New transit rear panel fill. Print media

[David Hammond]

I just use a polymeric air release.
I really like Mactac JT9500, with the matching laminate, it is very conformable and cuts and weeds nicely too.
http://www.mactacgraphics.eu

[Pane Talev]

I had a fail on Metamark M7 white air release wrapping a rear window on Renault Kangoo last week.
Did a dry installation. Came off a week after installation. I re-did the job and used some heat. I Hope this will last now.

Also wondering if I should use some higher grade vinyl for such jobs.

[David Hammond]

Interesting as I use M7A for similar applications, and have no issues that I know of.

Did you use knifeless tape to cut the panel?

[Martyn Heath]

Looks to me to be on glass rear windows of the van as theres no recess

[Simon Worrall]

If you have to ask the question your not charging enough.

Only use wrap vinyl or cast vinyl on a car exterior.

– In my opinion.🤣

[Martyn Heath]

your actually 100% correct simon. Works been dead this year so ive trimmed some fat off the prices which…………leaves me questioning materials instead of over going on the safe side.

This week it has picked up so hopefully no more low quotes to put food on the table

[David Hammond]

I disagree with it needing to be a cast/wrap vinyl.

A quick scroll through my photos and all of these are produced using a Quality polymeric, typically M7, or 551.
Or digitally polymeric with matching laminate. This isn’t for a cost perspective, but the polymeric is suitable for these flat applications.

Anything going over a recess, then a cast vinyl would be my choice. My issue is with some of these “Hybrid” wrapping films, which aren’t a true cast.

NB, I’ve done over 12 of the redbun vans, and have just got an order for another 14. Allen’s I’ve been working with for a decade, both DPM and Firetech are returning customers, with no issues.

Obviously, I’m UK based, so the climate is different to the Southern hemisphere 🤣

+2 More Photos

[Martyn Heath]

👍👍

[RobertLambie]

@pane-talev1I

In the past few months, I have noticed on at least 3 occasions, “different people” mentioning “air release” vinyl but also mentioning wet application, or in your case Pane, you did not, you just confirmed that you installed it dry. 👍

“Just in case” some people consider a wet application while using air-release vinyl.
Do NOT ever use wet application fluid or chemical of any description to install any type of air-release vinyl. Even if a sales rep tells you it is OK, it is not, they have no clue what they are talking about.

[RobertLambie]

@pane-talev1

Most decent brands of polymeric should be perfectly fine for flat panel work.
Unless I am installing vinyl during warm weather in summer, “I always” apply heat over installed graphics.
In a nutshell, heat promotes adhesion!

So, why/how can a flat panel fail in the base of a flat panel?

If something is installed in a recessed flat area as you are showing, there shouldn’t be any issues.
However, things that affect the vinyl adhesion on vehicles can be caused by some of the following…

* Lack of pressure and surface friction when being applied.
* Wet application.
* Cold metal surface of the vehicle.
* Knifeless Tape cutting of the vinyl.
* Pressure Washing within a week of installation.
* Air-release adhesive system, (during freezing weather conditions)

some may be surprised to see knifeless tape listed. It is a great tool to have in your box, but there are some issues that can arise from time to time.

Using knifeless tape, you are reverse-cutting the vinyl by dragging a filament thread backwards through the face of the vinyl. You cannot see it, because it is so small, but you are creating a “LIP” anywhere you are cutting the vinyl. This lip is microscopic but can be visible depending on how clean the cut is.

secondly, when you pull the tape out from under the edge of the vinyl, you can sometimes leave some adhesive residue from the tape. this residue is a bit like “post-it” adhesive, it is a non-sticky gum adhesive. anyway, this can be left behind, trapped under the vinyl around the edge.

Now, worst case scenario…
* You have a Lip created in your cut, along the top of the panel.
* You have some adhesive residue left behind from using the knifless tape.
The lip will act as a shelf to hold rainwater running down the van from the roof.
The residue adhesive will make this situation much worse. But it will happen even if the adhesive is not present.
see the attached images for reference if only water is sitting on the lip.

If we add “cold metal” of the vehicle body, into the mix. A failure will happen much faster!

This is because there is much less resistance of moisture gathering on the lip. so the vinyl panel begins to come away.

If we add “air release vinyl” into the mix, it could happen faster again if the moisture is able to spread down the cavity of the air channels. if air can travel down the channels, so can water!

Solution

Heat and pressure!
As soon as a panel has been installed into the recess of the vehcile. It is very important that you do the following simple excercise. using a squeegee with a felt edge or your thumb inside a wrapping glove.
warm up the parimetre of the panel you have installed, and while you do it, “in a dragging, not pushing” motion. apply pressure to the edge of the vinyl panel.
this will help reduce or remove the possible micro-lip created by the knifless tape. it will also help bond the vinyl around the edge, preventing any possible water creaping under the vinyl.
It will also help collapse the air channels in the adhesive, again preventing the water being able to travel in the air channels.

[Pane Talev]

@RobertLambie

I installed dry, correct.

I got into a stupid habit not to heat the vinyl after finishing my work with slightly curved panels using Matamark MD7A and MD5A and this is the cause of my failure.

[Pane Talev]

@RobertLambie @DavidHammond @MartynHeath @Simon-Worrall1

This question rings in my ears…

We say flat panel, but is not flat panel. It is curved / domed panel or curved / domed glass.

The rear window of a Renault Kangoo, Mercedes Citan or Ford Transit and similar is not flat – it is curved / domed.

All my vinyl failings are on similar curved glass (some mentioned above)

Metamark MD5 Air Release only goes on flat panels or shop windows from now on in my workshop. (until I finish what I have) Then I will not stock the air release version.

Side glass is ok. I haven’t registered a fail. Side glass is not domed in all 4 direction. Only domed top to bottom.

“Polymeric self adhesive vinyl suitable for flat or slightly curved surfaces are ideal for long-term internal and external applications.” – I do not believe this statement from the manufacturer.

[David Hammond]

You’re indeed correct, the transit isn’t ‘flat’, but I don’t really call it a wrap, and feel a true cast is excessive.

You mention going onto Glass, I wonder if that is the cause of the issue in someway?

[Pane Talev]

@DavidHammond

I was asking myself that question. Why is it falling only on a glass panel – never failing on a metal in-panel.

Is it the rough edge of the glass? No idea.

[David Hammond]

I’ve had failures on glass too with M7A, although it only appeared to be following snow and on rear screens.

Looking at the data sheets, there’s no difference between M7 & M7A adhesion to glass after both 20mins, and 24 hrs.

[Pane Talev]

@DavidHammond

I actually believe the opposite.

I think M7 will outlast M7A on a curved glass. The only reason why I use the air release version is that I can install it easier on my own. With helper I will install M7 on rear ford transit glass window, dry application, and I have a feeling it will last and not fail. Only M7A fails in such cases.

I have a feeling M7 sticks more. Yes, I know what Metamark says.

[RobertLambie]

@pane-talev1

my views and opinions on this are very long-winded, my reply here could go on for hours, I will save you the boredom, mate. 🤣

In short…

these panels are gradually curved. i agree!
there are two types of curves, convex and concave. it all depends on the “severity of the curve”.

“concave” recesses tend to be the most demanding. This is normally where the likes of a Cast film should be used. But if this is not a sharp recess and very gradual over a big area, a good polymeric “in the right hands” can manage and will stay in place.

The same applies with “convex” it is all about the severity of the shape, but in general, you tend to get away with more on convex-shaped surfaces. hence why the rear window areas and panel inlays on vehicles should effortlessly copy if using a good brand of polymeric.

The part that annoys me and has done from the beginning is that many manufacturers that do not have vinyl “casting” lines, Pimped-up their polymeric film and began selling it as a “car wrapping” vinyl. why? well, for the same reasons I listed above. they reckoned that only commercial vans had sever recesses and demanding shapes. So the Poly should cope ok on cars!?!
What they never consider, is that “most” vinyl applicators and even wrappers, do not fully understand the limits of vinyl. How it should be handled, blah blah blah. Even the best wrapping casts on the market are pushed far beyond their intended purpose by poor installers.
so lets take these same so-called wrappers with limited knowledge. they see these car wrapping vinyls advertised at half the price, what really did the manufacturers “think” was going to happen?

“it is all about selling vinyl” But as soon as the fails begin, it is you and I that are to blame!
The unfortunate reality is though, “it is us, that is to blame”. We have an undereducated industry with some magical products that really don’t do what they say on the tin!
And where have we zoomed off into now? PPF and PPF coloured wrapping films!
“good grief, charlie brown!” 🙄

[Jeff]

some van rear window areas are pretty much flat. some have a domed surface and can be tricky to apply over without creases or wrinkles. but i have never seen or had vinyl failing in these areas. 🤔