Illegal software on Ebay

[Richard Urquhart]

is he from here ??

[Robert Lambie]

go on, out him! 😉

he isnt a one stop shop guy is he? 🙄

[Matt Boyd]

that’ll be, eh hem….. chrish.rooney24 …..then, eh hem…. did i just say that?!?!?!?

[Robert Lambie]

name doesn’t ring a bell on the boards mate.. that’s good! 😉

pirate software must be a big problem for companies but the likes of eBay don’t really give a damn… not for software or anything else for that matter. i have purchased from it in the past, 5 years ago) but never give it a glance these days. sign making stuff? i find its full of cowboys selling low costing bad stickers plotted out for a few quid at a time, suppliers looking for a cheap alternative to sell budget cutters and the like. 😕

sign makers should be skilled, talented in what they do, this should sell for them on referrals alone… not relay on the worlds biggest flee-market. 🙄

[Steve Underhill]

I pay £500 for photoshop, I rang adobe to ask why I paid £500 and they allow their software to be sold at a tenner on ebay with a “working serial” or “full copy” and I was told by a high ranking guy at Adobe, that they ring ebay till theyre blue in the face and get nowhere, If a company like Adobe cant get these auctions lifted what chance have we got?
It sucks but its true.
Theres ways and means of harrassing these ebay pirates though just make up a new account you never intend on using and buy all of his copies on buy it now, he pays charges, you get a warnign, you dont care its not your real account.
I did this when the glastonbury tickets came out and my friend couldnt get one,the touts wanted £500 so I bid on 2 and didnt pay.
They soon learn

[Shane Drew]

Ebay has been selling scalped commonwealth games tickets here, but the victorian government has laws to prevent anyone auctioning tickets to events higher than their face value.

Ebay very qickly pull these auctions because they know it is a breach of state laws.

I think we need governments to make ebay and others responsible for promoting illegal activity if it can be proved beyong reasonable doubt.

If it was a shop front doing this, they would be prosecuted in the wink of an eye.

I know it starts to sound like a police state, which I’m against, but someone in power needs to make a stand.

I will not use ebay out of principal.

My father was a distributor of software for the C64 years ago. Piracy actually cost him his house, because any new software that was imported from the states, was pirated within the first few weeks, and it affected his import comittments.

That was before ebay. Goodness knows how some smaller retailers survive against such a huge dishonest base.

[Lee Ballard]

quote Robert Lambie:

go on, out him! 😉

he isnt a one stop shop guy is he? 🙄

He sold the business on eBay about a month ago as a going(not sure where it was going 😀 ) concern. (kept him in fave sellers list to keep an eye on what he was up to) 😀

Lee

[David Rogers]

Whew! I’m glad I’m not the only one severely p’d off by ebay’s ‘couldn’t give a fecal deposit’ attitude.

Cadlink can’t be bothered either as it’s really easy for them to request blanket removal of all cadlink software under suspicion of being pirate (microsoft do periodically). So why the (hot) should the illegitimate heir of a female canine make a killing and get away scot free. Jealous at his income? No. I just despise theft.

It just gets to me that when I set up a sign division under the parent company I could have got pirate SL e6 for £100, but instead spent well over a grand on v7 for the sole purpose of being a legitimate, honest sign company.
And it’s not Joe Public buying it either – it’s other sign companies….

[Barry Coles]

Well done !!! I paid full whack for my Signlab so should they.

Have you seen the Flexi for £45 got this message back from him when I checked him out some weeks ago………..
Item: FLEXI SIGN CAD SIGN MAKING PROGRAMME
This message was sent while the listing was active.
***** is the seller.

this is a copy and will enclose a second disc with the crack on it very easy to do
if still interested please contact

He is still selling !!! only 4 available ???

Well done again.

Barry

[Hugh Potter]

well as scotland yard now have a dedicated team to catching those who sell pirated dvd’s, maybe it’s worth reporting it to them, and trading standards, both ebay and the sellers ?

Hugh

[Andrew Boyle]

quote Steve Underhill:

I pay £500 for photoshop, I rang adobe to ask why I paid £500 and they allow their software to be sold at a tenner on ebay with a “working serial” or “full copy” and I was told by a high ranking guy at Adobe, that they ring ebay till theyre blue in the face and get nowhere, If a company like Adobe cant get these auctions lifted what chance have we got?

Adobe Systems Reports Record Quarterly and Annual Revenue and Net Income

In the fourth quarter of fiscal 2005, Adobe achieved record revenue of $510.4 million, compared to $429.5 million reported for the fourth quarter of fiscal 2004 and $487.0 million reported in the third quarter of fiscal 2005. On a year-over-year basis, this represents 19 percent revenue growth. Adobe’s fourth quarter revenue target range was $490 to $510 million. 😀

[Hugh Potter]

hey Brian (impact), if as you say, and i’m in no doubt you can, you can recognise your own vectors, then why not bid on them ? if ebay cannot act quickly enough to stop these one day auctions (even the 3 and 5 day auctions), then why not set up an account called piratebuster or something, and just bid to win every disc they’re seling, buy them all, then dont pay, do you think they’ll report you to ebay for stopping them selling your copywrited material ? and if they do, you’ve got ebay, they will have to act to stop the seller, i’m sure a well place solicitors letter to them might work if it came to it ?!
Hugh

[Peter Normington]

Unfortnately Ebay is like a giant car boot sale, and althought not defending them. they just provide the venue.
there are loads of illegal stuff about from dvds to music, let him who is without sin cast the first stone

Peter

[Brian Hays]

quote Hugh Potter:

hey Brian (impact), if as you say, and i’m in no doubt you can, you can recognise your own vectors, then why not bid on them ? if ebay cannot act quickly enough to stop these one day auctions (even the 3 and 5 day auctions), then why not set up an account called piratebuster or something, and just bid to win every disc they’re seling, buy them all, then dont pay, do you think they’ll report you to ebay for stopping them selling your copywrited material ? and if they do, you’ve got ebay, they will have to act to stop the seller, i’m sure a well place solicitors letter to them might work if it came to it ?!
Hugh

Sound like a plan Hugh, do you not to have to have bank account details or credit cards to register though? not sure I would want to put mine on.

[Hugh Potter]

only to sell, not to buy, hence so many bogus buyers on there after kicking out time !

[Brian Hays]

Ah right cheers, may look into that 😀 Although 99% of the outlines are Ingrams, they don’t seem too much bothered 😥

[Hugh Potter]

thats fair enough ! i reckon you could win your own cd (or artwork), then instead of sending em a cheque, just send them an invoice for the cost of a disc, and a copy of the copywrite law that is relevent to your work ? be worth the stamp ! just buy them all that are yours !

i’ve just listed the grim reaper i made on ebay, and put on there that if i see anyone else selling it i’ll have it removed, used a lo res image to make it hard to copy too, had to put it on there as all the others are the usual crappy one coour clip art thing, or printed (which i dont really rate anyways). i’ll just buy em if i see a copy !

[Peter Normington]

done a search Hugh, there are loads of grim reapers, Stevo done a nice one to, but how do you rate yours as copyright? is it so different than all the others, just asking, I have said this before, Brian as far as I am aware does not hold copyright to the outlines, the manufacturers do, they designed them in the first place. but brian provides a service that keeps updating the drawings. right or wrong I am willing to pay a few quid to keep Brian in buisiness.

Peter

[Hugh Potter]

i rate mine as copywrite cos i made it ! ok, i didnt do the original drawing, but as far as the vector goes, i had to make it, and it’s not like any of the others for sale,

re brians, he must own copywrite to his designs, even though he didnt do the original designs, he owns the vectors, surely ?

[Peter Normington]

Hugh mate, dont want to fall out about this, but if I make a vector of Mickey Mouse or Scooby Doo I dont think I own it, if you see what I mean.
Just changing a few nodes dosnt protect you from copyright laws. Grim reaper may be no ones, but then again if it belongs to warner or disney?

Peter

[David Rogers]

I’m with Peter on this one – by that reckoning all I’d have to do to circumvent copyright laws is change the format. It is the IMAGE that is protected, not the method of storage or replication.

[Phill Fenton]

Sorry Peter but I agree with Hugh – you do have copyright over a vector file if you have created that file. I’m sure that Brian will confirm this is the case.

I was recently asked to send a vector drawn version of a logo to a company I had done work for in the past. I knew they were asking for it in order to pass it on to another sign company to have their vehicles signed. I explained that the vector drawn image was mine and I was not prepared to pass on a copy. They argued that it was their logo (which it was) but I refused to pass on free of charge a copy of a vector file I had created.

[Stephen Morriss]

You’ll probably find that both Peter and Hugh are right, The grim Reaper will not be copyright but Hugh’s drawing of it is.
It’s the same as if you take a photo of a ford Transit, Ford own the design of the Transit but you have copyright of the image.

Steve

[Hugh Potter]

i guess what i’m more concerned about is having my vector turn up on one of those dodgy clipart discs, then there wont be alot i can do to stop it being used, but if i can prevent people getting ahold of the image in the first place, then i have a chance of offering something different to the usual poo sold on there,

the only place that vector has been seen, is on here, and without meaning to come across selfishly, i have now removed it, it served its purpose at the time ! i’m more than happy for members on here to have it for their own use, they only have to ask for it, but i would rather it not be made publicly available, hence the way i worded my auction !

[Marcella Ross]

David, I’m curious…. do you get paid from Cadlink for reporting these or is it just a hobby? 😮

[Rodney Gold]

I’m going to be pretty blunt here and you might not like what I say.
It’s up to the manufacturers and suppliers of this pirated software to police is use. You can do better with your time than indulge in ‘moral indignation’ than to do their jobs. At the end of it all , the fact that one has purchased a stolen sewing machine does not make one Coco chanel and if you think that that is what is leading contributing to lesser sales, non competitveness or blaming piracy on your lack of success, you are sadly mistaken.

[David Rogers]

Ditched the post I’d typed…………….

I can’t be bothered 😀

[David Rowland]

if you draw a vehicle then yes u are copying their design, the shape/image of a BMW remains the property of BMW, even if it resembles that style then you could land up in copying trouble. If I sold mugs with photos of BMWs on or T-shirts, they might want to talk to me.

However with regard outlines, I don’t think it would be in the vehicle manufacturer’s interest to prosecute someone in the sign making market, they are more likely to support it.

However if you to copy BMW shape, you would have to copy the BMW bonnet badge which then could cause some trouble.

[Shane Drew]

quote Rodney Gold:

I’m going to be pretty blunt here and you might not like what I say.
It’s up to the manufacturers and suppliers of this pirated software to police is use. You can do better with your time than indulge in ‘moral indignation’ than to do their jobs. At the end of it all , the fact that one has purchased a stolen sewing machine does not make one Coco chanel and if you think that that is what is leading contributing to lesser sales, non competitveness or blaming piracy on your lack of success, you are sadly mistaken.

As a software manufacturer in the ’80’s Rodney, when software was being pirated, we relied on the consumer to dob the mongrels in.

We had our software being pirated in the UK, and the USA, as well as australia. We couldn’t afford to prosecute, and eventually it cost us our house and business, because in those days we were not operating on huge margins.

Thanks to the vigilance of the honest consumers, we managed to catch the larger retailers who were selling our software and copying our manuals. It all got too hard tho, and dad had to pull the pin.

At the time we were competing with what was to become quickbooks. There was only two programs of high calibre in the market at the time. Us and them. When we closed, quickbooks tripled in price, and they started charging for support.

It was a direct result of piracy that we ceased operating, and as such, a direct result of the consumer having to pay more for a product that is now clearly overpriced.

Simply put, we pay $1000’s for software instead of $100’s because the software companies find it easier to increase the price, than take their chances in the courts. It is simple maths.

So, it is the people that support this piracy that actually cost the honest guy more in the purchase price.

Sitting back and telling us to stop indulging in ‘moral indignation’ is overly simplistic. That fact is, if I pay $3000 for a ‘real piece of software’ and some clown down the road pays $100 for the same thing, then yes that is an uneven playing field, and yes I can rightly claim that as a contribution to my lack of competivness.

Copyrights to vectors are another matter, but please don’t sit back and tell me that software pirates are not a factor in this industry. My father made the decision not to pass the costs associated with piracy onto his clients. It was a mistake. And yes, your right, I don’t like what you say, or accept it.

I respect your right to express your view tho, even if I think you are wrong!

I’m sorry for the rant, but it is a sore point! 👿

[David Rowland]

The pirate software things gets to me a little… I try where possible to keep up to date with software and to accept handfull of software from people. I also had a computer software product which is now all over… which program was this shane, would it be one I would recognise over here?

When I see software being copied I try to keep distance of it, in the past I seen people download software/games/music/video just for the sake of it, but then it costs u harddriives.. i never saw the point

dave

[Rodney Gold]

I am not paid to be another businesses eyes and ears , I use software to do my work , I am grateful to those that supply it and pay the price for it if the price/cost benefit ratio is good , but do not consider myself in their employ or their watchdogs and I would rather devote my time and energies to making MY business grow. Our business as signmakers is NOT all about software , it is merely a tool
Yes , I do get p–d off that the cowboy down the road gets it cheap and has lower barriers to entry in terms of the business , but it’s a fact of life I have to deal with and if they cheap out there , they will be cheaping out in other areas and most likely not produce as good or as durable a product and will at some point fail.
If a software supplier supplies an “open” system , then it WILL get stolen , same way as your house with no one home and the door left open is almost certain to get burgled. Piracy was never a new concept in software and I’m sorry to hear about your misfortunes in this respect , but can’t also help thinking that your model was incorrect or that you had to be naive to think your consumers would police the system to protect you. Its like taking a patent on something and not being willing to enforce it , enforcement and protection come as part of the deal and have to be budgeted for and pursued.
Software mnfgrs are no paragons of virtue and are also guilty of some serious sins , like using their loyal users as beta testers , promising features that dont do as advertised and gouging users cos of their monopolys, producing bloatware that costs a fortune where a user might only need one or 2 core tools, using protection mechanism that interfere or make systems vulnerable to other serious attacks and so forth. this is no condonement of theft agianst them , but merely illustrates that they too sometimes “steal” from the customer. How many times have you installed something and end up spending your time to rectify some problem this created?
Any software co who takes advantage of a monopolistic situation and triples prices ad hoc is asking for trouble , they are leaving a HUGE gap for others to fill. There are very few monopolies that have survived unless there is some advantage to consumers (like the diamond industry). The simple maths is that gouging is a short term gain for a long term loss and that it is generally not a sustainable business model. The other part of the simple maths is that it can cost ME more than any savings i can realise on a reduced price program to police it or report piracy. I lay myself open to revenge attacks , having to waste my time giving evidence or being subpoened (sp?) etc The benefits of my reporting it are not soley passed on to me but to every other consumer who buys it (including competitors) and non of them are going to pay me for my good deed.
Those who want to indulge themselves in a thankless vigilante type crusade are welcome to do so , me , I will continue to mind my own business.

[Shane Drew]

I think it is over simplified again Rodney.

Our software was protected by a serial dongle, encoded with a random number, and was seriously difficult to ‘break’.

Piracy was, and is big business. Even in the ’80’s it was to tool of choice by well organised gangs to generate quick cash flow. They spent considerable time and effort breaking software security, which is why a lot of companies went down the registration path, Windows being an extreme example of this.

I agree we were naive in our approach, but if you know my family, we were very trusting, it was a new industry, and my father and sister were almost pioneers in the small business accounting industry. All our money went into development (we employed 4 full time programers), advertising and setting up distribution chanels.

In hindesight, we didn’t realise that we were up against some pretty ruthless business people, who didn’t subscribe to fair business pratices, let alone having a conscience.

Our programs were The ‘Electronic Cash Book’ and ‘Small Industry Debtors’. They were used by some areas of our tax dept and some large accounting firms here in OZ, as well as 1000’s of small businesses. In the UK it was distributed by the disptributors of Wordperfect.

As far as being a watchdog for manufacturers, it was not as you say. Any business that has a huge sales base, relys to some extent on public feed back.

On a personal level, I don’t weigh up my corporate or personal conscience on monetry gain. I don’t decide whether I’ll do the right and moral thing if it is not in my financial interest.

Personally I think David Rogers and people like him that see an injustice and do their bit to bring it to someones attention, should be encouraged, not discouraged.

I think it sad that people turn a blind eye to dishonesty in this day and age, thinking it is someone elses responsibilty. In truth we all have a need to be good corporate citizens. If we start expecting a financial reward for doing what is morally right, heaven help us all.

[Peter Normington]

Morality is a fine thing, problem is, its an expensive commodity.

we all do what we have to do given the circumstances. Some people find it moral to kill, whilst other find it immorral to keep a penny found on the street…
Wish I was a philosopher, then I wouldn’t have to worry about it.

Peter

[Rodney Gold]

I did not see where the discussion went to the point of personal morality
We were talking about business in that the pirate software costs someone something and the reasons given to police it were money related – unfair competiton , higher costs of programs etc , so it DOES seem the crusade is motivated by the almighty $. All of a sardine it has turned into something else? If it were a purely personal morality thing , surely there are far nobler causes to espouse than policing pirate software?

You insult me by implying my decisions and way of life or indeed my morality is governed by money , if that was the case I wouldnt bother to contribute to this board as in doing so I gain NO financial advantage.

[Peter Normington]

Quite the opposite Rodney, I may not be as eloquent as you, but we all have our own morals, we decide where our own line is drawn.
I respect and admire your comments and advice on the boards.

Of course it is (my opinion) a moral question, If your nieghbour leaves his door open, do you call the police when he is being robbed? or ignore it because he didnt lock the door?

Peter

[Peter Normington]

Sorry Rodney, I will leave you and shane to talk about morality. I thought your comments were aimed at me. I was typing while you and Shane were posting.

Peter

[Phill Fenton]

Ok here’s a theoretical situation to pass judgement on.

Lets assume you are a professional sign company that has been trading for many years – Rodneys company may well fit this criteria 😉

Now lets assume you have run this business for a number of years using a piece of software that is dongle protected to prevent piracy. One day the dongle fails. You contact the software vendor for a fix only to be told this version of the software is no longer supported. Worse still – The company that originally produced this software no longer exists. What can you do? One answer is to buy a “cracked” version of the (old no longer supported) software to allow you to obtain a “fix” and get your business up and running again. Are you morally wrong to do this? Surely the company that produced the software in the first place – and then “crippled” it by selling it with a sotware key (dongle) have a responsibilty to provide ongoing back- up? Sadly this is often not the case and users are forced to buy upgrades or next generation programs in order to continue using designs created using older no longer supported software.

In my opinion, a “pirate” is someone who sells bootleg and cracked software for a profit. Is a business owner who cannot obtain a “fix” for a dongle (that has been lost, stolen or simply packed in) justified in buying a “cracked” version of his software if this is the only way he can continue to run his business.

I have long beleived that software keys (dongles) are probably illegal as they “cripple” the software and there is no way of creating a back-up in the event of a failure of the dongle. You are at the mercy of the vendor to provide backup. If they go out of business you will have no back up – so are you then justified to go out and buy a “cracked” version of the software you rely on?

Food for thought 😮

[Gordon Forbes]

Eh “Back Up” copy in the UK is illegal only a US thing.

Goop

[Peter Normington]

quote Forbie:

Eh “Back Up” copy in the UK is illegal only a US thing.

Goop

never heard that before Gordon.

In fact most software lisences recomend a backup?

Peter

[Shane Drew]

Phill, your argument about companies going broke and not supporting the product applies to both dongled and non dongled software.

Personally, I have no problem with dongles, signwizard uses one as do many other proprierty software programs. I have used RIP’s in the past with dongles too. It is simply another tool to stop dishonest duplication. It is no different in my mind than having a padlock on your deadlock on your front door. Just extra security for the manufacturer.

That said, we discontinued the dongles and re-issued new software with better protection inbuilt, in a free upgrade.

These days most companies go the registration route, which I find annoying, but I understand the reason behind it.

Rodney, the phrase “The other part of the simple maths is that it can cost ME more than any savings i can realise on a reduced price program to police it or report piracy. I lay myself open to revenge attacks , having to waste my time giving evidence or being subpoened (sp?) etc The benefits of my reporting it are not soley passed on to me but to every other consumer who buys it (including competitors) and non of them are going to pay me for my good deed got me on the road to the morality issue. I am sorry if I affended you, but I did find some of your post insulting too.

I think you are a valued addition to the boards, and it is not my intention to insult you at all, but having seen my father ‘lose his shirt’, piracy is an issue that evokes some passion with me.

Nothing anyone can say to me will change my view, I am sorry, but I don’t think the business or corporate community do enough to stamp out this sort of thing. It is far easier to increase the sale price to cover the theft, than to actually do anything about it. Each of us would do well to think how selling pirated sign software (for example) effects our industry, and we should be concerned enough about it to at least make an attempt to bring it to the attention of someone, in this case, ebay. David Rogers was at least procative and not reactive. I think he should be commended, even tho it was not going to benefit him in a financial sense either, just like you, me, and the 1000’s of others that contribute to these boards too for no monetary gain..

I respectfully suggest this discussion has run its course, and apologise unreservedly if anyone was/is affended.

Cheers
Shane

[David Rogers]

quote Shane Drew:

I respectfully suggest this discussion has run its course, …………….

Cheers
Shane

Very much agreed. Thank you for your support on this matter Shane (and others). Maybe it is time to put this one to bed as it’s become more about an individuals perceptions of ‘do I – don’t I’ and a tad confrontational, and as a relative newcomer to the forum I’m not wanting to start offending / being offended * 😕 😛

* ie. digging a hole for myself.

Dave

[Shane Drew]

quote David Rogers:

quote Shane Drew:

I respectfully suggest this discussion has run its course, …………….

Cheers
Shane

Very much agreed. Thank you for your support on this matter Shane (and others). Maybe it is time to put this one to bed as it’s become more about an individuals perceptions of ‘do I – don’t I’ and a tad confrontational, and as a relative newcomer to the forum I’m not wanting to start offending / being offended * 😕 😛

* ie. digging a hole for myself.

Dave

I’m halfway to China mate 😳 😕