I agree wholeheartedly with John, there are few small companies who want to pay for digital graphics, they may like the look but not the cost. I did a small job this morning which required a little digital printing, tartan vinyl, but these jobs aren’t as frequent as ordinary cut vinyl by a long shot. Not my customer base anyway.
I think there is a long life left in cut vinyls yet……… when plotters became the norm everyone thought that was the end of the traditional signwriter, perhaps to large degree it was. But the demand is still there for that too, I think the same will go for us ‘old fashioned’ vinyl guys! 😀

[Janine Chrispin]

My dad was a traditional signwriter. His stuff was brilliant! Life size cut outs of people painted. In fact he even signwrighted the first concord!

Janine

[Marcella Ross]

quote Janine Chrispin:

In fact he even signwrighted the first concord!

Janine

What a great claim to fame!!!!!!!

[Rodney Gold]

Actually , wraps are not at all big business , its printed and die cut graphics that are . We hardly do wraps cos of the price etc , but we print and cut huge amounts of “letters” etc for the trade. For example doing letters with fades or chrome effects or just matching a specific colour etc. My price for print/cut /lam to the trade is actually pretty cheap , about 60 quid per sq meter weeded with an overlam and app tape on a 7 yr vinyl, 1440 dpi and a 3 yr warrantee.
So a 1m x 1m “cut” sign cost the guy 60 quid (assuming perfect artwork and no rediculous weeding) and all he has to do is apply it. To get the colours and effects like drop shadows etc on normal vinyl is very difficult and requires registration and multiple layers if at all possible. The customers love the fact they get something different. The downside of course is that one cant print on some of the more exotic vinyls like carbon fibre , flourescents etc – but one can print just about any colour , pattern or texture.
An average back window is about 1m x 500 or less , costs about 30 quid and the guy who buys it from me has to do no work at all barring application. All he has to do is mail me the artwork and collect. I think its a better deal than setting up the cutter , cutting the vinyl , weeding it , putting on the ap tape etc – and that would only be for a single solid plain vanilla colour.
If the sign guys works it out stupidly , it may seem pricey – as decent vinyl is only 5-7 quid per sq m , but if he works out time and effort etc – its not that expensive. In that time he can go out canvassing and perhaps get another few jobs.
The sign franchises here suck , most of them are not even clued up re materials etc , most use central production houses and delivery is in the order of weeks , the ones that have approached us to do work for them are not worth dealing with , the orders are mickey mouse and they make their delivery promises your problem. Generally they get no major contract type jobs due to their pricing and a lot of their trade is walk in stuff like a4 size house signs etc. I have had nothing but hassles from them and refuse to do most of their work.
a lot of my customers combine stuff , for example for me to print and cut large solid areas is not cheap – so they use their vinyl for that and my digi print letters for the fancy bits.

[Lorraine Clinch]

I had a customer last week, only wanted a £30 job, 5mm foamalux/straightforward vinyl lettering. He had been quoted over £90 by a large company about 10 miles away.

They have (apparently) got a notice up stating that non-account holders have a minimum charge of £75! Whats that about then?

Me, I’m only too pleased to do anything, (to do with signmaking that is!!!) from a fiver up-everythings invoiced, accounted for & banked, customer gets receipt. This, more than anything, I think, seperates the ‘quick buck cowboys’ from those of us who are serious about our work.

OOOOPS! Did my soapbox make a sudden appearance then? S’OK, put it away now 😀

[Andy Gorman]

I did a job this week for a shop 25 miles away. The customer said he couldn’t get anyone local to even come out and look at it. It seems the medium size companies are becoming unable to serve smaller businesses. That’s alright with me, I got the job, and it wasn’t pennies! A lot of our local sign companies are taking on work for bigger contracts etc. so I guess they haven’t the time, or it isn’t profitable enough to do the smaller stuff.

[John Childs]

Lorraine,

It’s about a large company not wanting to do that type of work and deliberately pricing themselves out of that market.

There are minimum costs involved in a job, however large or small, things like admin and accounting for instance. We should all have a minimum charge (needless to say we don’t yet) and something like £25 or £30 is not unreasonable. At £75 pounds they are making a statement.

[Marcella Ross]

quote Lorraine Clinch:

Me, I’m only too pleased to do anything, (to do with signmaking that is!!!) from a fiver up:D

:rofl: so glad you clarified that point Lorraine!

I have a minimum charge of £25 – regardless of how tiny the job may be (again I too am talking signwriting! 😀 ) I look at it this way – a plumber, joiner, mechanic etc., all have an hourly rate of anything from £40 an hour upwards. We don’t think anything of it as we require their skill, expertise and knowledge to do a job that we cannot do. Therefore we mustn’t sell ourselves short – we’re skilled workers too. If someone could make their own vehicle graphics they would, but they can’t so they come to us.
Besides if my window cleaner can scoot round my house and charge me £15 for the pleasure, I’m not going to sell my wares too cheaply! Oh god…. this isn’t sounding much better is it Lorraine!

[Andy Gorman]

The way this thread is going Marcella, I’m thinking of opening my penny jar. I reckon there’s a couple of quid in there.

Go on, you can slap my face, I deserve it.

[Marcella Ross]

Just a couple of quid Andy? …… In that case keep the lid on your penny jar! 😀

[Andy Gorman]

Ah, so we’ve established one thing, now we’re just negotiating on price!

Checkmate.

😀 😉

[David Rowland]

Our’s is about £35 ish. minimum charge However everyone has to pay on pickup, or they not getting it (the sign that is)

[Lorraine Clinch]

My hubbie, Geoff is arguing with me, says I should have a minimum charge of at least £15.

Trouble is, I can’t see my customers going for that if they are after a tiddly job.

But I must remember – job cost v customers perception of the value of the job… (:)

[David Rowland]

I guess it depends what part of the country you are in and your competors and how big you business is. However we would not invoice for £15, not worth it as the designer/manager guy may spend 1 hour on it, then the guy who runs the cutter (20minutes) and then applyer may take another 20minutes, then the secretary to ring the client (10minutes) and prepare the invoice, then credit card charges. We possible make a fiver in the end, no way.

[Marcella Ross]

He’s right Lorraine. You just politely tell your customer that there is a minimum charge of £15 or whatever to cover your time and materials, it’s very rare that anyone questions it. After all you’ve got a computer, plotter, software, vinyl that all has to be bought and paid for! Nevermind utility bills that go along with running these!

[Russ]

here’s my bit,

If I was someone who came across this forum and had no connection whatsoever with signs, would I be tempted to take up sign making in a small way to start with safe in the knowledge of what this forum has to offer. (YOU BET YOUR AR$E I WOULD)

it’s all part and parcel of the game of life, this is not a rehearsal you have to take whatever opportunity comes your way, this usually means making your own luck.

If you give someone a quote they can ring other sign companys and ask them for a price and compare them, let’s say try running your own business in the building trade, then give a customer a quote.

example: you have quoted £300.00 for fitting a new front door, the first thing they say is HOW MUCH, I can get a new door from B & Q for £50.00. already they are working out how much they think you are making, none of my customers know how much I pay for sign materials.

my point is there is still lots of room to make a few bob even though there are more sign makers coming into the market place.

I for one do not take this forum for granted many thanks to all

Russ

[Hugh Potter]

i agree with much said in the past few posts, customers dont really have much idea of the cost of our materials so we can be a bit generous with the mark ups, i now charge a tenner per linear metre of 610 vinyl, and £20-30 per hour depending on how i think the final figure looks ! it seems to be right, i don’t have a specific minimum price, i guess i dont do much for less than £30 a go, and then that’ll be using up offcuts so i can afford to let it go a little,

when i go mobile and do the drag race shows etc, i have a minimum price of a fiver, that way, even a tiny logo that takes a minute or two to find on the clip art discs, and five mins max to cut, weed and tape, nearly everything cut on site is from offcuts that have already been paid for, and 7-8 jobs an hour makes a minimum of 35-40£, i think my last show took around £200 a day, minus fuel and trade pitch cost and i took about £300 overall, not bad for a couple of days using up nearly all my offcuts !

[John Singh]

Andy (Big G) said:

quote :

I did a job this week for a shop 25 miles away. The customer said he couldn’t get anyone local to even come out and look at it. It seems the medium size companies are becoming unable to serve smaller businesses. That’s alright with me, I got the job, and it wasn’t pennies! A lot of our local sign companies are taking on work for bigger contracts etc. so I guess they haven’t the time, or it isn’t profitable enough to do the smaller stuff.

Basically that’s it
We all fall into a niche of a sort
The big guys shouldn’t be worried about the small guys undercutting cos they don’t want the work anyway – more a nuisance to them hence as some have said, they out-price it ridiculously and if the customer says: OK when can you do it, they don’t mind doing it. But if they lose the job to a small guy its no skin of their nose.