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Leaking Light Units. what should I do?
A bit of a saga this has turned out to be and any ideas how to solve it would be appreciated.
Back in March I supplied two new swing signs for a hotel and they wanted trough lights for each sign.
Somehow I missed Portland’s direct order number and ended up purchasing the lights through a 3rd party sign trade supplier. They were advertised asquote :“We supply the aluminium trough lighting system from Portland to fit all our brackets.
They are sealed & tested to IP64, and specifically designed for this type of application”First off all the lights all arrived with broken tubes through not being packed correctly.
Then when new tubes were sent I found when taking the end caps off to change them that the end caps had no seals and in fact when I looked at the Portland website they had completely different caps. The Portland ones enclosed the whole end of the extrusion whereas the ones supplied to me did not fold around the edges but were a flat plate, How could a flat plate with no gaskets be waterproof?
I then also found that the polycarbonate lenses had no gaskets in them where they fitted in the extrusion case. I only found that these should be in place by discussing what they should really be like with Portland.
When I contacted the supplier they made me feel awkward, and that I was being picky before eventually agreeing to get the correct parts from Portland, send them to me so I could make up the lights correctly myself.
So eventually got the lights made up and I fitted them to the signs. An electrician then came and connected them to the Hotel light circuit.
There then followed 6 months of trying to get paid with constant reminders, legal threats and turning up on their doorstep.
They had pleaded cash flow problems so I had given them the terms over 4 months but when they faulted on those I managed to get the final payment by turning up at their reception. They gave me the cheque but then complained that the lights were tripping out their lighting circuit.
Seemed strange they had waited 6 months to tell me this but I immediately had a look at them and contacted the Electrician.
He confirmed that the circuit was tripping but admitted on this first conversation that it was probably not the trough lights but old wiring somewhere else in the circuit.
He also admitted the management were hard to deal with and were not paying him on time either.
I took a couple of end caps off and all looked fine , and even if moistiure did get in the lens it would be nowhere near the electrics inside. So left them while the electrician tested the circuit more.
A couple of weeks later I get another call from the electrician saying to come and take the lights away as they were full of water and still the circuit was tripping. He also claimed there was no way to check the lights and that they would have to be changed to rule them out.
When I went this time there was a small amout of water in one lens and condensation in the 3 other lights. When compared to some other Portland lights on the next door hotel which had no sign of water ingress I could not say that the ones I had supplied were totally waterproof.
Both Hotel Owner and Electrician had seen water in the lens and demanded they be changed. I could only agree that there was water in them and duly removed them.The supplier did not want them back and only after a long discussion did they agree to have a look at them.
They have now been back at the supplier for over two weeks and despite several phone calls and emails only managed to speak with the owner yesterday.
He is now claiming that he has stood the lights outside for a week and there is no sign of water ingress and they do not trip a circuit on his test bench, so does not want to replace them but send them back to me.So, Where do I stand?
There is no doubt they were not supplied correctly to me in the first place.
There is no doubt that water did get into the lens while they were in place on the signs.
It is questionable if it is faulty lights or faulty wiring which is tripping the Hotel circuit.
The electrician obviously wants them changed to make his life easier and the Hotel owners obviously want them changed as they have seen water in the originals.
I would like my money back and buy the proper complete units direct from Portland.
I seem a bit stuck in the middle here and not sure what to do.
Sorry for the long post but it seems to turning into a bit of a nightmare on several fronts this one. -
9 Replies
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Not fit for purpose or not as described. Take your pick. Either way you have a case against the supplier as they were not Portland lights and they are not waterproof.
Request a refund and follow up with legal action if no luck.
You can do it all on line. -
Stuart, have you tried talking to Portland about this??
It might be that they are just using Portland’s good name to sell an inferior product, something I am sure Portland would want to know about.
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Peter, That’s the way I’m thinking if forced.
Martin. I spoke with Portland originally and told them what was happening when i was sent the wrong end caps. that’s how I found out what seals should have been in place, so they may well be interested with a follow up that they have leaked. Apparently Portland sell the extrusion & parts for them to be made up by the supplier.
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Stuart
of the several trough lights i have fitted none have been air tight, rubber seals on the end caps but none on the polycarb due to the interlocking design between the two water can not climb upwards. Some of these where supplied direct from Portland. Has it got the cable gland in the body or end plate and has it got the right gland fitted. The water inside is most probably condensation due to the tube being made nearly air tight, if the unit can breath as it cycles through getting hot & cooling then the condensation should not occur.
Light bars & boxes are never water tight but they do protect the electrics form coming in to direct contact with rain. The tube design of the trough light carries out this task automatically because as already said water does not travel upwards, so if you have end seals & no bolt holes in the tube then you have protected electrics. the polycarb then adds additional protection from any upward spray.You have so many variables in this situation an additional fact to remember is Fluorescent transformers do have a certain amount of earth leakage and if you have too many units on one circuit then this can cause tripping, so if they have wired in to an existing lighting circuit it may be the problem. The cable run length back to the fuse panel also a factor to consider. Also what is actually tripping a RCD unit or breaker, if it is a RCD is it 30ma or 100ma if it is a breaker is it a type B etc
I will say that i once had a pair of lights that constantly tripped my workshop RCD Changed the transformers still did it. Wired in to a non RCD circuit lights worked fine and have done at the customers premises for the past 2 years.
Anyway hope you get it sorted
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Thanks Kevin. That’s really useful information. Think I will have to press the electrician more as if its the case that these lights should not trip out a circuit even with condensation in them it would seem that its more likely to be a wiring circuit problem. His answer is to change the lights anyway to rule out that whereas the supplier does not want to change them if nothing wrong with them.
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Would disconnecting them not prove the same thing Stuart ?
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quote Gary Birch:Would disconnecting them not prove the same thing Stuart ?Not really Gary , if the circuit is not up to running the exta load, from the lights , it wouldn’t matter where there is condensation or not, a new light would still trip the breaker.
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quote Ian Johnston:quote Gary Birch:Would disconnecting them not prove the same thing Stuart ?
Not really Gary , if the circuit is not up to running the exta load, from the lights , it wouldn’t matter where there is condensation or not, a new light would still trip the breaker.
I guess so but if it still tripped without any lights connected that would point elsewhere for the problem.
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Just an update.
Have spoken with technician at Portland and they have explained that their standard tube lighting wire wound balast gear trays wound not short anything out even with water & moisture inside the lens. However they did have a problem a few years ago when they tried some High Frequency gear trays. These were affected by condensation so they stopped using them. So first thing to check is the gear trays are not these.
Supplier is checking this and returning them to me.
In the mean time on my third grilling of the electrician he admitted eventually that the circuit shorted out even after he had removed my lights and that a problem was found in another old light in the circuit. He said he only told me my lights were at fault as there was water / condensation seen in the lens.#
I can’t believe he has got me to remove the lights & send them around the country before he had even isolated the problem. I’m not an electrician but would have checked this first.
So after replacing the seals on the lights we are going to put them back in the circuit and hope the other light was the problem.
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