Grafitti, "Art or Vandalism"

[Jill Marie Welsh]

I beg to differ with you, Luca.
While I am all about personalizing something to make it my own, I always follow the basic design rules I learned in art school and thru Mike Stevens (and many other signwriters, particularly Arthur Vanson)
There are certain colors that do not go together, for example.
And there is a certain way of laying out a sign that makes it easy to read.
Also rules like no all-caps on a script, using two scripts in one layout, etc.
I think a layout needs one main item, then secondary items.
Love….Jill

[Karl Williams]

quote Luca Cabano:

Well i see what you are saying but i guess from my younger days of being a graffiti artist i dont believe there should be any rules when i comes to designing. Just my opinion.

Luca,
Phil is looking at a professional view. I’m sorry but you can’t compare graffiti to real advertising or craftsmanship in a design. Your designs are from a way out point of view. Not one that will advertise for long term a
business.

Karl.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

I beg to differ with that statement too!
One of the best graphics people I know was once the premiere illegal graffiti artist in Pittsburgh.
His use of color is astounding.
Different strokes for different folks.
But we all need to learn the rules and then bend them if we choose.
But in a way that the design still pops.
Love….Jill

[Darryl Seager]

Grafitti

‘Art or Vandalism’

the examples that i have seen fall into both categories. Some of the stuff is astounding 😮

Graffitti is not really in the same sphere as Signage.

If that was the case , i may as well scribble some sketches on a pad and call it ‘Artwork’ 🙄 🙄

Hey, people do, and they get grants and sell their work for £000’s :lol1: :lol1:

[Luca Cabano]

Well there must be truth in what you say as you all seem to agree, i suppose there must be some rules otherwise it just starts looking like a mess! I dont really think about the rules i suppose i just know what looks right and what looks wrong. (I hope!) As for that van yes it looks a right mess but that is just taggin and not a piece.

[Graeme Harrold]

quote Luca Cabano:

Well there must be truth in what you say as you all seem to agree, i suppose there must be some rules otherwise it just starts looking like a mess! I dont really think about the rules i suppose i just know what looks right and what looks wrong. (I hope!) As for that van yes it looks a right mess but that is just taggin and not a piece.

Before I heard about the Mike Stevens book I had a reasonable grasp of what looked good and what did not. After reading the book I had the reasons as to why I thought something was good or not. I always analised where my eyes were drawn in a layout and the book added the theory to my gut instinct (plus it added so much more to the impact of my layout……….

[Jill Marie Welsh]

http://www.pinheadlounge.com/viewsearch.php?image=20457
This is the pinstriping work of my graffiti friend Atomik. He found out that he could make a lot of money doing scroll work and using a brush instead of a spray can.
OK, back to the topic at hand.
Love….Jill

[Karl Williams]

That’s not what I call graffiti Jill. Yes there are many graffiti artists out there that can do fantastic work in your eyes, but there "Business" is different to ours.
I personally can’t stand the sight of graffiti.

[Luca Cabano]

if you cant stand the sight of this then you dont like art mate!

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[Andrew Boyle]

http://www.banksy.co.uk/outdoors/horizontal_1.htm

Luca……Do people that do a lot of graffiti like Banksy or has he sold out….. 😀

[Luca Cabano]

No he is more about getting a point across than can control these days but he still does some nice work. He does alot of stencil work so he can get in there, throw it up and get out, this allows him to do it in well populated places and get a message across to alot of people.

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[Andrew Boyle]

always fancied the idea of digital guerrilla marketing….shame I only dislike ikea at the moment would like to leave stickers in store and car park……foreground…..foreground

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[Paul Humble]

Banksy is one of the finest artists out there and I admire his work, BUT its a different kettle of fish altogether, Banksy, as good as he is probably wouldnt have the first clue about getting the basics accross to the general public.

[Karl Williams]

quote Karl Williams:

THAT’S MORE LIKE IT ANDY! 😉

[Andrew Boyle]

In Jill’s words "I would beg to differ" 😀

[Andrew Boyle]

Karl…….I was referring to Paul’s quote 😀 [no edit in this post]

[Luca Cabano]

but paul he is all about getting across to the general public, you have to read into his pieces, i mean something like this says it

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[Chris Gusman]

Banksy uses his visual language to get his message across, we use ours.

I bet he’d be handy when you have to knock out a stencil for the local skip hire company though, he’d have it cut in no time!

I think he’s brilliant at what he does though.

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote Luca Cabano:

if you cant stand the sight of this then you dont like art mate!

i love seeing that sort of stuff…..not enough of it around, brilliant talent (who ever done it) 😀

nik

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote Phill:

In this example – the small business owner chose to use a graffiti artist to letter up his van

bet it would get noticed though 😀 along with the most annoying logo around just now ‘e-on’…….that designer hit a winner eh :lol1:

nik

[Steve Underhill]

quote Luca Cabano:

if you cant stand the sight of this then you dont like art mate!

THAT, is top notch, excellent who is the artist?

Im having the middle room of my shop graffiti’ed, the guy doing it is a skater we sponsor, he used to do the skateparks in London.
(legitimately) it looks brilliant i done right but I agree there are some awful pieces out there, that just give it a bad name and look like vandalism.

[Luca Cabano]

its by a german artist called daim and yes i agree that taggin and throw-ups give graf a bad name but if you cant stand back and admire the skill and talent that goes into a proper piece you need your eyes testing!

[Harry Cleary]

quote Luca Cabano:

but paul he is all about getting across to the general public, you have to read into his pieces, i mean something like this says it all!

Says all what exactly? It’s just a cheap anti American jibe. There’s nothing much else to read there, not one of Banksy’s subtlest.
While I admire the mercenary playfulness of Banksy, essentially, he is a politician who uses the medium of drawing and paint to make his points…..can’t quite call that ‘art’, it could be seen as propaganda by those who don’t have his point of view. As an art critic once said……’If you want to send a message, use the post office!’
As for the other piece by the German artist, it looks like a badly resolved study in form by a first year art student.
Just my opinion. 😀

[Karl Williams]

quote Andrew Boyle:

In Jill’s words “I would beg to differ” 😀

I was referring to the cheap drink ad.

[Steve Underhill]

quote Luca Cabano:

its by a german artist called daim and yes i agree that taggin and throw-ups give graf a bad name but if you cant stand back and admire the skill and talent that goes into a proper piece you need your eyes testing!

Im not sure if you mean me there, but I was agreeing with what you said about graffiti.
Its an art form and a very talented one, in the right hands.
In the wrong ones it is just as bad as anything the Tate modern can produce.

[Andrew Boyle]

quote Karl Williams:

quote Andrew Boyle:

In Jill’s words “I would beg to differ” 😀

I was referring to the cheap drink ad.

I was referring to Paul’s quote….I’m a slow typer 😀

[Steve Underhill]

quote Harry Cleary:

quote Luca Cabano:

As for the other piece by the German artist, it looks like a badly resolved study in form by a first year art student.
Just my opinion. 😀

I know you can paint Harry, but saying its bad artwork isn’t very fair.
People may not like your style, but it doesn’t make your work any less skillful
To be able to paint like that, holding spray cans layering it all up etc and to do it all without without outlines and just a rough sketch for reference is an outstanding skill.
Just because its different doesn’t mean its bad.
As it happens I like your artwork and his, in fact I like most styles so long as they take talent and skill.
What I hate is stacks of bread crates, unmade beds, and childish scrawls that are called "art" and sold in the Tate modern for hundreds of thousands of pound that’s what grates me.

[Harry Cleary]

I can see the skill in handling a paint can Steve….what I can’t see is art. And it is great graffiti but looking at it, it actually reveals the limitations of the medium. It is boring…the surface treatment is all the same and the colour is lacking in depth and subtlety…..hence the excessive use of white, a common mistake or cop-out by an inexperienced painter.
I never refer to what I do commercially as ‘art’…..it’s a craft and I’m comfortable with that.
If you don’t understand the rules of cricket you will find the game pointless and boring and its players overpaid…. same goes for what goes on in the Tate.
Hope that doesn’t sound preachy, just trying to get an alternative point of view across, as being told by Luca, that I need ‘my eyes testing’ grates with me! 😀 😀

[Steve Underhill]

Oh that’s fair enough.
I just think that graffiti was an excellent use of light and shade, I think we all perceive things in different ways and whats good to someone is no good for someone else, at the end of the day we are all good at something, I can draw but not paint.
I use a lot of digital art too, where that may be frowned upon by traditional artists it takes lots of skill and patience, same with my photography it isnt just pointing a camera at something, its about composition, angles and lighting etc.
I always like to give everything a chance, but some "art" really seems to be beyond that, like a crucifix in a jar of urine that that italian "artist" did a few years back?

Lol, pee in a jar, call it art, then think of a concept once its been accepted into the art world.
Give me traditional painting any day over all of it.
Great stuff.

[Luca Cabano]

respect to you steve for what you are saying, harry how can you say graffiti is boring? there are millions of different styles of graffiti and saying use off colour is lacking in depth etc you have been looking at the wrong stuff! and as an artist yourself i think its sad that you can see the tallent in others, as for banksy wether you think his stuff is good or not, his peices are worth hundreds of thousands, what are yours worth?

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[Harry Cleary]

While I agree that most conceptual art is difficult to get into (I don’t particularly like it) it is also easy to mock and dismiss it. Have a look at what Marcel Duchamp and the Dadaists where at in the 20’s and 30’s, it might explain a bit what the genre is about.
It’s really the same discussion as the one about good design, the recent Olympics logo discussion being a case in point, good design has rules as does the art world whether it’s to your taste or not.

[Andy Gorman]

Ahem….

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20080401/t … 4616c.html

I bet I’ve sold more designs than that Banksy bloke.

Anyway, we make signs to sell people’s businesses. Natural layout is the correct method for the majority of signage. Urban street art is an entirely different kettle of fishy wishies.

So there.

Oh, nice demo Phill.

[Steve Underhill]

Like I say, I give everything a chance and agree with whats being said here, signage needs to be clear and readable, which graffiti generally isnt.
However the 2 pieces posted here are in my estimation anyway top notch.
Not just anyone could pick up several cans of paint and do that, its very similar to airbrushing, which as we know isnt easy.
Anyway Im agreeing with everyone and like it all so not much of an argument from me.

But back on topic the Mike Stevens book is often read in the shop, especially when I pay my first visit of the day to the loo, its better than a newspaper or the BTC or Ashby catalogue

Actually now Rob has split the thread and totally confused me Its not on topic that last bit, Ill just leave it there anwyay

[Harry Cleary]

Its immaterial Luca what a piece is worth, the artmarket and art are two separate things. The Tate acquires art…it doesn’t speculate.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news … 05012.html

I actually framed the piece mentioned here on the morning of the auction (nearly cut it in two with a stanley knife 😳 ) and two people actually correctly identified it, but were excluded from buying because of who they were…my wife and my brother. The art market missed it which was the reason for the experiment.
Graffiti is good, I said that before and I like it……..its just not ‘art’………that is my point. You can have one of mine for my normal hourly rate! 😀 😀

[John Singh]

Some of it can be quite colourful …. and interesting!
Perhaps far better than looking at stone cold grey walls!
When analyzing it, it can be seen to be cleverly executed

However! You must feel for the man who has just painted over graffiti on his private residential wall only to find more the next morning

The sign-maker’s job is to get a clear message across quickly!
Clear messages are all about layout
So yes there are layout rules!

Remember that message is not his own! It’s the customer’s

[Steve Underhill]

I have to disagree that it isnt art, on the basis that some of the crap people produce like painting 3 stripes on a canvas and sell it is art.
or a big blob on a massive canvas etc, displayed in a gallery with numbskull socialites fawning over it and saying how "deep" and "meaningful" it is and how the artist is trying to get a point across, yea the point is you paid to see his 10 minute taken to paint piece of junk, thats cost you £15 for the privelige, he must be laughing all the way to the bank, I could knock those out all day.
There is NO talent in that, whereas decent graffiti has immense skill and talent, its the act of putting paint onto a medium, that quite simply makes it art, if its good then its good art, if its bad then its no different to the "modern" or "contemporary" artist churning out mindless drivel into modern art galleries.
Nobody has the right to say its not art when people are painting pictures a 3 year old kid could draw and hanging them in galleries, of course its art, its just a different art form, just like dancing is art, and drama is art they are just performing art.
Art isnt just limited to using a paint brush on whatever medium its used on.
Art can be anything creative, and if its sprayed onto a wall with paint, then its no less art than anyone who uses a paintbrush to paint onto a wall.
Like Michaelangelo, or Harry. :lol1:

[Robert Lambie]

quote John Singh:

Remember that message is not his own! It’s the customer’s

exactly…

[Harry Cleary]

I agree totally Steve, high street galleries are full of nonsense paintings that are fawned over by the people you describe but there are paintings there that will never grace the walls of the Tate or places like it.
If you want to understand what is going on in the Tate you have to separate Art from Craft, and commercial from non commercial art.
The fact is that Michelangelo, Raphael, etc where first and foremost craftsmen who operated under patronage…..’Art’ as we know it today only really developed in the 18th century.

[Andy Gorman]

I’m afraid I’m a bit old fashioned. Not that I don’t appreciate some modern work, but I prefer art to show some skill and vision.

I spent a day in the Louvre last week, and although much of it is religious art and isn’t strictly my cup of tea, there is some achingly beautiful work in there. I doubt our friend Banksy will be remembered in a couple of years, never mind 5 or 6 hundred years time.

[Robert Lambie]

been there myself mate… some really amazing massive paintings in there… then you come to the mona lisa! 😕 much smaller than i expected…

even some of the street artists outside it leave you gob smacked at their talent.

[Kimberley Edwards]

There have been many remarkable graffiti artists go through the sign program that I was in over the years. There is a natural love of letter forms, and the best graffiti artists tended to do some really impressive sign work once they were trained in the specifics. While they aren’t the same thing, there’s a natural affinity. They actively recruit people for the sign program at the graffiti pits. We have some great graffiti art here. When it’s over somebody else’s work, or somewhere it specifically doesn’t belong, of course it’s vandalism, but there tends to be a progression from what I’ve seen from vandalism to graffiti art and frequently into sign craft. As far as rules, once you know them, you can break them, but of course that implies that you know which ones to selectively break and which ones to maintain to hold the whole thing together.
Check out this link to the Seventh Letter Crew – they’ve got amazing murals in many areas of Los Angeles. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmewuji/se … 262572192/

[Peter Mindham]

Interesting thread although moved to Art as oppossed to Graffitti. However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and true art can take many forms other than the paintcan or brush

Peter

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[Paul Humble]

I agree with Peter, but still think the two mediums are incomparable.

But for the record, one of my favorite pictures I found on a website that hosts wallpapers.

[Marcella Ross]

I can’t see the argument in this ………… ‘art’ is subjective and what one person perceives as art another won’t.

😀

Don’t get me started on the Tate Mr Cleary, as well as ‘art’ all sorts of other sh!te makes it under that roof! 😉

[Gareth.Lewis]

A friend of mine once commented on that ‘art installation’ which was a light bulb going on and off. He said ‘that’s not art, that’s electricity!’

[Harry Cleary]

quote Marcella:

I can’t see the argument in this ………… ‘art’ is subjective and what one person perceives as art another won’t.

😀

Don’t get me started on the Tate Mr Cleary, as well as ‘art’ all sorts of other sh!te makes it under that roof! 😉

😀 😀 😀 😀

What is and isn’t Sh!te is in the eye of the beholder too! 😀

You can’t claim in one sentence that ‘art’ is subjective and then objectively call a good portion of what others define as art ‘sh!te’.
Answer me this……is putting on your eyeshadow ‘art’? Is a urinal ‘art’?
If it isn’t….. why isn’t it? and if it is…….. why is it?

btw……the second is in the Tate and is popularly called the ‘most influential work of the Twentieth Century’
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/dec/02/arts.artsnews1

[Andy Gorman]

I think what annoys me about some of this modern tat is that if I produced an ‘unmade bed’ it would be dismissed, but if some alcoholic bird does it it is hailed as a piece of genius.

I have no problems with functional items having beautiful form and becoming classics of design (like maybe, erm…that Citroen from the 50s)
or maybe even a urinal, but it isn’t art – it’s a toilet.

[Marcella Ross]

quote Harry Cleary:

You can’t claim in one sentence that ‘art’ is subjective and then objectively call a good portion of what others define as art ‘sh!te’.

But that is my whole point …………! What I would call art others wouldn’t and vice versa.

😀

[Paul Humble]

The Angel of the North is a perfect example, what a load of tat that is!

[Harry Cleary]

quote Andy Gorman:

I think what annoys me about some of this modern tat is that if I produced an ‘unmade bed’ it would be dismissed, but if some alcoholic bird does it it is hailed as a piece of genius.

I have no problems with functional items having beautiful form and becoming classics of design (like maybe, erm…that Citroen from the 50s)
or maybe even a urinal, but it isn’t art – it’s a toilet.

Carravagio liked small boys and possibly/more than likely committed murder, but most have no problems with his art, the artists private life is not important.
Yes you could present an ‘unmade bed’ but what would be important would be your intent. And that’s what is important here….the intention of the artist……I have stood in front of that piece and whether I liked it or not or rate it as ‘good art’ isn’t really important…..what is important is her right to present it as serious art, because I believe that her intention was sound.
The debate about this man’s work is very interesting in light of this debate.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/jan/11/arts.artsnews

My view of it is that while he is an undoubted master of his ‘craft’, his intention is to manipulate the viewer with romantic and clumsy allusions to a subtext that isn’t really there. It’s ‘easy art’ hence it’s popularity as pictorial wallpaper, like the music you hear in lifts!

[Glenn Sharp]

I wish I understood this thread 😳

[Robert Lambie]

Armani jeans… cost about £120 a pair. to look at them they look just like any other pair of jeans on the shelf with the exception of their price tag and of course the label.
Armani jeans are not actually made by the man himself. they are made probably by an under paid machinist in some factory abroad.
In a documentary it was stated as fact that it costs less than £2 to make and ship worldwide each pair of Armani jeans. yet his jeans are in hot demand and make millions every year from those lucky enough to be able to afford them.

One of his machinists leaves his employment and decides to start making exactly the same jeans, same material and quality, half the price but under her name. will she be as successful?

its a bit like what i said in reply to Andy earlier… you visit the Louvre in Paris seeing priceless work throughout. you walk outside and there are poor street painters doing amazing work as you watch. but will/could they ever demand the same prices?

i am far from being knowledgeable on the subject, but i do not think its about "oh that’s just that" and "my kid could do better" probably could in some cases… but its about the individual making the purchase. what it means to them, what they are willing to pay for that "one off" created by whoever…
there is also the fact most these days are "investing" in art. with the right buys on up and coming artists you can make many more times your money on the right purchase in a very short time, hold out some years and you can make thousands, millions if your lucky.
how many ISA’s, pensions etc can do the same these days with less risk on a return?
It’s here i ask myself who really is the mug? the guy spending £10,000 on a sock with a hole in the toe. to then sell it on 2 years later for £50,000… or us for laughing at them?

[Shane Drew]

Graffiti – ‘Art or Vandalism’ … Definitely Vandalism in my book.

Its Art if your paid to do it, or your commissioned for a job or something similar, but its vandalism if you express yourself on someones wall without their knowledge or permission.

I hate graffiti all over the walls of public places, fences and stuff. I’m all for the police throwing the book at these guys… Its urban terrorism at its most basic level.

… my dad reckons a graffiti’er needs to have the enamel spray paint applied to his private parts, let it go dry, then give them some paint thinners to remove it. Its the only way he’ll understand the grief and pain he’s caused the person who own the wall.

Calling it art is making them feel all warm and fuzzy, I’d rather call it a crime…..

They are trying to pass a bill here that the criminal that gets caught spraying graffiti on a public place has to repaint the wall at his expense or do community service…. painting over graffiti. I like my dads idea better 👿

Rant over now 😛 No offense meant of course 🙄

[John Gregson]

quote :

The Angel of the North is a perfect example, what a load of tat that is!

I thought the same as you when it went up, now years later my opinion has changed. When I’ve been away on holiday its the 1st thing I see when getting close to Newcastle, still can’t take my eyes off it when driving past.

In my eyes it is a work of art.

[Marcella Ross]

quote glenn:

I wish I understood this thread 😳

:lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:

[John Childs]

quote glenn:

I wish I understood this thread 😳

Me too. 🙁

What I do know is that any "artist" I catch practising on my walls will suffer for his art. 😀