help please with fitting signs in shopping centres?

[Robert Lambie]

you will probably have to be on site, job done and off site before 7.30am
or you will not be allowed to begin until 1 hour after the centre has closed.
so you must build this into your pricing for out of hours work etc…

there will be other things to take into consideration but thats just the norm for these type of jobs.

[David Rowland]

Health and Safety
Risk Assessment approval
Work when say you got to do it.

You have to talk to the center managers first.
Some go swimmingly, some take a while to get approved.

[Fred McLean]

Best to phone the centre in questionWe tried to do a job in one recently and couldn’t as we didn’t have a work permit.etc etc. (hot)
The person we were dealing with didn’t know about them so a 3 hour round trip for naught.(got paid for the job) 😀

[Glenn Sharp]

the level of difficulty can depend on whether you are working internally within the shop or externally on it’s fascias…..we have been allowed to work during the centres opening hours if it is inside the shop and not in the walkways

[Martin Pearson]

Warren, as Dave has already mentioned speak to the Centre Manager first and ask them. What level of Public Liability insurance do you have because the Minimum in the Centre’s I have worked in is 10 million and some have stated a minimum of 20 million.

Like Robert has said most will only allow you to work out of centre opening hours and don’t also forget that under Health & Safety there will probably be a two man rule so you need to build that in to the quote as well

[Graeme Harrold]

quote Dave Rowland:

Health and Safety
Risk Assessment approval
Work when say you got to do it.

You have to talk to the center managers first.
Some go swimmingly, some take a while to get approved.

Get as much prep work done before you go. You should know the work you are taking on and can get the Risk Assessments done before hand. Although not legally required for business under 5 employees, if you are pitching for this kind of work, get yourself a health and safety policy written. Keep it simple and in pamphlet format so you can easily copy the relevant sections and present a pack to the "jobsworth", sorry centre manager up front and catch them off guard.

Sell yourself as a win-win tender i.e. clean & safe worker, trustworthy etc. If you can find someone else who has done work there, ask for information on what was required to be approved and go in pre-prepared.

[Graeme Harrold]

quote martin:

Warren, as Dave has already mentioned speak to the Centre Manager first and ask them. What level of Public Liability insurance do you have because the Minimum in the Centre’s I have worked in is 10 million and some have stated a minimum of 20 million.

Like Robert has said most will only allow you to work out of centre opening hours and don’t also forget that under Health & Safety there will probably be a two man rule so you need to build that in to the quote as well

Might get away with talking to the centre security and get patched into their radio network as lone worker protection…..dont ask, you dont get.

[Warren Beard]

Thanks for the reply’s guys, it must be worth it though to do this work, This job is for a front fascia and is about 23×4′

I will give the centre manager a call tomorrow and see what they say.

Cheers

Warren

[David Rowland]

i forgot about the insurance… yep they want to see that

[Russell Spencer]

you will also have to check what type of sign the centre will allow, usually it is down to a fire rating, class 1 or sometimes even class 0, it will be specified in their fire risk assesment. Both of these pretty much rule out acrylic and foamex.

edit: sorry just read the OP, this only about installation. So my comment maybe a little O/T.

[Warren Beard]

I am also making the sign as well as fitting it so that is a good point. It is however for a up market retail store so it will have to be quality and conform to those standards if necessary.

cheers

Warren

[David McDonald]

Hi Warren

We are currently working nights all this week on shopping centre signage.

We have to provide

Copy of survey / audit
System of works, materials specifications / ratings, COSH paperwork
Very detailed H&S plan
Method Statements
Boom operation training certificates / harness check register
Manual handling training certificates !!!!!
Public liability insurance paperwork

Hours and hours of work before we even set foot in the place.

I’ve never been asked about fire rating though – but I guess Forrex / acrylic / sign vinyl should be OK as looking at the specs they are listed as "self extinguishing"?

Cheers
Macky

[David Rowland]

sign material not come up before for fire related matters but has at NEC for an exhibition

[Martin Pearson]

Some of the Centre’s I did work in use to stipulate either class one or class zero materials but it was a bit of a joke in at least one centre because you didn’t have to provide any documentation and looking around there were always signs that didn’t comply.

[Kimberley Edwards]

Funny you should mention signs in shopping centers – I just finished 14 of those. I’m sure there is a world of difference in regulations between here and there. In my case, I was hired to paint 14 identical "for lease" window signs by a company that managed several different shopping centers. They had tried banners, which blew down, as well as static clings and corroplast with suction cups, both of which fell down, so they decided to go with interior window paint. Since I was working inside of vacant stores (a perfect environment for me) I didn’t have to worry about exterior sign regulations. The shopping center environment does present it’s own set of challenges – you will probably have to park your vehicle quite a distance from where you’re working, for one thing, so getting your gear from point A to point B can be problematic, especially if it’s an indoor center with few entrances.

[Russell Spencer]

quote Macky D:

I’ve never been asked about fire rating though – but I guess Forrex / acrylic / sign vinyl should be OK as looking at the specs they are listed as “self extinguishing”?

Macky

Absolutely not, acrylic is one of the most flammable plastics around, not only does it burn but it then drips and the drips don’t extinguish they carry on burning, class 0 rated materials are polycarbonate, aluminium and dibond, some foamex types do fall in to class 1, but most have a continental ‘M’ rating and there is no direct comparison.

Even though it has not been specified by the customer, I can pretty much guarantee that if he checks his lease/contract it will specify class 1 or 0 signage and sometimes shop fittings in and around the public walkway areas have to be the same. It s all to do with Fire Escape routes and keeping them as safe as possible.

[Warren Beard]

Is this type of work then rather best to sub the fitting out to a company that has all this in place?

I suppose if it is going to become more regular then rather get my paperwork in order now although I might be inclined to sub it as I also work alone. 😕

[Russell Spencer]

Warren,

there is nothing wrong with working alone, so long as you have lone working procedures.
When one of my lads is lone working, ie. not in a public area but isolated, then we have an agreement that he rings in every 30mins, if he doesn’t then we ring him if he doesn’t answer then we call the emergency services or site contact and pass on the details where he is working.

If he is then found in MacDonalds down the street with his phone swithched off, he is for the high jump..!!! 😀

[Simon.James]

Hi Warren

Nice to see you got some big jobs on, fitting in a shopping centre, technically

a. the shop needs planning permision from your local council, unless you are changing Like for Like.
(this could take up to 6 weeks to get or more, and there is a charge for this!)

b. if you using scaffolding or working at heights, technically you need a paving permit again from the council and in wales it costs £35, you also need to supply a risk assesment and a method statement, you may also be asked for your companies statement of intent and a copy of your companies health and safety procedures

but the good news, nobody ever bothers, i suggest you to a quick job on a Sunday morning if possible, thats what I have always done.

the only time I have ever heared of a signwriter getting into trouble was in a little village close to us in Cardiff, Called Cowbridge an old Market town with listed buildings, a sign went up without permission and he had to remove it a few weeks later when some busy body with nothing else better to do, complained to the council

working in a shopping centre wouldnt put me off doing a job, but i probably wouldnt hang around doing it and i would certainly do it out of hours.

Simon – Cardiff

[Dave Harrison]

Hi Warren

Hope you are doing well, I posted a thread last year regarding working in shopping centres.

Please don’t be put off, but you really need to have your house in order. You will need everything discussed so far. . Written copy of survey, risk assessment, detailled specification,method statement, copy of insurance, blah, blah, blah. . .

. . . and after all that you might be lucky enough to have a Centre Manager who doesn’t think its below his/her job description to actually talk to you !

I might have just been unlucky but so far I have found "Centre Managers" to be little men with something to prove, taking great pleasure from showing how much power they have in their little worlds. . .

I’m all for correct and safe working procedures but taking into consideration the time and paperwork involved just quoting for such a job, you have to ask yourself. . . . is it viable or even profitable for a one man operation.

I only say this because I have been there done it and got the t-shirt so to speak. .. and to be honest apart from a nice picture in my portfolio it wasn’t worth it. . . the same time invested producing vehicle livery or smaller signs would have produced far more profit !

Like I said its not my intention to put you off, I’d just like to give you something to think about before investing valuable time.

Best of Luck

Dave 🙂

[Warren Beard]

Hi Dave

Thanks for the info and it’s nice to hear from somebodies direct experience who is in the same situation as me.

Those reasons are the reasons why I suggested outsourcing the fitting to a company that already has all that in place, I should be doing alot of other work for this company so want to keep it in house, I think outsourcing might be the way to go for now and might ask in the members area of anybody who can help but will wait until closer to the time as I haven’t even had any specs yet only size and location.

cheers

Warren

[Russell Spencer]

quote Dave Harrison:

I might have just been unlucky but so far I have found “Centre Managers” to be little men with something to prove, taking great pleasure from showing how much power they have in their little worlds. . .

I know exactly what you mean, but in certain circumstances if he allowed work to be done without the correct paperwork he could be prosecuted and (god forbid) an accident resulted in a death then he would be up for manslaughter. Its exactly the same for site foremen, they carry exactly the same level of responsibility on a building site.

[Simon.James]

Hi Warren

be very careful outsourcing, personally when it comes to business i wouldnt even trust my own grandmother and she’s been dead 20 years.

if your outsourcing the fitting make sure to pass it on to a buider or maybe a chippy to fit and no way another signwriter, trust me mate i have been there and i am still not speaking to another local guy 3 years later, who took a good client away from me. the first thing the customer said was why are you doing the work when i paid Simon to do it, we will use you next time? can you do it cheaper? would you like a cup of tea and a biscuit, contract gone

great to hear you are bagging some business, well done mate.

kind regards

Simon

[Simon.James]

Hi Warren

its not difficult to get your paperwork in order, i can suggest a great company for insurances, i have building cover, working at heights, 20 million liability, ground works, liability for staff (this doesn’t count though, because anyone found talking to claims direct goes straight in to a body bag and into poscrete, paragraph 12 of my companies employment contract)

and even loss of earnings through fire or theft all for £59 a month.

As for the paperwork there are companies out there who will produce method statements, hse procedures for you based around your needs for about £300.

personally i would tap someone up in a big company you know, ask for a word document of theres and write your own I done this it took me 3 whole days, as i was asked to tender for a big chemicals company, I was very nervousely called into to see the Health and Safety manager, who told me I had produced the best set of contractor notes the company had ever seen in 20 years.

[Warren Beard]

Thanks Simon

I agree with you and would like to have all that in order as it would save a lot. I suppose I could see if I could get it together and if they are happy then I suppose it’s all good then.

Best I wait and see what’s involved and take it from there, I would like to do it myself but time and money has to be right otherwise I will more than likely learn the same lesson Dave did 😕

Is this paperwork something that has to be re-done each year or once it’s done it’s done?

Cheers

Warren

[Martin Pearson]

Warren, having done quite a bit of work in various shopping centres I would say it is worth doing and Dave was maybe a bit unlucky or maybe I was extremely lucky !!
Yes some Centre Managers can be a bit power mad but in my experience if you are prepared to go in there and bow and scrape a bit then they are not so bad and once you have made the initial contact you don’t generally deal with the manager anyway.

Most of the paperwork required is pretty easy to put together and will also come in handy when dealing with other types of site work and some of the bigger companies as well and No it doesn’t need to be done everytime. Things like method statements will not change a lot at all over the years and the same method statement can be used for lots of different jobs with just some minor changes.