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  • Lyson ink and Tiara Opal and Ecosolvent +

    Posted by mats_k on September 12, 2004 at 7:07 pm

    Hi,

    I am a quite new user to this forum. I have been reading many of the postings here and have found them very interesting. My company owns a Rockhopper 1 ( buyed it as a Gerber Jetser) I print with Ecosolvent + ink.

    Lately we have seen that a new machine, the Tiara with Lyson ink starts to enter the market.
    Is there any benefit with the Lyson ink compared to the Ecosolvent +?,
    roumur says that the Tiara with Lyson inks prints directly onto uncoated media. It also states that the Lyson ink has a wider colorgammut by 26 %.

    With Ecosolvent + , I print directly onto uncoated printing foil, PVC-banners ect with good quality.

    What is true and what is not true? What will be the next step in the ink development?

    Cheers,
    Mats

    mats_k replied 19 years, 8 months ago 3 Members · 7 Replies
  • 7 Replies
  • Rodney Gold

    Member
    September 13, 2004 at 4:08 am

    A printer prints only 7 colours , it fools our eyes by printing cells of dots , these dots spaced differently etc to simulate a colour. Color gamut depends on how it can do this and the pigments or dyes in the ink. If you take blotting paper vs vinyl , you will soon see that the colour gamut on blotting paper as well as the resolution is impossible to achieve as the small dots the printer lays down soak into the media and run into each other. Same thing happens with agressive solvent inks , you have what are called dot gain problems. In the same breath , less agressive solvents might not “penetrate” the substrate and you might end up with the same type of problem , like ink pooling etc.

    There is no “universal” ink solution , its the same in any printing application , screen printers and normal printers use different inks for different substrates so to expect your inkjet printer to print on anything and everything is nonsense. There are medias that not even the most aggressive solvent printers can profile or get acceptable results from.
    Advertising claims suck big time , every ink mnfgr and machine manfgr claims theirs is better. If your machine is working well and doing the job you want it to , why mess around. If you change an inkset then all your profiles go for a loop. You essentially have to start again.
    Analyse why you want to go the route of a new machine with all its attendant issues (all machines have issues). Is it going to make you more competitive – and precisely WHAT financial rewards is it going to generate over and above what you have?

  • Robert Lambie

    Member
    September 13, 2004 at 10:55 am

    i never realised the jetster was a rockhopper, and i also thought the rockhopper was a true solvent printer 😕 (shows you how much i know eh? :lol1: )

    rodney, do the true solvent machines not have a wider choice of media to print onto or less restricted than the ecosolvent machines?

    how does the ecosolvent printing compare in running costs, or is that simply down to the machine and ink suppliers prices?

  • Rodney Gold

    Member
    September 13, 2004 at 11:30 am

    Solvents *might* print on more substrates , whether the print is acceptable is another story. Undoubtedly , true solvent have far better abraision resistance and resistance to other solvents , however this in not always the be all and end all of how good a printer is. With a grenadier or a cadet , one still has the problem of competing with roll to roll printers at prices you cant hope to achieve. If you could buy aftermarket inks and bulk ink systems for your true solvent printer , you might be able to near the “big boys” prices , tho you are going to have other problems. If you look at the true costs of printing , then inks and media are not that relevant. The ability to print without maintenance and reliably is far more important than saving a few pennys on ink. Crappy media prints crappy whatever inks you use. Its worth while paying a premium for the right profile on the right media. Think about it , if you have to print at a slower speed to get the same results , lets say 1/2 of what you normally do , bearing in mind the machine COSTS you about 20k a year , or about 100quid a day or about 10 quid an hour , you might be BADLY out of pocket trying to print on cheap junk. You have to balance the cost of media and inks vs the TRUE cost of running the machine. Your machine has to pay for itself over 2 yrs , the purchase cost + finance and maintenance is gonna be at least 40k over 2 yr , 200 working days in a year . 8 hrs ina working day , hence the 10 quid an hour figure. Thats what is costs you whether you do any work or not!!!!!
    thats why ink costs and media costs are pretty much not an issue.

  • mats_k

    Member
    September 14, 2004 at 7:07 pm

    Rodney, thanks for your input

    My machine has so far been a true workhorse. Ok it is not the fastest one in printing. It does in 360 Bi directional mode around 3,4 m2/h. The media range is wide so, as you say, why mess around when the printer does the work one want´s. Its better to have working system that might be a little slower but with a good result.

    What is your ideas concerning the next development within the printing field?

  • Rodney Gold

    Member
    September 14, 2004 at 8:17 pm

    In terms of printing , in the short term one will see prices of printers drop as will ink costs , thus empowering the smaller sign guys to do digital printing without busting the bank on the capital equipment. The downside is that one will soon see high street print shops and other places also offer the service and thus prices of prints and to some extent profitability will drop. In terms of what we do , I cant really see print speed increasing substantially or some miracle ink appearing or some major resolution increase. Development in the longer term will most likely be in UV curable inks and flatbed/roll to roll printers. Its also likely that one could have modular type ink and head systems , where you could easily swap a module with different inks for different applications. Integration with a laser system for cutting after printing is a possibility. Laser guided heads to follow contours are already here which will enable flatbeds to print on virtually anything (I already have a small machine that prints on anything up to 10cm thick , 35cm wide and 1m long at 2880 dpi at around 8 quid per sq meter )
    I doubt digital will be competitive with other forms of high volume printing like litho and screen printing for some years , but there is already a huge amount of convergence. Im not sure what else is around the corner

  • Robert Lambie

    Member
    September 14, 2004 at 9:03 pm

    i agree rodney..
    prices for digital printing is already dropping by the day..
    i think people that buy a large printer need to be educated better on pricing their work. understand the real value of good prints to bad ones..
    if we priced jobs properly our business wouldnt devalue as fast. doesnt work like that of course because we are continualy seeing newer, faster, bigger machines come on the market, so the older ones drop steep in price.. joe bloggs buys an old one for near to nothing, opens up at the end of the road and puts work out for beer money. the customer is none the wiser because he gets his prints at the end of the day.. but… pixalated, on bad vinyl and gauranteed only to fade fast! 😕 how can we win.. pull in the customer and educate them too?
    i do think the inks will drop faster in price than machines.
    bulk systems have to be the away to go.. when you see how much ink is actualy in a cartridge & the cost of some of it.. its a joke!

    i think the idea of the modular type print heads is a good one.. giving best of both worlds.
    integrated machines that print onto foam and contour by lazer etc is another good one.. (i maybe wrong) but does anyone remmeber a flat bed machine contour cutting spiderman prints on foamex.. was this a two in one machine? if not its gotta happen at some point for sure. there is already routers with 6 heads on the market so im sure more of this kind of thing is just around the corner.

    not so much to do with our side of printing, but still print, advertisning, promotions.. but the way i see things moving over the next 5 years is “remote signage”
    this will come in a smaller form first (already has) in shopping centres, petrol stations and that type of thing. but i see it progressing to billboards & signage that is constantly being changed.
    look at how an advertsing billboard is done today..
    premises/factory sales, artwork setup costs, graphic designer, digital printed, ink, media, labour/travel time, fitter, petrol, vehicle…
    take a remote billboard.
    sales/graphic designer sells design. on confirmation sends the file from computer to remote sign like email. sign instantly changes to NEW sign.
    allowing short term ads from 1 day -to- whenever?

    UV durabilty is almost there.. i think if a true garuanteed 5 years unlaminated non fade would be sufficiant.. i know some say its already done, but is it? (i dont mean vehicles 😉 )

  • mats_k

    Member
    September 19, 2004 at 6:24 pm

    I agree with you.
    as soon the prices on the printer goes down there will be a difference in quality. We who knows our job has to deal with guys not knowing so much. In the beginning it will be a discussion of pricing. I think that the winners in the end will be the guys who knows how to print and whats needed for a good orginal layout. We have to let the other guys play around and lose job when customers sees what a real print looks like!

    About ink.
    I save all my used cartridges. I think it is so sad when one opens the “empty” cartridge and see how much ink there is left in it. Waste of ink and of money. Market price here ~ 86 Euro…so it costs.
    Anybody knowing anything of a bulk system that works with a Rockhopper 1 ? That would be a great improvement, it will erase the risk not knowing when the ink is at end, and will increase productivity since the machine can be left for unattened printing.

    Rodney !
    for a veichle wrap. Which foil + laminate can you recommend for me ?

    / mats

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