How Can we be Better at Resolving Disputes?

[David McPhillips]

here here Mike I’m 100% behind you on that one. we need to make each other aware of problems as at the end of the day we are the ones that are keeping the suppliers open and in business they need to remember this and start being more honest and help US the customer more.

If we use the power of knowledge these suppliers wont be able to keep telling us the lies they tell just to get a sale and the more rubbish they sell and the bad services they supply well eventually put them out of business.

Dave

[Nigel Pugh]

quote David McPhillips:

here here Mike I’m 100% behind you on that one. we need to make each other aware of problems as at the end of the day we are the ones that are keeping the suppliers open and in business they need to remember this and start being more honest and help US the customer more.

If we use the power of knowledge these suppliers wont be able to keep telling us the lies they tell just to get a sale and the more rubbish they sell and the bad services they supply well eventually put them out of business.

Dave

I’m all forward for an open discussion with customers, but I would like to say without "us suppliers" you would not be in business either, and for myself personally I never honestly tell a lie to any customer because it will usually comes back to haunt you. When you supply so many different products from materials, software, hardware etc then a good working knowledge of everything is not impossible but a tad hard.

What I do say is what I know to be correct to any customer, I have nothing to hide and if you can correct me on anything I say to you then hey I have learned something new, and I like to learn so I can pass that knowledge on.

You got to understand we and you make mistakes, we or you are not the enemy but are on the same side, so make criticisms and denounce suppliers if you have had bad service, it helps us to put things right, but think of the furore that would happen if we posted here on this forum those who paid their suppliers late just to warn other suppliers about customer bad service.

This is not meant as a have a go at customers but a view from the other side of the fence, a open discussion between all of us.

Nigel

[Shane Drew]

If I can just add my 2c’s worth here….

I really undertand what you say mike, and I agree with you in part, but I have to say, Nigel makes a very good point.

I am a one man band in the true sense of the word. Sure, my parents help me, but essentially the business is me.

I have been on the wrong end of some poor service many times, but I overcame that very quickly, by forming good working relationships with the companies I deal with.

Right now, I am very comfortable with the suppliers I have. Why? Because I show them I’m loyal, and I am. I have one main supplier, and the other suppliers know it. I make no secret of the fact. 😛

I have developed a trust with all the reps that I deal with, and we have an understanding. Does not happen overnight, but it does happen.

I shout my best reps morning tea, and they often shout me too, I’ve met them at a restaurant for lunch. At the end of our last financial year, I sent my main supplier a gift to each of the 28 members of staff. I went into hock and purchased 72 bottles of a well known bottle of Hunter Valley wine. Cost me over $800, and I divided the bottles between my best clients, and my best suppliers.

Best $800 I have ever spent.

(My customers were excited too) The thing is, no one ever does this sort of thing for suppliers.

My suppliers that received the grog, were very appreciative and its fair to say that every employee of the company knows my name now. When I ring my suppliers that got the grog, everyone knows me, but I don’t actually know most of them.

I think its fair to say that each small business expects some form of loyalty for their business, but in truth, if your client displays no loyalty to you, you’ll not treat them as importantly as one that does display absolute loyalty to you. Our suppliers are no different.

My reps often express annoyance that the most difficult customers are the ones that shop around, then expect everyone to drop everything when they ring. Most suppliers will ‘look after’ their loyal customers ahead of the casual purchasers. These loyal ones are their bread and butter…

So, what I’m guess I’m trying to say, get to know your reps and suppliers and a more ‘personal’ level, and you’ll be amazed at what you get told. And, if you find a problem, you’d be better served to tell them first. If you start reporting it to some bulletin board before they hear about it from a ‘friend’, you will not get very far in the long term. Most suppliers here in oz, although opposition, have a turn over of the same staff. You don’t want them going to new jobs thinking you are a trouble maker. If they go thinking you are a swell and supportive guy/gal, you’ll have the benefits that come with it, namely better service and advice.

Long winded I know….. okay it was more like 50 cents.. 😳

[David Rogers]

Well said Hugh (Yeh, OK Shane…NIGEL!) & Shane. I’ll see your 50c and raise you 50 more….

I’ve ‘gone off on one’ about a couple of suppliers, whether shocking incompetence (over 60% of orders processed wrong or late) or silly delivery prices (apparently Scotland gets a £10 surcharge), but conversly, I sung the praises and recommended the ones that treat me as I treat my customers – fair, honest & courteous.

Do these suppliers know who they are – you bet! I’ll tell them.
One of the above makes excellent stuff, I just quibble over the delivery charges – they know it, I know it – but I still use them…..but not the frankly incompetent one…I’ve got a business to run…and they know that’s why they get next to nothing from me.

You build a rapport with the ones that you can work WITH – not ‘use’. You don’t NEED to spend £1000’s to get good service. I’ve frequently had companies do whatever it took to keep me happy. (re: hoodwinking) eg. A vinyl supplier dropped a much loved range and replaced it with what most customers thought was great & some others found dire – now we’re not talking 5m @ 380mm here – it was a few 50m x 1230mm logs. No problem – uplifted & replaced, hated the replacement stuff – uplifted & replaced, hated the different replacement stuff – again uplifted & account refunded. Or other suppliers that happily volunteer FOC offcuts so you don’t need to buy another sheet to complete a job.

In the end, this is a reasonably open forum that probably get some revenue via supplier advertising, it’s not a trade union to fight battles against poor service. If you’re unhappy with a supplier – tell them, if you’re still not happy – change. Nobody here will take a supplier to task unless they have personally had a problem – it’s a personal issue between you and them.
Would you appreciate it if a friend of a guy who wasn’t pleased with a job called you, or posted his gripes on a forum? No, because you’re a supplier too – it’s between TWO parties to resolve it.

Dave

[Shane Drew]

quote David Rogers:

Well said Hugh & Shane. I’ll see your 50c and raise you 50 more….

Dave

Hugh? Pugh… Nigel… whats in name anyway. Well said anyway Fred! I’d raise your 50 for another 50, but I’m out of money 😉 (I spent it all on the grog)

[Kevin Flowers]

Hi all
has Shane said its about good working relationships be it, Us to our customers or suppliers to us. As much as i want cheap prices i also want the service & knowledge that good suppliers have. You will always have salesmen that have more interest in commission than anything else but by creating an on going relationship some will alter that prospective. Companies that i would rate as having this approach Edward Mathias, Dorotape & Europoint now in some cases its the people i deal with in others its the company in general.

Kev

[Phil Halling]

Whilst I agree in the main about trying to work together to resolve a problem, always the best option, what about when you’ve been doing just that for 6 months plus. At that point when the supplier has exhausted all his knowledge trying to rectify your problem, offers you a solution that is totally unacceptable and when you reject the solution you are told "all further communication must be through our solicitors". Would it not be a good idea to be able to make public that the attitude of the supplier is:
WHEN WE CANT COST EFFECTIVELY RESOLVE SOMETHING WE ARE GOING TO DO ALL WE CAN TO SHIFT BLAME / GET OUT AND LEAVE YOU HIGH & DRY, and if all else fails we will drag out the legals in the hope you go away or go bust before it comes back to bite us!

[Shane Drew]

Fair enough Phill, but if a solicitor is becoming involved… I wouldn’t be nameing and shaming on a bulletin board either.

That is fodder for a solicitor, pretty easy to charge the writer with slander, then it will cost a mint to defend yourself in court.

If it gets to that stage, engage your own solicitor. Making something like that public is red rag at a bull stuff in my book.

Just my thought tho..

you may remember I named and shamed a company here, based in oz, but in the UK too. A researcher was googling that company name looking for dissatisfaction, saw my post, and rang me. He warned me a solicitor could argue I was being slanderous. I had to ask Rob Lambie to pull the post.

[Shane Drew]

quote David Rogers:

Well said Hugh (Yeh, OK Shane…NIGEL!) & Shane. I’ll see your 50c and raise you 50 more….

no problems dennis 😛

[Mike Ennis]

Shane,

Thanks for your detailed reply.

My main concern is when you make a large value purchase for printers or plotters for example. You do not buy these things everyday and therefore haven’t built up a relationship/trust with the supplier. You can shop around do your research but ultimately you have to trust what the salesperson/ sales brochure says and take the plunge. Some faults pop up regularly, you’ve only got to read back through the postings to see this. Many could be resolved with minor design changes others sorted with prior knowledge from the rep with little agro. If your not familiar with the "fix" you can spend many frustrating hours trying to rectify it. The sellers don’t wont to admit that there is a fault because then they have knowingly sold a faulty m/c.

It’s amazing to me when you compare a similar value purchase such as a car. How many would accept for example that when you get the car home you find you have to buy an extra piece of software to get the car to reverse. Maybe not the best example but you see what I mean?

Regards, Mike.

[Shane Drew]

I know what you say Mike, and I do agree.

When I purchased my Roland, I have the choice of a few retailers.

I actually originally went to purchase a JV3. Í’d given a verbal undertaking to a sales co that I would buy one. The company involved was, and is, the biggest JV3 reseller in my area. Istarted talking to the head tech, and he was the same guy that was working for HP when I purchased my HP3500cp 3 years earlier.

He was the worse tech I’ve met. But, what made it worse was that he kept refering to my HP as ‘that bag of bolts’. I decided I was not going to give this company my business, even though they were the cheapest around.

Instead, I decided to check out other companies, visit them and talk to the sales peope at length on my hopes, lack of relative experience with printing at the time etc etc,. I actually purchased my machine from the company that didn’t treat me like a fool. Sure I paid more, but they did as meny demos as I liked, they always returned my calls, and still do, and as a result, they sell me all my inks, print material and do my servicing.

The problem we all face is that it is hard to go up to our opposition and ask what they think of their machine, or ask them why they bought ‘that’ brand etc.

Its easier to stick with a well known brand, and see who has the best reputation for service.

UKSB’s is a resource I didn’t know about at the time of my purchase, but if I did I would have been posting a thread asking for opinions of the two machines I was interested in.

It is annoying tho, to be a one man band and not have anyone to help you make such a big decision. I don’t know your situation, but I’m spoilt in that I have probably 6 dealers within an hour drive from my shop. It sounds like you don’t have that easier choice over there from the posts I read.

Thanks for the discussion mate. I’ve enjoyed it. Sorry your having some grief. Perhaps posting relevant enquiries here is the best option to us little guys. At least we are amongst like minded business owners, who by the fact they are participating in these forums, have a vested interest in any resolution that may be acheived…

Cheers

[Karl Williams]

When I bought my Rocky 38 last year, I started having problems straight away. This went on for a very long time. and guess what!!!! The supplier kept saying "we’ve not come across this problem before!" and oh yes, "It must be your computer causing the problem!" when suppliers make comments like above "You wouldn’t be in business if it was not for suppliers like us!" I see that as a complacent attitude. you might as well say "like it or lump it, we’re big enough and bad enough not to give a toss!
In the end their supplier exchanged the machine. I’ll keep buying the brand but I won’t use that supplier of the kit again! My father once said, "Never belittle the little man, look after him!" Shame the big boys don’t do this.

[Peter Normington]

Karl
I dont think Nigels comments were out of order, when read in context.
I could tell you a story about how his company tried their best to get me out of a corner, but its a long one, so I wont bore you.
at the end of the day, different people have a different view, there are always 2 sides to a story, and both see the same problem from a diferent angle. To name and shame is all well and good, but public lambasting rarely solves any issues. just my opinion.

Peter

[Peter Munday]

I have had three such instances, the first being when a major ink supplier, who has a link on this site, knew that their ink cartridges were melting. Did they do a recall, no they sat back and waited for the complaints to come in. Mine being that the cartridge melted in my store cupboard and went everywhere. 👿
The second problem I had with a supplier was when I bought an Espon 9600 and had it fitted out with a bulk ink system, the supplier told me I would need a chip re-setter to reset the counters in the cartridges, this I bought at a cost of £65.00 plus v.a.t. and struggled on. As time went by the chip re-setter was struggling to do it’s job, and after much moaning on a daily basis they decided to tell me how to bypass the code on the machine, 😮 no need for an expensive chip re-setter or the aggro of using it 👿
When we buy expensive equipment we expect the supplier to help us as we have no knowledge of the machines, this comes with use, but all to often they try to screw you for just a little bit more.

There rant over with.

Peter

[David Rogers]

quote Peter Normington:

Karl
I dont think Nigels comments were out of order, when read in context.
……… To name and shame is all well and good, but public lambasting rarely solves any issues. just my opinion.

Peter

Agreed, a rant feels good – but is more likely to lead to bad blood between both parties…and risk of liabel!!

Besides,re. the comments – it’s called supply & demand.

Without customers..there is no demand…and without suppliers there is no supply. We both NEED each other to remain in business.

I see both sides of the scenario, as probably you do to:
I’ve got customers that I loath, they are just pains in the ass (calls upto 4 times a day sometimes) – more hassle than they are worth sometimes, and I’ve got suppliers that well, are pretty much ex-suppliers ‘cos they screwed up SO badly. Conversely, I have some fan-bloody-tastic customers that don’t even ask how much stuff is…they just KNOW whatever I make will be right & a good price, and some suppliers that have turnovers into the mutli-millions that bend over backwards to help out ‘the little guy’ with his £50 order.

You had a bad experience and feel hard done by, but your problems may well have been genuinely unknown before. Half of the ‘my software /plotter doesn’t work anymore’ posts on here have even the most experienced users stumped. There are thousands of variables – and each PC is unique in it’s own way.

In the end – if you ain’t happy – move supplier. If they value you, never mind the business, some extraordinary lengths can be reached in customer care – but if you are the twentieth person that day ranting down the phone – they are gonna get peeved!!

Dave

[Karl Williams]

In most cases I would agree 100% with you. But when you spend good money with a supplier and they know you are a virgin to the world of wide format printing, and lets be right it is a whole new ball game to normal vinyls, you don’t expect to be told "We are not an educational facility!". It would just be nice to have the back-up and feel the supplier has some respect for you! No doubt most signmakers get good service from their suppliers. the supplier we now use are true stars.

[John Childs]

I know how you feel Karl because I am in a similar position. I have no complaints with my purchase, the kit was installed and we received the training that was contracted for, and are printing out quite happily. A bit of back-up is nice, but there must be limits, so without knowing the demands you are making on your supplier it is difficult to comment.

For ourselves, I am aware that we could do with another days instruction and have asked my supplier on three separate occasions whether they are prepared to do that and how much they will charge. The answer has always been the same, "we’ll get back to you", but nobody ever has. I find this very disappointing and it will probably colour the decision on where I buy my next stuff which, the way things are going, won’t be very long so somebody stands an excellent chance of losing a sale for lack of service. And that’s for service I am prepared to pay for, I dread to think what would happen if I get a warranty claim or need a call under the expensive service agreement that would be a pure cost to them.

[Karl Williams]

Cheers for that John.
To give you an idea of the problems were as follows:- On the days free training I had as you can appreciate many questions. I’m stood there all excited about the new purchase and waiting for blast off! Every question I asked the guy was met with "I’m not sure". or "I’ll find out". To make matters worse the cutter that was delivered was badly damaged. I was told "Put some matt black vinyl over it!" You can imagine my reply.
The cutter did not work either and the printer did not want to know.
The supplier did eventually swap the cutter of which I am more than pleased with. But much material was wasted. I refused to pay them for the materials because of faulty machinery supplied by them. They took me to court and offered no compo on my losses. Just came out and said its obviouse Mr. Williams has no experience and we can’t be held for his inexperience. Damn right I had no experience. I needed someone to show me and sort the kit out. Ended up with a ccj and the two fingers! Nearly went bust and the supplier did not give a damn! I understand the comment about 2 sides to a story but surely this can’t be right.

[John Childs]

quote KARL WILLIAMS:

but surely this can’t be right.

No, that does sound a bit extreme.

Well, once relations have broken down to that extent there is no chance of any service. The only thing you can do is put it down as a lesson learned, albeit an expensive one, and move on as best you can with someone else.

It’s a cold cruel world out there. 🙁

[Karl Williams]

Very True! (:)

[Marcella Ross]

quote KARL WILLIAMS:

They took me to court and offered no compo on my losses.

I’ve been in the very same situation, about 6 years or so ago. I will not name the supplier as I still have a copy of their lawyers letter threatening to sue for libel if I mention them on the internet! 😀
I agree completely that they know only too well that they can afford the lawyers to argue their cases when we’re ‘small fry’. It’s a shame.
It was a supplier I had very good relations with up until that point and I was more than happy buying both my machine and consumables from them.
But hey ho ……….. it didn’t do me any harm in the long run! I’m still here 😉

Marcella

[John Childs]

Is there a pattern forming here? Could it possibly be the same firm? Will we ever find out?

Marcella, that lawyers letter is a bit of an empty threat. If you only state facts then it isn’t libel.

[Karl Williams]

Be careful chaps. One of us may say the wrong thing and incriminating anyone wont do us any favours. It’s just handy to know I’m not by myself on this! One day the supplier may bite off more than they can chew and screw a big fish! Maybe a supplier would like to comment?Or maybe they are to embarrased!

[Karl Williams]

MARCELLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CHANGE THE PICTURE! YOU’RE DOING THINGS TO ME!