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grrrrr customers…….who needs em !
Is it me or are things getting worse out there ? I’ve been in business on and off since I was 18 (which was quite a while ago unfortunately!) where customers used to have a little haggle and you’d do them a deal to keep their business but its all changed. Not only do they want a sign for nothing but they want it fitted too ! (and if you can’t do it today then theres a chap down the road that will !!). What has become even more annoying is there are people out there that are basically doing it for just that.
Don’t get me wrong I’m all in favor of free enterprise and competition is good but it all seems to have gone a little ridiculous. I used to be quite a fan of the well known on-line auction site (you know which one it is !) but now I’m not so keen. £28 for a van sign written with company name,trade and telephone number – 2 sides. After they’ve paid their listing and commission fees and taken out material costs they probably make £15 or so.
Creative design and professional, personal service have become devalued particularly in my area which is not that affluent.Is anyone else finding the same or is it my time of the month again ?? :vio:
😀
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25 Replies
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I think things are getting harder – you just have to start walking away from some of these jobs where the customers expectations are unrealistic.
Last week I was asked to quote to supply 100 signs made from clear polycarbonate printed in reverse and supplied with a self adhesive outdpoor durable backing. I offred a very keen price based on supplying 100 of these. The customer phoned today asking me to do 10 (as samples) so he could decide if this was what he really wanted. I told him I wasn’t interested in doing only 10. My quote was to supply 100 – take it or leave it (:)
He left it 😕
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No Lee i dont think your wrong . Things are definitely more difficult , and unfortunately there is people out there who are willing to do jobs for nothing . they usually dint last for long Dint do what i have done in the past and bow to it .Were in the design business …they want sticky back letters…let them go to halfords :D…..well that’s my opinion for what its worth
Regards Brian
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Lee, this reminds me of Jayne’s ebay post
Any mentions eBay to me in that context, I would just say go and do it then.
https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=114086&highlight=jayne+ebay#114086
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Plenty of discussion here on this in the past. Plenty of cowboys out there. People like our very own UKSB talented Jill from the States is working in a hardware store, because of these type of cowboys or cowgirls.
You just have to stick to your prices and not lower yourself to their game.
I was approached a few years back to sign write some huge cranes for the Gold Coast Indy. (The ones that hold the cameras over the track)
The signage was extensive, but I went in tight because there was 5 of them. Lost the deal because some out-of-work sign guy offered to do them in exchange for a couple of cartons of beer! He was on the dole, so couldn’t take cash, beer was the best currency for him.
The crane company couldn’t believe their luck.
End of the day, whilst people are prepared to pay nothing, there will always be idiots out there that have not got a clue how to make a profit and do it for nothing. Profit, it seems, is something that a business should not make because we are obviously ‘ripping off’ those with lower incomes than ourselves…
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I couldn’t have said it better myself.
95% of customers want a prime rib dinner of a sign at McDonald’s prices.
They want it SuperSized at no extra cost.
If you can’t or won’t do it, the schmuck with an eBay plotter just up the street will.
Then you get bad-rapped around town as being too expensive.
This is my 21st year in the trade and one of my worst financially.
Devalued? You betcha.
Love….Jill -
not by us Jill ….grovel grovel 😳 😀 😀 😀
Brian
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i believe this is why you have to try and find a “niche” market.
try to do something the customer can only get from you, and you can charge a decent price for..
the problem is..finding that market.
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How can you compete with stuff like this?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mini-Bonnet-Strip … dZViewItem
Find a niche market? if you do someone will under cut.
There is a limit to how low you can price something.
Peter
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ye peter but theve still got to fit them ..thats where most people would have a problem unless there in our trade
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Shane, Jill.
the market does change, as technology becomes cheaper, more people can buy their way into the market. 20 years ago signs were a sellers market, now the buyers dictate the price, supply and demand laws prevail.
The top end of the buyers market will always pay a premium for quality and exclusiveness, but.. you really have to separate design and production. large corporates pay big bucks for what appears to be simple logos and designs. they then get them produced at low cost because of the high volume.
So in my opinion the way to go is somewhere in the middle, I love jills art work, but you have to be able to sell it, as they say most artists only become famous after they die!
Give the buyer what he wants at a reasonable price, dont spend hours perfecting a sign that only an artist will appreciate. Dont worry if the font is not quite right, or the kerning is out a bit…Save that one for the decerning client, give the rest what they want.
A reasonable quality at a reasonable price.Art is art. signs are signs
Peter
No offence or critism meant or intended,
just food for thought -
Are you kidding Peter?
Each job I do, be it Correx or a handpainted masterpiece, has the same careful consideration put into it.
Even Nephew Art gets a good once-over.
My dad always said, if you are going to do something, do it right or don’t do it at all.
Proper kerning and use of color separates the pros from the hacks.
It is the knock it out, take the money attitude that has cheapened everything.
It is my job as a professional sign maker to educate the public on what works.
It takes only a little bit more time to make a design look “right”.
Love…..Jill -
Glad I am getting out of this stoopid sign business. Peter’s thoughts on the industry make me wanna puke!
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Yes, well, we’ve been here before haven’t we. But that isn’t what we’re talking about now.
All of us, the artists and those who treat it more as a business, want to be paid fairly for our work. Our argument this time is with those who aren’t worried too much about what they earn and undermine the prices.
And before anybody asks – no I can’t sleep. 👿
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quote Peter Normington:How can you compete with stuff like this?http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mini-Bonnet-Strip … dZViewItem
Find a niche market? if you do someone will under cut.
There is a limit to how low you can price something.
Peter
Oh dear, looks like they have forgotton to register with ebay as a business seller, (:)
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got to agree with Jill here Pete.
Even my cheapo-only-last-a-day-or-so-signs get the best my client can afford for their budget.
I consider each of my signs and designs an advert for my work, I don’t advertise as I have said before, so I need people to look at my signs and say ‘hey that’s a good job, who did that then?’
Everyone wants a bargain, don’t we all, but I see no value in going down the road that I’d be happy to produce a second rate job because the client does not want to pay for a first rate one. I’d rather not do it at all.
I can afford to be a little self rightous because I have heaps of work right now. Jill however has more talent in her little finger than me, so I fully understand her frustration, and stevo too.
I see nothing wrong with us all competing in a profit driven market. But some of these clowns have no long term prospects in the industry, and care little about the future, because next year they’ll probably be selling used cars or photocopiers. (apologies to used cars salesmen or photocopier salepeople, but you know whatI mean)
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Hi All,
I love the type of stuff Jill and Stevo do.. I have used several of their ideas on proofs for customers… especially the tutorial Stevo did on shading of letters.
When I do designs for customers I always do 2 different styles… The Stevo & Jill type with nice fonts, plenty of shadow, shading and colours. I also do a more simple design with less effects and quote accordingly for both… Guess which the customer goes for???? 95% of the time it is Budget!!!
They always say love that one!!! can you do it at the same price as the other??I decided to try and just do the more fancy design without the option of a budget type but found that I was loosing out on work to another company who were doing just basic stuff, at least 3 people who came here for quotes had their signs done in a more simple design by someone else.
They all loved the designs but not the price…
I guess it all boils down to price in the end with most customers
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Signs are signs, the little tacky stuff like “No Entry”, “No Turning” or “Keep off my land” etc. just doesn’t get much time spent on it.
However creating something like a company image could be termed as modern art, creating logos and making a business look unique where you attracting customers to that place more then the competitors is what we like to sell, good money in this if you get it right.
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quote Stevo Chartrand:Glad I am getting out of this stoopid sign business. Peter’s thoughts on the industry make me wanna puke!serious ? what you going into now ? surely cant be to far removed from sign or design ? jeez ! you n jill were a couple of people who’s work i spotted early on, often studying it to see how you’d done certain things, stil non the wiser but getting there ! good luck whatever it is,
i have to agree with most of the comments, i know in the big scheme of things that ‘m new myself, but i caan see where ya’ll coming from, i’ve near given up with ebay, if i cant make it in ten mins, from less than £3 material, and sell it for £20+ it aint going on there !
tis tough finding niche’s, you just have to think on something, see if someone else is doing it (ebay or otherwise) and then see if you can compete if they are, if no one is doing it, be sure to word the listing carefully, dont put stickers vinyl blah blah and chuck it anywhere, stick it in a specific section that will really only be browsed by the target customer, it aint easy, but i manage it from time to time, and thankfully, i havent seen any of my auctions being hijacked and sold at 99p since i began using those rules !
Jill, just remember ( hope this comes out right, its a compliment !)
all the famous artists were paupers 😀
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Stevo, I hope you’re not going too far away from the sign business and are still involved with art and design, your talents would be badly missed. JIll, I feel so annoyed for you, you have so much talent and still have to resort to working in a hardware shop to compensate for a poor financial year. People dont appreciate good design and quality when it smacks them in the face! Myself, Ive nearly had to take a second job to make ends meet ( thought about it a month or so ago ) Business isnt slow, its just so very difficult to make a decent profit on anything these days. I can be working my socks off but barely making enough to cover costs. All because competition is so fierce. For example, a local company managed to get their LWB Transit covered in vinyl graphics and logos, 2 sides, back and front for £90 just the other day! 😮 I cant compete with that so have to walk away and hope all their graphics fall off in a month or so.
Ebay is a waste of time and effort as you cant make a profit selling on there, everyone views it as somewhere to buy cheap stuff from. You have to pitch your sales towards the better class companies who are willing to pay for quality and when you have them, hang on to them like mad.
Ok grumble over………..work to do :lol1: -
i have also found that customers want signs made with the top materials……ie digi printing flat cut letters folded substrates etc etc then run at the price and a couple of weeks later u hear they had the job done for half the price……when you see he job ….no flat/moulded letter no fancy substrates no digi printing…….. just a bog standard foam/vynil sign…….. damn i could a done that for that price 😮
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As of now, I haven’t made a sign in five months and have stopped offering them, simply because there is no money in it. It’s just not fun anymore busting my ass making a measly little profit.
Materials have gone up alot here , there’s no profit to be had, customer respect is nil, and all they care about is price. The last couple quotes I priced it to make some decent money on it, knowing full well I wouldn’t get the job. I’m done even trying.
The industry has gone in the crapper and it’s tough to see alot of my friends constantly struggle to make a buck.I have been fortunate to work on some really nice sign design projects with world class signmakers. They pay me top dollar for my work but it’s getting to be a rarity.
My main focus right now is custom vector illustration. There’s pretty much 100% profit in it. Hard to beat that! And I really enjoy it! As far as signs go I am done with them and couldnt be happier.
Stevo
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whew..
Y’all is bringin’ me Down!!Just kidding.. Good discussion here.
I’m dealing with my own frustrations as of late, I’m still real busy and trying to do a lot of new things in the sign business. Trying to settle on a certain few and have at it!
I guess a lot of what’s been discussed is a reality and we all have to deal with it, so lately I’m still trying to focus on my business skills. I’ve got my prices in line lately and the work keeps coming, so that’s a good thing. For the most part I still Love this profession, and i’m gonna’ just keep trying to get better at everything I do.
I’m still focusing on improving my Design and Selling THAT… in whatever form, whether it’s a coro sign, business card, Carved Foam or a truck. If i can accomplish that, and stay busy, the cowboys can put snot on a board and sell it for all I care.Stevo… Good for you Bro, A Man With a Plan. Whatever you create is way cool by me, so Stick with the Illustrations if that’s makin’ you happy. You’re Fantastic at it and i believe there’s a good market for it. If it drys up, you’ll be able to sell something coming outta your head!
Jill, you still need to think about movin’ over here… I’m still strapped for cash, but i’m almost over the hump. I also still have the bottlneck of getting my work Cut weeded and taped, so as soon as i get the cash flow, i’m going to be adding staff for that. Then there’s the designs waiting on me.. I have brian helping with application, but he’s too fast, I can’t get the work ready for him fast enough. After that’s sorted we’ll be really busy all spring, and there’s plenty for you! Shoot. You’d probobly put me outta business by the end of the year!
These discussions are educational and Helpful, but Keep Smilin’ y’all.. Life’s too short.
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Greetings!
A sort of related question. Why is it, as an industry, we appear to have such a wide disparity of pricing? If you were to look at say, reputable plumbers, I would expect you’d find all their hourly rates, within reason, on par with each other. I’m not suggesting there are no cut-price tradesmen, it’s just that the sign business seems to have a whole lot more of them? As has been said before, how can you compete with people who will work for nothing? Is it because we’ve become too dependant on technology, first complaining it’s too expensive and then complaining it’s too cheap. Would we all ultimately be better off if Vinyl plotters were ten grand a time?
Oo.. I might be ramblin’ a bit 😳
Graham.
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you can retire with a settlement and a pension…..start a sign company working out of your garage and not be that bothered about your profit margins…….. beer money.
plumbing ? different story.
It’s up to us to supply quality signs…….. 😀
[even if us is someone that’s retired and works out of their garage…..competition’s good.] -
When Vauxhall shut down in Luton, lots of guys with redundancy pay outs went it alone, fortunately not many turned to signs, Bouncy castles, Car valeting, cleaning and ironing services and Limo hire were popular, Its far easier to do than signs. I can think of lots of other things to do that would not require a learning curve. Its not as simple as it looks. even though plotters are now relatively cheap.
Peter
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