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Metamark Vinyls – Lifting on Vehicles
Been having a few customers coming in over the last couple of weeks with vinyl lettering coming off there vehicles.
Most cases it has just been a couple of letters but all the same not a problem we normally encounter.
We use mainly Metamark vinyls, just wondering if anyone else had been having the same problem?
One or two admitted to scraping ice off rear windscreens and damaging it that way but the other have not done so.
We have had some extreme weather up here since Christmas with heavy snow and temps -7 over night, etc so not sure if it is the frost that is causing this or what.Any thoughts would be great !!
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I find newly fitted vinyl graphics are prone to lifting when its been snowing. The snow sits on the bonnet or roof and it becomes brittle and lifts. I use mainly MacCal and had a one a couple of weeks ago. Nothing you can do this time of year just advise the customers if its really cold or snowy that it might happen and to get in touch with you if it does.
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Are you fitting the vinyl dry, or wet?
We’ve just stripped the 4th car of 6 we did using Metamark vinyl, and the rear windows have been utter swines to get it off.
Called into a customers last week, and saw a lorry we signed up over 2 years, 200,000 miles later and it’s weathered surprisingly well.
I’ve not experienced vinyl lifting.
Was it the same colour vinyl?
Was it from the same roll?
Was it their air release vinyl? -
We have fitted dry.
Various colours , standard vinyls not air release.
Mainly from vehicles fitted since December but a couple from earlier last year too.
Mainly Bonnets and a few rear windscreens.Cheers folks
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The problem is the Snow, ive had to go back to this Road Sweeper , it had been on a few years but the snow was settled on top of the letters when they scraped the snow off all the red lettering had come off but not the black , so could be a vinyl life problem or the brand, we tend to use different brands between Hexis, Avery, Intercoat and Metamark, I can’t remember which one this was though!
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Don’t think it’s the vinyls but is caused by the snow partially melting and turning into ice and bonding with the vinyl. Then when it gets removed it takes chunks of vinyl off with it. That’s what I reckon anyway, this has happened to me in the past and that was my conclusion at the time.
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Well I’ve joined this club. Left Thursday looking as it should. Welded to a back window and happy as Larry.
Returned this morning…. (depressed faced)
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What vinyl was used? Metamark 4 series or 7 series?
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We’ve joined the club too.
Had a customer e-mail about some lettering on their vehicle coming off. 😆
Turns out it was when they wiped the snow off the rear window.
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Still curious to know what series is this vinyl, economy, 4 or 7 series? I never put series 4 on vehicles (since 2004). In my opinion this post should be deleted / amended as doesn’t properly tell a story, thread just says “Metamark vinyls – lifting on Vehicles”
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I had a similar experience with 3M 50 series on a rear window of a pickup. Turned out to be a hydrophobic coating on the glass, with the lack of a rear wiper more manufacturers are using it. Just a thought.
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We too only use series 7, the cost saving isn’t worth the risk.
Our customer admitted this happened when wiping the snow from it… the customers no idiot and I know wouldn’t have used a scraper.
I’m fairly sure this was the air escape version too.
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Having recently switched to m7 I was alittleworried, but nothing’s come back yet.
Has Metamark been made aware of this or made a statement yet?
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I called them a couple of years ago when we had similar problems. They took back the remainder of the roll for testing, called me back & said the vinyl isn’t faulty, I must be fitting incorrectly. I now use the best polymeric Spandex have for pretty much everything flat, coloured vinyl is oracal cast & been very happy since. Think Metamark made a big mistake there.
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Incidentally, I had been getting through 5 or 6 rolls of MD5 & month, never ordered anything less than M7 on colours, I never skimped for a few pence, purely to remove the temptation for me or staff to use a shorter life film when caught short ( I think that’s crossed all of our minds when you have the perfect color in stock but the wrong grade )my average monthly bill was around £2500 so don’t think I was their biggest client by any means, but, if I have an unhappy customer who spends £500 month in, month out, I will try hard to keep them.
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Having worked in a harsh environment for the last 5 years (finland) with winter temps down as far as -35c, i can say that i have only had 1 job come back. Winter here consists of 1m plus of snow on the ground from december to april. I do a lot of lorrys and machinery which work in hard conditions.
I only use Avery vinyl. 700 or 800 if needed. Recently got into my own printing and i use mpi2000.
If i have to do a job outside i wont work in anything under -5c in which i use Rapid Tac 2 to help set the glue off. Mostly vehicles are done indoors with temps 10-15c. I then try and give them atleast an hour plus before they go outside into god know what -10 – 35c.In my opinion snow isnt really the problem, its the conditions they are being done in or the quality of the vinyl. If the vinyl is set right and fitted right then the snow cant penetrate under the edges to create these problems.
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If we forget about the brand of vinyl being used here for the moment…
Every vinyl has specified installation temperatures which most of us, "myself included" do not "always" follow by the book.
There is no point us complaining after the event if we do not follow the proper procedure.
I fully understand the frustration of this happening, it has happened to us around 3 times over the cold months just there.
What was the vinyl? Oracal 551 and Oracal 751. It was not the vinyl though, it was our install and after install procedure.
I know in during these cold months its very difficult due to the cold, rain etc making operating our businesses very difficult. but the pattern showing just in this thread alone is that its not Metamark, it is the weather.I am not in any way just jumping to their defence, I do not use their cut vinyl film but occasionally will use their digital film.
Back to the installing of any vinyl in cold weather…
When you apply graphics to the surface of a cold vehicle, the vinyl will instantly become stiff to use, brittle and easily torn. The adhesive becomes hard and will not adhere.
Room temperature plays a big part, but surface temperature of a metal van is more important!
You may have a warm workshop, but you pull a metal van in from rain, snow or freezing temperatures outside.
That vans metal panels will be "below minus" regardless of the workshop it now sits in. This will take many hours to gradually come up to the required temp recommended to adhere vinyl to.
There is no quick solution to this for the majority of us, but you can take simple steps to help prevent fails.Once the vehicle is inside and dried or prepped for the vinyl install, heat the panel you are about to apply the graphics too! you could do this with…
* An Infrared Heater
* A hand held heat gunthis wont take long and using a surface laser temp gauge you will easily see when at the required temp or there about.
at this point you can start positioning and applying your graphics.
Once your graphics have been installed and application tape removed.
using your heat gun, go back over the graphics and heat the same area until you can feel heat in the vehicle panel. not just the surface of the vinyl. once you have done this, then move to the next area of the vehicle and repeat the process.
Yes this does make the installation a bit longer, but the bottom line is you will prevent fails like we are reading about in this thread.Squeegee:
Another factor many will not take into account is the squeegee you use when installing graphics.
We are using "pressure sensitive" vinyl film. But 8/10 vinyl installers will use a felt or felt edged squeegee, rather than the nylon edge. This is because there is less friction and makes the application a bit easier. However, the vinyl requires that extra bit of pressure and friction heat you cannot get via a felt edge squeegee. So do yourself a favour, each time you get each section of your vinyls installed, flip the squeegee to the nylon edge and firmly go back over it. this pressure and friction heat will help the adhesive bond better to the vehicle.
You maybe thinking "rubbish", fair enough, but have you ever been squeegee’ing and your knuckle brushes across the application tape and you burn the skin straight off it? Painful it is! 😉over and above the most likely cause for the fails.
adhesive system:
Some are saying in this thread they have been using vinyl with an air release adhesive system.
I forget the exact details of this, so don’t quote me… but around 15 years ago there was a kick-up in America over fails using Avery vinyl. from memory the issue was the "cut vinyl" graphics had air release adhesive system on it.
In the severe weather during winter, moisture was getting into the "channels of the adhesive" over night the tiny amounts of moisture would freeze and expand. this would happen continually day/night. as a result, the vinyl would fail and letters or parts of letters would simply fall off the surface of the vehicle.
I recon this issue that happened in the states is plausible, but i think the whole issue of the vehicle being cold when the vinyl was applied to begin with, is the most likely culprit for the fails. Keeping in mind this was 15+ years ago…anyway, these are just my views and opinions… its very easy to point blame at the material, and i am not in anyway saying to rule the vinyl out. but we need to look at our application and business practices first. sometimes the answer is under our noses or we are ignorant to the problem we can cause. "myself included".
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We have a heated workshop, this job was fitted at a dealership.
My question about air release is that I find the metascape has a lower initial grab. Perhaps I imagine it.
I don’t think it is a brand specific issue.
Applicator error, perhaps I didn’t fit these.
Fitting conditions out our control.This is the first issue we have experienced, and snow is a factor. To us it’s an isolated case, will be fixed at no cost to the customer.
I’d be interested to know the cause though.
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Metamark have been very helpful. Have had several conversations with their technical support team.
Doesn’t appear to be a problem with the vinyls.
We usually always fit our vehicles out in our own workshop and the few we have had problems with have been fitted here. We have a good heating system in our workshop and always clean dry and heat panels too when required. We aren’t really any further forward as we use the same fitting/cleaning technique as we always have done. We have changed our cleaning process slightly on recommendation from guidelines from Metamark and have changed our cleaning product in the hope that this helps. Fingers crossed !
Thanks for all the input guys ! -
Good day,
I use Metamark for over 10 years now. Never a complain or a van being returned to me for "failed" areas.
I have now registered the first fail with Metamark M7.
Vehicle in question is ford transit – (45 ish degree area above front windscreen)
Job was done a year ago in May. Indoor. Ideal working conditions.
I do blame the snow, however this makes me nervous as I offered 2 year warranty.
So, I’m changing the logo next week. Rest of graphics on bonnet and elsewhere are spotless.
How do I protect my self in future regarding similar situation?
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Anyone have similar experiences with different brands vinyl- (Metamark M7 equivalent) on these areas? Above windscreen- on windshield where snow can seat much longer?
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do you have any pictures of the fail?
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The vinyl is coming off on the top side on almost all letters (5-10mm in a year)
Bonnet and rest of the van is immaculate.
Top cut vinyl is applied on flat area. (no recess)
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Exactly the problem we have been experiencing and only on high tops & bonnets.
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Could screenwash be the problem?
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Having the same issue with Avery vinyl. Really hateful.
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Hi Bernard. What series Avery?
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Could it be a chemical that’s left on there for too long? A lot of “hand car washes” use cheap nasty chemicals that should be used for cleaning alloy wheel brake deposits all over the vehicle or traffic film remover, easier for them to get the vehicle clean quicker but they’re very aggressive chemicals especially if not washed off quick enough.
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Avery 700 Pane. Agree Alex one of these car washes opened beside us & we started washing our wrapped van of 2 years there. Over the last few months the 3m wrap has started lifting around the the edges. This problem only started when we changed car wash. A customer will never admit that though & just want it fixed for free [emoji85]
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Thanks Bernard. This is a stupid problem to have. Makes me think to stop giving warranty for these problem areas.
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I had another Metamark M7 fail.
Area: The bonnet of my car.
Top 5-10mm from almost every letter in red vinyl was undone. (Circled) white vinyl is ok. Both vinyl ls are M7.
Side and back are ok.
Job was done nearly 3 years ago.
In my opinion, time (3 years) has nothing to do with this.
I went skiing at around 1600m. Car was parked there for 7 days.
First day snowed and car was covered with about 500mm snow.
Next 7 days the temperatures during the day where 3-8 Celsius and snow was melting.
But during the night -8 to -10. This is when the melting snow froze and did the damage.Do you have any suggestions?
What series vinyl will hold on a bonnet and roof?
How long warranty you give to your clients?
Will be nice to hear from people who have workshop in cold places where snow is affecting vinyl.
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Is the vinyl underneath the same grade?
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All Metamark M7 series . Never use M4.
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I personally won’t use a polymeric for cut text anymore, for the difference in cost, Avery & Oracal cast wins for me for peace of mind. I haven’t used Metamark for years now & have had no real problems like this since switching.
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Just trying to work out how the bonnet is done, is it just two layers of vinyl? White and red?
Is any of it air release?
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quote Alex Crosbie:Just trying to work out how the bonnet is done, is it just two layers of vinyl? White and red?
Is any of it air release?
1 layer cut vinyl in white
1 layer cut vinyl in red
Standard non-air release M7 -
If the red above is fine then I would question what the difference is, is it the same colour and roll etc. If there’s no difference then there must be another factor.
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quote Alex Crosbie:If the red above is fine then I would question what the difference is, is it the same colour and roll etc. If there’s no difference then there must be another factor.
White vinyl is ok.
Red vinyl has failed. -
quote Kevin Mahoney:I personally won’t use a polymeric for cut text anymore, for the difference in cost, Avery & Oracal cast wins for me for peace of mind. I haven’t used Metamark for years now & have had no real problems like this since switching.
Thanks Kevin,
What series do you recommend I use?
(Avery and Oracal)
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Hi pane. Im a user of Avery 700 and live and work in one of the most harshest conditions in europe. My work has to withstand temps of -35c and 1m of snow on the ground. Over the 6 years of being here and doing vans etc ive only had a couple of issues which 9 times out of 10 are the back window. Which gets covered in snow and ice from the road.
I cant comment on the MD7 but polymeric has been fine for me over the years. -
quote Martyn Heath:Hi pane. Im a user of Avery 700 and live and work in one of the most harshest conditions in europe. My work has to withstand temps of -35c and 1m of snow on the ground. Over the 6 years of being here and doing vans etc ive only had a couple of issues which 9 times out of 10 are the back window. Which gets covered in snow and ice from the road.
I cant comment on the MD7 but polymeric has been fine for me over the years.Morning Martin.
The M7 fails I have recorded so far are only on bonnets and roofs (cut vinyl on vertical areas)
No fails on horizontal areas like van panels and back windows.
As commented before in this thread by other member, Avery 700 fails on vertical areas in parts on the world where there is snow.
All these years I remove Metamark M7. When removing M7 vinyl is thick and removes clean. This make me think that I maybe solve my problem as Kevin says, with good cast.
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Have you tried Oracal 751?
It cuts and weeds really well, the cost is a little more than M7 though.Might be worth looking at the technical specification of any vinyl you’re looking to change to as I’m pretty sure the warranty period is on vertical applications, from memory horizontal applications are generally half the life length due to the extra exposure to UV.
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quote Alex Crosbie:Have you tried Oracal 751?
It cuts and weeds really well, the cost is a little more than M7 though.Might be worth looking at the technical specification of any vinyl you’re looking to change to as I’m pretty sure the warranty period is on vertical applications, from memory horizontal applications are generally half the life length due to the extra exposure to UV.
Thank you Alex. Much appreciated. That is a very good point about horizontal and vertical applications.
I will do a test with Oracal 751 on the roof, together with some other recommendation that I get here on this thread. -
751 is one of the best vinyls you can get for the price imho.
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quote Simon Worrall:751 is one of the best vinyls you can get imho.
My choice too until you have to take it off!
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We warrant vehicle graphics we install using Metamark 7 Series, for 3 years.
I’ve had 1 failure, and that was due to the snow, it only happened on the rear screen of the vehicle.
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I would only use cast vinyl for the temperature extremes a car has to go through.
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quote Simon Worrall:I would only use cast vinyl for the temperature extremes a car has to go through.
Every car I do here in Switzerland will thick that box hence me looking for a solution.
1) Winter lots of snow – plus vehicles go up in the mountains/ ski resorts / closer to the sun
2) Summer – the same -
751 highly over rated we found it under performed especially on horizontal areas, then a absolute nightmare to remove.
suppliers at the time no help either.
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quote Pane Talev:quote Simon Worrall:I would only use cast vinyl for the temperature extremes a car has to go through.
Every car I do here in Switzerland will thick that box hence me looking for a solution.
1) Winter lots of snow – plus vehicles go up in the mountains/ ski resorts / closer to the sun
2) Summer – the sameCharge a bit more and use 3M 180mc. That is all I ever use now. It is air release and never lets you down.
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quote Simon Worrall:Charge a bit more and use 3M 180mc. That is all I ever use now. It is air release and never lets you down..
If 3M 180mc works – I can see this happening. (I ordered a sample and will cut same artwork and apply on the roof and bonnet) Otherwise, Metamark is good all-rounder. Price, weeds, applies, removes very good.
I’m not planing to stop using Metamark M7. I ‘m just trying to cover myself at the warranty I offer. When I quote 3M prices, people run away. 3M 180cv2 cost 30 sterlings per meeter at 1220mm.
Hope we get heavy snowfall for 2 reasons. 1) To test vinyl and 2) to ski more 😉
Living / working in Dubai many years ago, I remember all vinyls had 1 year warranty. Some vans I do stay in places around 1500 meters. This is where my car and another car failed at around 1500 meters . Lost of snow, car staying on one place for a week. Worm temperatures during day, -10, -15 in the night.
Simon, do you get snow where you are? Have you registered a fail on bonnet or roof areas with 3M 180mc?
Is your recommendation based on personal experience – 3M 180mc and you get snow and gold weather?
Is your recommendation based on the 3M 180mc being expensive and therefore very good and "known to be the best" as a brand? -
Sure we get snow here in the south island, Pane.
I have never had a fail due to the material.
I used to use Oracal 751 all the time, which is excellent but now I use 3M exclusively (unless a colour is not available)
Although more expensive, customers have heard of 3M and I find if I offer them the choice they will always choose 3M, and happily pay the extra.
Nobody, except a signmaker knows of Metamark.
And M7 is a calendered vinyl, not a cast vinyl. I wouldnt use it on a car. -
quote Simon Worrall:Sure we get snow here in the south island, Pane.
I have never had a fail due to the material.
I used to use Oracal 751 all the time, which is excellent but now I use 3M exclusively (unless a colour is not available)
Although more expensive, customers have heard of 3M and I find if I offer them the choice they will always choose 3M, and happily pay the extra.
Nobody, except a signmaker knows of Metamark.
And M7 is a calendered vinyl, not a cast vinyl. I wouldnt use it on a car.Thank you Simon.
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At those temperatures you dont need any abrasion from moving snow.
The calendered vinyl shrinks a LOT and curls up at the edges.
The cheap glue freezes and loses its stick. -
Today a Swiss sale rep with many years in the business told me that any brand cast cut vinyl will fail on a bonnet and certain weather / bonnet heat situations. He has a number of Oracal and 3M cast vinyl failing when the bonnet is hot, goes in the mountain – gets snow right away – freezes over night – and than car stays there for a week with day / night, freeze / defrost situations.
I officially no longer warranty bonnets and roofs.
As always, I like to hear from as much people as possible.
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