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Has anyone seen this before?
I would like some opinions on this problem that has arisen at our end.
Before I start please bear in mind that I have literally liveried 1000’s of vehicles by now and we are by no means novices.
We insurance repaired the rear doors of a customers 3 days after it it came out of the oven at the insurance repair garage.
Customer, 2 days later, decided he wanted a small amendment to the logo so can he take the opportunity to switch it over?Applied very slight heat to the corner of the decal, enough to get a thumb nail under and pulled the decal away (again, same thing I have done 1000’s of times) and take a look at what happened!
Everyone around me (some of whom have painted for Rolls Royce for 20 years) have told me that clearly the paint has not been applied correctly, insufficient hardener or badly prepped surface but the insurance company have, and I cannot believe this, laid the blame at my doorstep because I used a heat gun!
I really am not going to be landed with something that I feel we have zero responsibility for and would be grateful for any opinion, help or advice.
thanks
Ryan
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19 Replies
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I would say the paint has not been keyed properly, or not had sufficient time to harden.
I do a lot of insurance repairs and have come across this a couple of times, luckily I have aways advised the repairers that any vinyl is applied and removed at their risk regarding paint lifting.
It does not happen with a factory finish, or a proper refinishing process. which should involve curing in an oven as you mention.
Ideally paint should be left for a week or longer before vinyl is applied, but in the real world, this seldom happen.
The problem you have, is you agreed to do a change rather than just a repair,
so the repairer could argue that the paint was ok when it left them, and should have been left to cure, although even after 6 months if the paint had not been keyed properly then the same think would most likely have happened.
so it maybe a struggle to get them to redo at their expense.
Good luck,Peter
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Ryan, has an insurance assessor actually had a look at this or have they done this over the phone/email? I am guessing that the insurance company are looking for a scape goat and it’s easier to lay it at your feet than the spray painters/bodyshop.
No expert but I would have thought that if this damage had been caused by you using a heat gun then there would be some evidence of scorch marks/heat damage which there clearly isn’t from the pictures.
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The assessor has heard the phrase ‘heat gun’ and decided to nominate us as the faulty party without even seeing the vehicle.
We have explained that the temperatures needed to wrap a vehicle for example far out way anything we did on this vehicle and a heat gun is a tool of our trade.
The fact that the paint had not adhered sufficiently to the surface is the cause and nothing else.I have advised the client to push the insurance company to actually do their job and have the paint professionally assessed.
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Do another test piece with your customer present. Apply the vinyl then leave it the same amount of time to adhere as the original. Then call him back and peel off COLD in his presence. See if the paint lifts off. If it does it is clearly the fault of the painters. Also look carefully at the area that has been prepped to see if you can see any tell tale sanding marks.
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Did remove the decal in the presence of the client and he is not disputing the fact that the fault lies with the painter but because the painter has dug his heels in, it has gone back to the insurance company.
The surface beneath the paint had a dusty silver finish to it and felt completely smooth, not ‘keyed’ or sanded.
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Without a doubt the problem is with the paint. Dig your heels in and tell them this is not your responsibility. You can’t be blamed for a substandard paint job.
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Not that it helps with this particular issue, but I refuse to letter anything that has been freshly repainted no matter what anyone tells me.
Minimum wait at my shop is two weeks no matter what type of paint or process used.
In the future, have some sort of waiver drawn up to protect you in case this happens again.
Not your fault at all, it’s just what happens when you don’t wait long enough or the paint job is sub par.
Love….Jill -
Definitely not your problem. We had an ELWB Transit that had panel graphics the customer wanted stripping and a new design adding. Our guys started stripping it, noticed the top layer of paint was coming off and stopped. We called the guy back in, we refused to take any stick for it, respray wasn’t done correctly. He eventually got the garage to pay for the repairs to the paint job and we finished the job – after about 6 months of to’ing and fro’ing.
Long story short, not your fault. Blame the re-sprayer.
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Does anyone know the temperature that is required when wrapping vinyl….
We will not be accepting any responsibility but I do care for my customers and any inconvenience caused to them is something that I indirectly feel also.
Nothing worse than trying to convince someone with no experience of our industry that you have not done anything wrong and they keep asking for my advice as to what to do next.
My main response is to push the insurance company to do their job and actually look at the thing before casting accusations around.
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Ryan most, materials have an optimum temperature requirement of around 20deg C.
with a bare minimum of around 15degC for application.
but if you asking about post heating, then this can be between 80-150CPeter
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hey they use flames in the USA, not a heat gun
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NOT YOUR FAULT
cruddy paint job…. -
This reminds me of the duff Ford silver paintwork back in the seventies.
If anyone remembers, the top coat just peeled away leaving the primer.
It was caused by incorrect top coat and primer combinations. -
It not only happens on shoddily re-sprayed vehicles. We just had a similar case on a FACTORY sprayjob.
The van, a (ahem!) Chinese made nock-off of a Toyota ("Golden Dragon Bus Company :lol1: ) had the paint coming off all over.
Since this is a short term wrap (on for 6 months) I used Avery MPI 3000 vinyl. (not air release type) The print is made nose -to-tail in one piece. The applicators pull the backing off the whole print, and lightly position against the sides of the van, then lift the print off to squeegee down properly. Even with the vinyl just barely touching the paint (no squeegee’ing yet) when the lifted it of large areas of paint came away….This happened on ALL the panels!
The paint layer was paper thin – you can scratch it off with your finger nail where the vinyl lifted it off !! The paint on these "quality" chink products is so good, after only a few weeks at sea during transport, rust spots develop all over the bodywork.
We called the client in, and showed him what happens. He was mad as hell, fortunately at himself for buying that piece of junk in the first place.
What would happen if we remove the squeegeed vinyl after 6 months is going to cause a few giggles!
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Take the veh to another body shop ask them what they think ! and im sure they will say paint fault and get them to put it in writing its a paint fault, assessor has to go with an independant assessment then…
My brother has been painting cars for over 20 years and any fault like that he would just redo it without question as his work is his reputation and for the few hours it would take to put right its not worth any hassle AND the customer leaves with a smile on his face 😉 -
Some pictures of the offending Chinese Van…
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quote Peter Normington:I would say the paint has not been keyed properly, or not had sufficient time to harden.
I do a lot of insurance repairs and have come across this a couple of times, luckily I have aways advised the repairers that any vinyl is applied and removed at their risk regarding paint lifting.
It does not happen with a factory finish, or a proper refinishing process. which should involve curing in an oven as you mention.
Ideally paint should be left for a week or longer before vinyl is applied, but in the real world, this seldom happen.
The problem you have, is you agreed to do a change rather than just a repair,
so the repairer could argue that the paint was ok when it left them, and should have been left to cure, although even after 6 months if the paint had not been keyed properly then the same think would most likely have happened.
so it maybe a struggle to get them to redo at their expense.
Good luck,Peter
Spot on Peter, and the fact it’s lacquer as oppose to paint just makes it more likely. I always say to customers that want stuff written too quickly " I’ll guarantee it’ll stay on, but won’t guarantee the paintwork when you take it off" Adding heat to fairly fresh paint really is the icing on the cake, it’ll just tear it off.
If it’d been painted a fair time, week or more for paint, couple of weeks for lacquer, them it’s the painters fault. (badly prepped, non computable materials etc)
By all means fright it, but I’ve been doing vinyls over 20yrs, and have built and sprayed kit cars and customs for about as long (generally my own stuff, but often as paying jobs) So I can see both sides.
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Don’t paint much now days but have done years ago, the reason for the laquer is normally that the metallic paint has been dusted on to get a good sparkle or colour match and allowed to dry completely before the lacquer was applied this means that the lacquer is just holding on to the loose metallic particles & nothing else. A vehicle painted & baked correctly in an oven should be ok to write within 24 hours but metallic is always a risk
Kev
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Lacquer is dry out the oven, once it’s cooled, to an extent as for it to withstand the elements, ie the drive home etc. It will however continue to harden further for several weeks. This is particularly obvious should you flat and mop after spraying. New lacquer is much softer, and the heat of the mop can make it very soft again. It is the same issue as putting the heat gun on it.
It is quite possible for a proficient sprayer to burn through fresh lacquer, infact far more likely than a heavy handed valeter to burn through lacquer that’s been done for months.
Another thing is, this being just a little job, it probably didn’t get that long in the oven either.
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