Illegal Signs erected at a new Hospital and Airport, whats your thoughts?

[Simon Worrall]

They didnt look up the rules, but then neither did the bureaucrats from the hospital.

Everything about this contract is of low quality. The design is shocking.

Those guys have never done this line of work before!

Presumably this kind of stuff up will come out of insurance? Or you poor british taxpayers?

[Robert Lambie]

This is new signage within a huge new Twin Hospital.
This hasn’t been thrown up by a small company, there are dozens of these all over the car parks and all installed when the hospital was built.

The thing is, Glasgow International Airport has a similar type of thing.

The argument could be the same sign company or the same contractors specifying the requirements. but regardless of who is to blame, it is wrong and does not conform with ISO Global Standards for what is actually a very simple prohibition sign.

The old saying "the customer is always right" does not apply here. The sign company should be professional enough to object and advise their customer.

[David Hammond]

A few things have probably occurred.

The account manager/sales manager probably doesn’t have a clue, and tells the customer they can have and do what they please.

We’ve been the receiving end of this when fitting for a large national company.

Perhaps the sign company advised, but the customer didn’t listen. Provided the sign co can show they advised against it, and the hospital ignored that advice, it’s the hospitals responsibility.

Or the company is simply getting paid a substantial amount for the contract and don’t really care. If they ever notice they’re wrong, they’ll likely get to re do it all.

I’ve noticed an increase in "sign companies" who don’t have a clue, get a sheet of foam printed from a trade supplier, and get a subby to screw it up… even getting subbies to measure up, spec a job, then using the info to do it themselves.

[John Lacey]

maybe this is the classic example of the difference between a sign maker and a desk top designer. I think generally sign makers see ‘the bigger picture’ and a graphic designer sees in a4… Dunno, crap design either way

[Robert Lambie]

quote John Lacey:

I think generally sign makers see ‘the bigger picture’ and a graphic designer sees in a4.

correct, a big problem in employing a graphic designers these days is they visualise everything in a small format of A4 – A3 size. so when designing vehicles and signs everything is oversized to a ridiculous proportion.

In this case, the reality is, this is just a stock "no smoking" graphic. but they haven’t even got the colours correct.

however, regardless to the ability of the graphic designer, because they are just one link in the chain of those involved in the process. The designer may have been following specifications provided by those erecting the hospitals. and if not, then the sign company who manufactured the signs must have some sort of check process to make sure all their signs conform to whatever is being ordered. At this point, the artwork should have flagged up!
Let’s say the sign company have no clue and provide as shown, the contractors must also have an inspection process to make sure everything that is put in place conforms to their spec and legalities. my point is, these days, especially in places like hospitals and airports, there is a full process of conformities to abide by as well as inspections. yet dozens and dozens of signs like this have been waved through without being flagged up.

A simple example:
Someone walks into your sign company and says.
"can I have a car number plate in brush script?"

typical replies:
Sorry, we are not allowed to make number plates without a licence nowadays.
sorry, that will not be legal mate, we will be fined for providing this and you will get fined also along with three points on your licence.

.

[Colin Crabb]

Rob, the problem is, that sign making is pretty much unregulated.

Regulation can be a double edge sword, Cost(s) to ourselves that a regulatory body would charge VS increased standards etc.

While I like to see, and strive ourselves to meet high standards in both sign making and graphic design, and making sure insurance & fit for purpose is adhered too… would I like to see a regulatory charge of £1000 for the first year, then £500 a year onwards as electrical trade? I’m not sure….

We have lost a job last year, as was unhappy with clients response about planning permission and building control (they wanted to cover windows with sign trays on a first floor), yet A.N OTHER sign maker was happy to take the work.

[Robert Lambie]

The thing is Colin, every industry has regulations of some sort. it just seems the sign industry is so far behind in putting any in place. which is something I spend a hell of a lot of time to create an awareness of.
Everyone and their granny are jumping on board classing themselves as a sign maker. And do you know what, that really does not bother me because everyone has to start somewhere, even if it’s working from a backroom or a shed, that does not bother me one bit. However, if they do not educate themselves in our trade, it is what they do next that can often damage our industry, whether that’s poor designs, undervaluing work, bad materials used or generally bad signage sold, it all has a significant impact on our industry. We only have to look at what’s happening with vehicle wrapping…

Regardless, sign companies are now being held accountable, with huge fines being given, some closing their doors as a result, but that’s all another story/post…

That aside, take these health and safety signs.
let’s just say it was a "No Entry" done in green and someone pulls out into oncoming traffic. there is a death, inquest etc. who would be responsible? I would say the sign company, but it could be argued it should be the contractor who supplied the plans etc etc.
We could take David’s comments on "we are often told to get the job done etc". but because we do, does not make it right. at that point, we become accountable for saying nothing.
Ironically, we did signs for a large brewery this week. "they provided" plans of the whole building, vector artwork of the signs and more. Method statements, site induction. everything is done by the book and all very efficient. BUT, a bunch of their signs were in red when they should have been in green. by chance, i looked at our graphic designer’s screen and told him to change the colours, email the company and then call the company advising we have corrected the signs to conform with ISO regulations. they thanked us for pointing it out to them and agreed with us to conform. when the lads turned up at the site, the H&S officer thank them again, stating that they were getting an audit done in a weeks time and they could have failed the audit as a result costing them a lot of money plus having to get the signs done again.
People do not order H&S signs or traffic signs because they like the look and cost of them, they do it to conform with regulations to tick boxes for insurance purposes and more… If we, the sign makers are willing to make and sell this type of sign, then we should know exactly what we are doing, or bypass these type of signs where deaths can and do occur, and leave it to the companies that know best.

I managed to find a picture of the signs I saw at Glasgow International Airport and have attached below.
Just like the hospital, the graphics do not conform to ISO regulations as there are dozens and dozens of these all over the place. my point is, this isnt a new start-up company doing these, i would say this is a medium to BIG sign company supplying to the likes of an Airport, same with the Hospital. yet non-conform, so none tick the boxes required by the insurance companies should something happen. and these pillars with the "no-smoking" signs are the same ones the terrorists drove into with eth gas canisters and blew up the jeep! :awkward: 😆

[Colin Crabb]

quote :

The thing is Colin, every industry has regulations of some sort. it just seems the sign industry is so far behind in putting any in place. which is something I spend a hell of a lot of time to create an awareness of.

I totally agree, I have pulled companies up before, as in my example of fitting tray sign over windows, we lost the work as customer didn’t want to be educated, just wanted the job done. Imagine if there was a fire, and covering windows with ACM on the first floor hindered the Fire Brigade……

Another example on our label press printing beer labels. Supplied artwork was missing legal requirements in displaying ABV at correct font size, on the front of the label. This could land the end user a £5000 fine – NOT the designer / printer. We pointed this out to the designer, who’s reply was ‘But it ruins the design….’ ( :shocked: ) The customer on the other hand was very happy!

So yes, its about education. As for regulation I’d personally like to see Building Control become more involved in signing off signage, therefore encouraging & promoting the knowledge required – As with your H&S signage, Building Control would indicate the colours required, and if still incorrect would advice and not sign off the work, long before any audit.
If this type of system was introduced, I personally feel it would create a level playing field, as no matter if you worked from a shed or had a 2000 strong work force, we’d all have to abide by the same compliance rules – fairer solution?