How do supplier act when thing go wrong – 3M IJ180

[Jason Xuereb]

We had a similar situation years ago with an Arlon product. We had the same treatment as you passing the buck, doing some magical test on a small portion of the roll which they proclaimed was 100%. Being interrogated over our processes and install environment etc etc. So I know how that feels.

In the end our actual supplier came to the party and replaced the roll with another one. That roll was fine so either it was a batch issue or just something specific to that roll.

Unless you are doing a fleet job and get the warranty from the actual manufacturer to warranty the product for that specific use then I wouldn’t be counting on anyone to come to the party.

In the end everyone makes mistakes. What separates everyone is what actions you take after you make them.

[Jason Xuereb]

I should add once I had an issue with an Avery product. Rang them they acknowledge it as an issue and sent out new material from a different batch. That’s how you fix problems.

[Unknown Member]

Jason….

Thank you for taking the time to read my long essay….LOL

I’m fed of the way I’ve been treated by William Smith….These guys have done nothing but try to pass the buck and it feels like I’m the one being called a liar….

I’m not going to go down the route of starting a slanging match with them on the forums because thats not my style….

But a word of warning to anyone looking to order from them, these guys are quick to take your dish….(£799 of mine) not quick to respond when things go wrong and not quick to offer solutions either….

The magical material test continues….Perhaps one of the very active William smith members on the forum would like to reply and offer there opinions….??

[Jason Davies]

A great shame for you and them. They have now lost a long standing customer. You are clearly unhappy and it will make others think twice about using suppliers who do not provide a good service. Thanks for highlighting this.

Jason

[Jon Marshall]

We had a problem with a 3M product from WS and it has been sorted out.

It probably hasn’t compensated us fully for the time involved etc but I would still rate WS as one of the best suppliers out there right now

[David Rowland]

Sorry to hear this mate… now i know the reasons behind your decisions.

We use Mactac for wraps and Avery for regular.. love it on the L25500

We ran into "difficulties" with Image Perfect and our Spandex supplier and its always our fault.

[John Hughes]

I would imagine that WS supply many thousands of metres of vinyl etc to their customers and yes things can go wrong from either party.
It doesn’t take much to mess up a metre of vinyl – who is to blame ? Perhaps both parties at some point or other.

When things go wrong, as they do for all of us at times, how to deal with can be different every time.
From reading this forum, WS have a good reputation but for what ever reason some thing as gone wrong in your situation.

Get on the phone Harpreet and arrange to meet up with somebody F2F and sort out. I’m sure that would benefit both of parties.

It’s only vinyl 🙂

John

[Unknown Member]

I’m surprised William Smith dont want to comment about this…..normally very active members of the forum….

[Andrew Gamble]

I’m sorry to hear you’ve had a bad experience, with both the supplier and the film, however I would be very suprised if this is a material fault. The roll you received will have a batch number, a lot number and a manufacture date inside the core. All these details will be relevant to not just the roll you recieved, but a substantial amount produced on the same day from the same machine. They are referred to in 3M as ‘jumbos’ so if there was an issue with either the face film or the adhesive then this would be a widespread issue, not just with your roll. Indeed its quite common for WS to have 25 rolls in stock from the same batch number… So 24 other customers would report the same issue, or if WS sent you a replacement roll then this would be no different?
There could be numerous reasons for this issue, and you are obviously very experienced and you have carried out your normal practices so could it be that this is a vehicle or paint specific problem, as I would suggest it is highly unlikely to be a material issue.

[Unknown Member]

quote Andrew Gamble:

I’m sorry to hear you’ve had a bad experience, with both the supplier and the film, however I would be very suprised if this is a material fault.

"Nice to know someone related to William Smith is prepared to apologies….No body else has bothered too" A very predictable answer…Material not at fault….that seems to be the only thing I’m hearing from William Smith and to be frank getting rather annoyed seems like you folk are given a Hymn sheet to recite to customers.

quote Andrew Gamble:

The roll you received will have a batch number, a lot number and a manufacture date inside the core. All these details will be relevant to not just the roll you recieved, but a substantial amount produced on the same day from the same machine. They are referred to in 3M as ‘jumbos’ so if there was an issue with either the face film or the adhesive then this would be a widespread issue, not just with your roll. Indeed its quite common for WS to have 25 rolls in stock from the same batch number… So 24 other customers would report the same issue, or if WS sent you a replacement roll then this would be no different?

I understand what your saying but after a lengthy conversation with a colleague of William smith he mentioned that they have had rolls with issues before….In fact he mentioned that you actually replaced a roll for a client who had the same issue..So I dont believe for one second that the statement in relation to jumbo rolls is entirely correct….As mentioned by your colleague material can become contaminated…. isn’t this the issue to in manufacturing of the material, is it not possible for contamination to damage a particular roll…..??? I can be easily start naming William smith staff and making it very clear what members of your team have been telling me what….but this become a rather messy situation though hence the reason I decided not to mention names…"

quote Andrew Gamble:

There could be numerous reasons for this issue, and you are obviously very experienced and you have carried out your normal practices so could it be that this is a vehicle or paint specific problem, as I would suggest it is highly unlikely to be a material issue.

10 / 10 for passing the buck once again William smith seem to be real professionals at this….never hold your hands up and say we could have made a mistake….

Its highly unlikely the paint is an issue on this vehicle as we have rewrapped the vehicle and this occasion decided against using 3M and instead used a HP gloss cast wrapping vinyl….which for the record if any other wrappers are reading in my opinion is far more superior film than the 3M and Im what you call a BIG fan of all 3M products so for me to say the HP is better is a big bold statement.

I didn’t think I would have any luck getting a positive response from William Smith and the reply posted by Andy is exact what I expected….Other than going down the route of good received not being fit for purpose `i dont know what else I can do…..

[Robert Lambie]

quote :

So a week after we wrapped it a very annoyed MD rang me and told me the wrap was failing….the wrap has started to fail on flat surfaces, and lifting on edges something which we never experienced before……Just for the record again this guy was not happy he pointed the blame directly to me…told me it was my fault and didnt want to hear anything else wanted it rewrapped….(Client emailed pictures ASAP to us)

Harpreet, sorry to hear of your problem.
Can i ask what "you" think is the cause of the fail?
If your customer is local, why did he have to email pictures. Have you not inspected the vehicle yourself?
Would it be possible to post the pictures here for us to see?

[Andrew Gamble]

Harpreet,

Lets get a few things straight and put and end to a situation before it arises…

I am NOT anything to do with William Smith, the people you speak of naming are NOT my colleagues and i certainly was NOT replying on behalf of William Smith. I am NOT impressed that you have taken your clearly bad, and unfortunate experience with them and simply tarred me with it.

I decided to post as an INDEPENDANT, with i may add, 23 years of knowledge and experience within this trade, in order to try and understand your problem and maybe even assist. Correct me if i’m wrong, but i thought this is what the boards were for?.. To get sound advice and help from fellow signmakers??.. If you want to take an aggressive tone, basically call me a liar and then threaten with naming people who also are probably just keen to help, then perhaps a school playground would suit you better?

I will hereby end my interest in this topic, i offered some advice and an INDEPENDANT opinion, but you clearly dont wish to take this on board. I could also explain in depth the manufacture process which would make you understand how unlikely it is that 1 single roll would get contaminated on the adhesive side, but to be honest I cant be bothered wasting my time.

Good luck for the future.

[Russell Huffer]

We had a problem with media supplied by WS a few months back, long story but I found WS to be most helpful and knowledgeable throughout the whole investigation process, it was not a media problem but a printing problem in the end.
I think the problem you may have is that you have decided it is media and WS should compensate you, I believe that you need to talk to WS and do tests and see if you can repeat the problem and hopefully confirm what is the fault.
I know WS will help with this because that is the sort of helpful company they are but you need to keep an open mind on what the problem could be.

Kind regards

Russell.

[Unknown Member]

Robert,

The cause of the problem is unclear…..

– Prints printed using Roland XC 540 with Eco solvent max inks
– Prints allowed to gas out for 3 days and a further day to rest after laminating
– Vehicle inspected initially by our neighbour who is a body shop to inspect if any repaires have been carried out to the vehicle (We do this with all vehicles)
– Vehicle washed a prepped in exactly the same way we have done with over 200 vehicles.
– Vehicle wrapped in the same location all our other vehicle are wrapped
– Hundreds of metres of 3M cast used in the past never a problem only with this particular roll.

After narrowing down all of the above what else can it be….?

The client sent us images straight away, vehicle was inspected a week later, couldn’t believe how this material had failed…..never in all my years have I seen what I saw with the van.

Rob will post pictures next week to show you how the wrap was with the 3M supplied by WS and how the wrap is now after being rewrapped….

Andrew,

You need to understand one thing when your posted all over WM facebook page and your very own website states you work in conjunction with WS, one is to BELIEVE that you are in fact linked with WS…..Granted you maybe working independently of WS, but your reply sounds remarkably similar to what a number of WS staff have stated….in fact its almost word for word….Hence my frustration and harsh reply.

My reply is not tarred towards you but WS, I’m just so amazed and annoyed that such a large firm isn’t bothered about us small fish…..Apologies if the reply seemed harsh its just my frustration with the whole situation more than anything.

Thank you for taking the time to reply….I’m sure you can appreciate that seeing yourself heavily linked to WS prompted my harsh reply, to wish I apologies….its not your fault at the end of the day.

Russell,

WS seem to have provisionally made up there mind by saying there is nothing wrong with the material even though they have printed there test piece on a latex and we did so on a solvent…..not sure the results warrant a conclusive answer especially as the machines used to print are totally different.

I have tried talking to them on a number of occasions with not positive response.

[Robert Lambie]

Hi Harpreet

Thanks for coming back to me on this…

To be brutally honest with you, the one thing you have missed out of your list there is a fail caused by the “wrap installer”, and was it the same guy wrapping your 200 vehicles?

We all have our off days, my self included. Anyone that’s been on a UKSG course may remember me mentioning a LWB sprinter van fail I did, as I make a point on mentioning it when asked certain things. Anyway. I put it down to one hell of a long day fitting this van, tight deadline, answering my mobile non-stop etc which I believe now to be the cause of an insufficient post heating process.

Pictures are very important mate, I would appreciate it if you could post them now rather than in a weeks time as it will help speed up the process of this post if we can physically see the fail and suggest some things that could have gone wrong. Of course nothing beats seeing the job first hand to analyse what has happened. But I/we don’t have that luxury.

Have Wm. Smiths given any of their own thoughts based on your pictures of the wrap fail?

[David Rowland]

we had a post heat problem too, cant say that the person completed the job correctly, we have no idea lol… our trusted JV3 and Avery 1900 year ago… latex saved the day a while later.

[Robert Lambie]

I have a particular interest in this post because the person making the complaint is a UKSG member, but further more, the complaint is being made against a UKSG supplier.

Due to Your silence / absence Harpreet after I asked if you could to post some pictures of the job in question a couple of days ago… When ordering some vinyls myself, I decided to ask Wm. Smiths a few similar questions with regards to your very public complaint.

To reiterate some points raised by you :

* Your wrap failed.

* A very irrate customer sent you pictures right away by email, complaining.

* Wm. Smiths took away the remainder of the vinyl for testing.

* Test concluded the wrap was not faulty, but you do not accept this is as a “like for like” test as it was printed using their HP Latex machine.

Am I correct in my finds that…

* You have Not submitted any Pictures of the failed vehicle to Wm. Smiths.

* You completely stripped the vehicle, making an onsite inspection impossible.

* You Did Not give Smiths the "stripped vinyl" when they arrived to collect the remainder roll of unused vinyl?

* Smiths “asked” you if you could print some prints onto the media using the same machine that you used to print the wrap, so as they could test it like for like, but “you refused”
which is actually why they had to print using their own machines which are HP latex.

You have publicly asked our views and opinions on this mate,
So I am playing Devils advocate here…

Let’s reverse things on you a little…

* A very irrate customer calls you complaining that the wrap you did the week prior has failed and they either want their money back or the job done again.

* You arrive on site only to find a blank white van.

* You ask for pictures of the failed graphics but they do not provide you with any.

* They tell you they stripped the van themselves before you could inspect and bin the waste.

* They begin complaining about refunds and asking what you are going to do about this.

* They dislike the fact you are having to ask lots of trivial question to try and find out how this could have come about.
i.e.

* Is it the same person that drives this vehicle?
* How do you clean this vehicle, by hand or by pressure washer?
* Has the person cleaning the vehicle used any particular clean chemicals?

* They now begin complaining about these irrelvant questions because their driver has cleaned his van over 200 times and never before has vinyls come off.

Is this starting to sound familiar Harpreet, would you simply knod and arrange for the job to be done again or refund him in full? of course not…
It is all about a process of elimination to get to the root of the problem and see who is actually to blame, then decide on a way to move forward once this has been established.

It is the same here Harpreet, If it IS the media, then fine, you get a new roll or you money back as part of the 3M warranty.

I must add, Smiths are not the manufacturer of the media, 3M is! So If
you have a faulty roll, 3M will replace it as part of their warranty.
So reality is, there is no real reason why Smiths would be trying to prevent you making a genuine claim and with the prospect of loosing a customer too. It wouldnt make good business sense.

As you said yourself, they have had three people dealing with you on this, picked the media back up, run their own print tests and more.
But without your assistance and providing them with evidence of your claim. really, what do you expect?

In another post, after bullet pointing your list of prepping your vehicle, you asked me what else could it be?

If you read back my reply, I said you have completely missed "human error", i.e. the wrap installer and his process of application.

Specialist wrap media from companies like 3M & Avery, amongst many others have strict specific fitting procedure which must be followed by the book.

Has your installer had any sort of training using the media in question?

I raise this question because you mention they attended the Roland Academy on a two day course around 5 years ago. This being the case, the training will have been based on Grafiwrap re-positionable wrapping film and Metamark MD7. neither film using an air escape adhesive system, of which your 3M film does.
Do not get me wrong, its a very similar application method with the 3M film, but the adhesive system on the rear is completely different/unique and as much as it aids installation, it also has pitfalls if fitted incorrect.

another quick one to throw in, Did you use the 3M specified cleaning liquid for prepping prior to fitting their media?

Contaminated Media:

You scoffed at the suggestion of contaminated media not really being much use for tests.

Let’s say your fitter has been installing a wrap all morning.
Lunch break time he has a bag of chips or a kebab.
break over, he goes back to fitting the vehicle and by end of the day he completes it.
one week later the vinyl’s fail in some key areas that require an element of stretching.
You call your 3M rep and they arrange for an inspection of the fail.

Something to consider:
3M have a device that can be placed on the adhesive side of the vinyl that has failed and within minutes tell you every alien body found on the rear of that media which would have ultimately led to the fail.
Now lets take the fictitious scenario i gave above.

The failed vinyl gets inspected at some key areas where stretching is required.
the 3M device comes back with its reading of alien bodies found on the rear of the vinyl. these include:

* Kebab grease
* car polish
* dust
* human finger sweat
* human skin tissue
etc etc…

i know you will know how imperitive it is to have a squeaky clean fitting surface, but 4 hours into a fitting, air born dust, food grease and sweat on your hands. constantly fingering and pulling at the adhesive side of the media etc. here is where contamination of key points of the application can happen. areas you are spending the most time on get fingered most, stretched and can fail due to the exchange of sweat, grease etc onto the adhesive of the media. a key stretched point that should be 100% contamination free to aid the vinyl keying to the surface of the vehicle.
Not forgetting thinnening of the adhesive itself where stretched.

Now think about all the dirt and crap that would be on the rear of the vinyl AFTER you stripped a full vehicle and it lying around your workshop?
Hense the reason why someone at Smiths will have told you it will be heavily contaminated and wouldnt give a true reading "for your sake at least". can you imagine the reading after a week of lying in your workshop?

Test Result:
Yes Harpreet, we have found the reason for your fail.
It appears you have a cigarette butt, car oil, Walkers salt & viniger crisps and several other alien bodies found on the rear of your media. I can conclude, you are to blame and as a word of advice, clean the vehicle properly next time! :lol1:

Joking aside…
I could go on and on with the list of possible reasons why your wrapped failed due to human error Harpreet. but i wont, because its pointless without first hand inspection of the fail, pictures and tests. I am merely stating all this "because you asked me" and it was the one thing you missed from your list. Human error… do not rule it out as its the most common result for a fail on any media.

To wrap this up, no pun intended…

If the above points are accurate, I sympathise with you Harpreet because nobody needs these types of headache when trying to run a business. But I also think "you are in the wrong" by the way you are trying to go about this whole thing, your reluctance to provide evidence or aid Smiths in running tests, to making this very slanderous and damaging post. which i also think you should think carefully about.

.

[Kevin Flowers]

Rob
in Harpreets defence i was in there on Monday & they where very busy with other stuff including just finishing off another wrap.

Kev