getting the money in

[Dave Hambrook]

It gets worse when they say they have a payment date at the end of the month when they will pay the invoices for the previous month, you can be waiting 60 days sometimes and thats if they pay on time!!!
Good luck
Hammy

[Deleted User]

MAYBE JUST GO ROUND WITH A BIG STICK HAHA (JOKING)

[Brian Little]

its a hard reality David ….but welcome to the world of “working for yourself”….sorry mate to put a damper on things 😀 ..Id rather do work for the guy with a couple of run down transit vans …and a rusting JCB than the big garages …youve more chance of getting paid .The nearer you are with the guy that writes the cheques the better .I feel the bigger the company you just become a number

😳 😳

Brian

[Richard Urquhart]

what about a small discount if invoice is paid within 7 days
we use a company for our insurance work (car body ) that give us the money that day then deduct 3% off the bill
that way we can keep in the game some crash repairs are in to thousands with parts vinyl signs its a bit better as the outlay is not as big
rich

[Bill Dewison]

I know where you’re coming from, I’ve a couple of companies owing at the moment and it doesn’t look like the cheque will arrive without some mithering. Its annoying as you work really hard to get the order out on time and on budget, then you have to wait anything upto 90 days just to get paid what you’re owed. 😕

I switched to pro forma a while ago with a little help from Carrie, and its worked wonders for my cashflow, but its not always practical when you have to get a job out in record time. There just isn’t the time to sort the necessary paperwork.

As Rich has said, a small discount for immediate payment (which you can add on before you quote, just to take it off when the order is complete) may be the way to go, it’d get your money from the majority.

Alot of the time though you’ll find with companies that start out insisting on 30 days credit, they will back down when you say you want pro forma or payment on completetion. Either that or they go to other sign firms. Even smaller concerns have asked me for credit before I’ve even done a design, I’ve ended up having to tell them its impossible and they may be better going to another signmaker if they’re having problems with their own cashflow to the extent they can’t afford to pay me for their business signage. A tad harsh, but I’d rather not do the work in the first place than spend a month or two chasing monies.

Cheers, Dewi

[Brian Little]

well said Dewi ….i wish id written it like that 😀 😀

[Lee Harris]

Hi David

I take it that you do a written quotation. If so, put a line in like ‘ Payment due on completion of order’ we do some work for a local garage who pay on 60 days, via BACS. Phoned them up and told them that our terms are payment on completion and that the manager had signed off the quotation with that statement on it and we need paying. Two days later a cheque turned up. Speak to accounts department, sometimes they do understand.

Hope this helps.

Regards
Lee

[Joe McNamara]

Dewi’s hit the nail on the head on this one……
I only do pro forma for new customers, and even existing ones are balance on completion ( they get a phone call before I set out to ensure there is a cheque for me…..heard it all before, boss not here, chequebook just ran out, Director No 2 isin’t here si I can only put 1 signature …blah blah blah ) it’s all bul*sh*t !
I have an interest in another business as many of you know, and if we don’t have an account with the people we’re buying from – then it’s pro forma or we don’t get the goods. Last week a delivery driver even phoned up one of them agent things to make sure our cheque was ok , before he’d even open the van doors to offload the goods!
In the early days I did signs for people then struggled to get paid when the sign was on their wall.
There are three golden rules of success in this biz:
pro-forma
Cashflow
pro-forma
Follow these and you’ll never have a problem!
Good Luck
Joe

[Chris Hooper]

Some good information can be found at:

http://www.payontime.co.uk

The Better Payment Practice Group: a public private partnership that promotes good credit management practice.

http://www.courtservice.gov.uk/mcol/

The new on-line claims (summons) service for undefended debts.

[Nicola McIntosh]

hi david

i would go with the good replies posted. i know it’s hard and bewildering when you first start out…stick with it and go pro-forma until your more established 😛 (dewi is spot on, if they don’t agree with it there not worth doing business with) it gets better obviously the longer your in business, things turn around easier, one good thing and the only good thing about waiting 30 days…is paying your supplier :lol1: spandex is good as they give you sixty days to pay, so that gives you more time for your customer to send payment. 😀

don’t panic you’ll get there!! 😉

Nik

[Carrie Brown]

Proforma without a doubt 😀 If they dont have the money to pay you at the time of ordering what is guaranteeing they will have it on completion or in 30 days?

When we first started out we were a bit naive as were probably a lot of peeps here when starting up in business. At first we accepted payment on collection or invoiced but quickly realised not everyone is as eager to pay you as they are to place the order. Made the descision to go proforma ….. No payment no goods! Not had anyone quibble it over the last couple of years …. we make sure they know at the time of enquiry and state it on the quote aswell. We do have some larger clients on account who we have been dealing with for quite a while …. but even they can run into money trouble at any time so its wise to still be wary and have a credit limit on what they are allowed …. just the same as a supplier would give to you.

😀

[Shane Drew]

quote dynamite signs:

what about a small discount if invoice is paid within 7 days
we use a company for our insurance work (car body ) that give us the money that day then deduct 3% off the bill
that way we can keep in the game some crash repairs are in to thousands with parts vinyl signs its a bit better as the outlay is not as big
rich

All this advice is good here.

I usually offer a 30 day account because the bulk of my clients are corporate, but I will offer a 3- 5% discount for payment on delivery or within 7 days. It is amazing how many people will take you up on the offer. The problem with insisting on COD when you are new, is that you may offend someone who could turn out to be a good client in the long term. You could get a reputation of being uncooperative. Different if your signs were mega cheap, but if you are trying to make a decent margin, it may help to be a little flexible on payment terms.

From the clients perspective, they may already be dealing with a COD sign guy, and they are looking to find someone that will ‘support’ them until they can get their money in.

The secret is not to go in too cheap.

It is just a thought, but as I say, all the advice here is good and has merit.

I am not sure if it is the same over there, but a lot of the local government departments here MUST take a discount on an invoice if it is offered. So, if you do a job for them, and offer a 2% discount for COD payment, they must, by government instruction, take the discount and pay within the agreed terms.

A lot of multinationals in Australia have the same rules. I know of one company locally, that are not permitted to ignore any discount offered, even if it is 1%. They are more proactive tho, and negotiate a better discount if they pay cash.

It may pay to make an offer and see how you go.

Just a thought. Your markets may be different than mine tho.

Cheers
Shane

[John Harding]

As everyones sais all good advice – and this is my view, I judge new customers as best I can I insist all new customers pay a deposit or full amount depending on what your supplying, ie if you buy in a lightbox for instance, make sure you cover that cost plus a bit more upfront as a minimum payment, if it all goes t*ts up your not out of pocket, give bigger customers 30 days they cant hide so easily and will pay eventually.

Good Luck
😀
John

[Bill Dewison]

Thats the problem though John, they’ll pay eventually 😕 In the meantime, you have to withstand the monies you’ve paid out and the time its taken to do the job. Alot of the time, if its a big job, you’d have turned down or put off smaller work that would have put cash in your pocket instantly, or in my case recently, worked through the night to get the job done only to find that the cheque still doesn’t arrive when they say it will.

One of the most annoying aspects of late payment is the excuses. Personally I’d prefer people to be honest and just say they have no intention of paying me until a certain date, at least that way I can budget for the loss until that date. Its infuriating when someone uses an excuse that is obviously a ploy, but then expect fully that you will continue to make signs for them, even before they’ve paid the last invoice.

Starting out in the sign business is extremely difficult when you’re relying on it as your sole income. You rarely make a profit immediately, and unless you account for late payers and particularly non-payers, you’re, well, buggered! 😕

I’ve spoken to alot of people who aspire to run a sign shop, most of whom work from home, but again, this can be a killer for your cashflow and unless you’re careful your business. If you run a sign shop, you have to have stock, and all the time its sat there its dead money. Don’t get me wrong, every sign business needs a certain amount of stock, not just sign shops, but its something that needs to be considered for every startup. Since I started out, its been tough to get things to balance and if I had my time again I’d most probably start out from home or head towards a unit as the whole cashflow would have been easier in my opinion.

I’m ranting away, but I think the point I’m making (if there is one 😛 ) is that late payers, non-payers etc. have a knock on effect and unless you have an practical way of combating this effect, you could end up driving a fork lift truck and finding out what a maxed credit card looks like faster than you can say bad payer. 🙁

Cheers, Dewi

[John Harding]

Dewi ur spot on there M8 😉

[Simon Clayton]

I’ve had that a few times…very frustrating.
One i had, owed money, for about four months, all the excuses, cheque in post etc, anyway he wanted more signs for an exhibition, “yep i can do them, when you need them by”. The dead line is three weeks. no problem….
So as time went on, he kept calling, don’t worry i would say, you’ll have them in time, so when the day of the exhibition came, he called ranting about where his signs were, “I’ve had some problems, but will deliver them personally to NEC by 10.00am. He finally called back at about 11.00am close to tears, asking where i was, with which i replied, “sorry i can’t deliver them as i ain’t got enough money for diesel, I’m waiting for so many people to pay me for work i’ve done them, err like you for instance”..

Must say that was a good feeling, and hopefully taught him a lesson

Simon

[Jayne Marsh]

Ive got a problem at the moment with a bad payer. This time its a committee that needs to pay me. I provided them with two perfect signs, “Lovely ” they said. I havent heard a thing since despite repeated requests for payment. I think its a case of waiting for the next committee meeting, but Im not sure. How do you go about chasing payment from Committees?

[John Simpson]

Simon,
That sounds brilliant, I bet you enjoyed that. I must remember that one for the future.
I certainly hadn’t thought of doing that even though i have had the chance in the past. 😳
Obviously not quite as devious as you, but i will learn. :lol1:
L J

[Deleted User]

Hi everyone,
some great advice thanks. I think judging the customer plays a real part on how you will get paid. If its for a wee chippy on the corner i think COD is the way to go but if its a larger client who you know will pay then allow a bit of time. My problem is that im spending a fortune on materials etc and getting nothing back. im just waitin on the bank ringin to ask whats going on. Another problem is i dont want to sound cheeky by askin for COD, but again maybe explaining myself to the customer, saying that ive just started and would appreciate COD and will maybe offer credit in the future depending on references etc, might be an option. Its just im starting to worry a bit cos all the moneys going out and not coming back in.

[John Simpson]

quote :

and will maybe offer credit in the future depending on references etc

David,
The point is we have to apply for credit accounts for our materials but big firms that you will work for will not even mention it. It isn’t until you remind them that they owe you money that they mention they pay on 45 / 60 / or 90 days. It is too late then.
You learn as you go along to ask how they pay 1st, then work out the quote & add some on knowing you will have to wait for payment.
L J

[Chris Wool]

just thinking about the europoint account forms etc do they want my business is this what we should get our customers to fill in before they take there sign away or drive off down the road. there has got to be some middle ground some where

having spent a lot of time behind the counter in a shop i learned one thing the customer in front of you could be the niceist person you are ever likly to meet or the biggest rogue only many visits and time will tell you which.

customers it would be easy with out them.

chris

[Simon Clayton]

Very good point that Lj… I’m always amazed at how big companys work, have done work for one very large company and had to wait over 90 days for a couple of hundred, yet did some work for them last week and they paid within two days??? i must have caught the tri-monthly cheque run… 😀

Simon

PS forgot to mention, i never did get the money i was owed but it was well worth getting my revenge

[Andrew Boyle]

doing work for a larger company at the moment and on their terms payment was 90 days providing the invoice was prior to the 20th of the month…..!!!!!!

when we said these terms were unacceptable THEY asked for a reduction in price……!!!!!!

told them in writing we were prepared to do the work on our standard terms of 30 days with no discount…..[not even a large job]

they agreed……

it makes good business sense for them, however it’s the same companies that are sponsoring events promoting small businesses….

!!!!!!!!

[Neil Kelly]

Trading for 15 years now and have only lost 2 jobs because we insisted on a deposit, I can live with that I’m a Sign maker not a Bank. And I have only taken one sign down due to none payment and then when they did pay I charged them again to fit it ( in advance of course ) Here is a copy of our terms that appear on the bottom of all quotes and emails. you are welcome to use if it helps get your position across.

TERMS & CONDITIONS:
All prices are quoted Net of Value Added Tax at current rate. Quotations are valid for 60 Days from date of Quotation.

Orders are only accepted in the following ways

A: 50% Deposit at time of order.

B: Account customer orders should be verified in writing or be accompanied by an official purchase order.

By supplying the above the customer enters into a contract of sale and agrees to all terms and conditions as submitted.

The final balance of payment if outstanding is due immediately on completion of work unless agreed otherwise and confirmed in writing.

Orders for screen-printing, etching, engraving, garment embroidery and printing, or on request are to be paid for in full at time of order being placed.

All goods, services and fixings will remain the property of and can be reclaimed by Action Signs until full and final payment has been received and has been cleared.

The customer shall remain a bailee only and title of goods remains with Action Signs until final payment is received.

After an approved length of time and a sufficient volume of trading a credit account can be applied for subject to further terms and conditions, available on request.

If any ones got any suggestions for improvements let me know

[Joe McNamara]

Neil,
Does that allow you to take signs down by law….I always thought that once it was on their wall you had to haul them through the courts to get any joy……does the bailee clause get round this?
Cheers
Joe

[Peter Normington]

Just my 2p
You can take down the sign as long as you do not have to gain access to the property to do so. So if its over a shop/unit with public access no problem. If any item is not paid for you still own it. Exceptions apply if part payment has been made. (so if you take a 50% deposit you only own half the sign) In practice If the customer cannot produce proof of title, he is unlikley to take you to court for reclaiming your property.
Terms and conditions can actually go against you in a court of law, They have to be precise and specific. I just keep it in plain english.
Peter

[Shane Drew]

Welcome to the world of the self-employed mate 😛 The startup is always hard. Especially if you are undercapitalised as most of us are when we go it alone.

Communication is really the key I suppose, as you say. Most people would understand if you explained your circumstances I am sure.

Some of the responses here are a bit further than I would go I must confess. Although I would love to react like Simon C says, my market here is way to competative to react that way as it would bit me in the backside at some time in the future (it may also have contributed to why Simon did not get paid in the end too IMO). I have done work in the past where I have had to sit in the office reception witing for a cheque. Everytime another client of my client arrived in the room, I’d make it clear the the receptionist that I was still waiting for the cheque etc, loud enough for the people in the room to hear. You don’t have to be rude, but they begin to get so embarrased that they will pay you to get rid of you.

I don’t do work at all for Barristers or solicitors, as they are the worse payers of the lot. If they decide not to pay they know every law in the book.

End of the day it is one of this perpetual problems associated with a small business. The Bank will expect you to tell them what your plans are to get the money in when they do eventually ring, so I’d perhaps find a solicitor that will follow up late payments, so you can at least tell the bank that you are on to it.

Hope it goes well mate, but there is a fine line between selling signs and trying to collect the money.

From a legal perspective the best piece of advice I ever got was to write all you times and conversations you had in your diary, in regard to collecting money. Then, if it does end up going down the legal phase, you have it all documented, and it makes the process easier.

To take a sign down after it is installed here in Australia is theft according to the law. I have a statement on my invoices that ownership of signs does not pass to the client until I have been paid, but if it was contested, I’d probably lose in court. 😥

Another client of mine overcame his payment problems by taking credit cards. He said that his non-payment problems have almost disappeared. I am arranging with my bank now to get an efpos machine, Seems the way to go for me.

Cheers
Shane

[Peter Normington]

Shane
You say that to take a sign down after its installed is theft?
So is it the same, if you can persuade a supplier to install a print and cut machine at your premises for a demo. and then refuse to let them take it away cos there nickin it?
Peter

[Shane Drew]

quote Peter Normington:

Shane
You say that to take a sign down after its installed is theft?
So is it the same, if you can persuade a supplier to install a print and cut machine at your premises for a demo. and then refuse to let them take it away cos there nickin it?
Peter

Peter, the basic difference is that the sign is ‘fixed’ but the machine is not. Plus an invoice was drawn for the sale of the goods. A demo would not come under the law as it was not ‘sold’ to you.

I sold a new computer to a client some years back, and his cheque bounced. I went to collect the computer and they called the police. I was cautioned that it would be considered theft because I had ‘sold’ the computer to the client and issued an invoice. The administrators were called in, sold the computer to recover costs, and to this day, I have never seen any money. So I hope that answers your question. 😥

[Peter Normington]

Shane, i’m no lawer, but I cant see how any court could convict you of stealing your own goods. The problem arises when you need to access premises. Here in the uk if an invoice is issued and a checque bounces, it is technicaly fraud, the law will only interveen if the cheque was for loads a money, Otherwise they say its a “civil” offence
Peter

[Lee Attewell]

It’s pretty easy to say but hard to do. We (like Neil) give our customers a terms and conditions before we even sit down and discuss their signage needs. It lets them know exactly what they’re up for and protects us against them stealing our art or designs.

We insist on 50% up front deposit before we commence manufacture, and balance on day of fitting. You’d be surprised how many people pay the full amount up front. In fact yesterday, we have had a customer agree to go ahead with some business cards and van signage. She paid nearly $900.00 up front…Got the cheque in my wallet now. I’m buying her vinyl today and fitting on Tuesday.

If you ask for it with integrity you will get what you want. Give it a shot…It’ll be hard the first few times until you get it rolling off your tongue “Ok, I’ll have it ready for you to pick up on Tuesday, how will you be paying the deposit?”

[Shane Drew]

quote Peter Normington:

Shane, i’m no lawer, but I cant see how any court could convict you of stealing your own goods. The problem arises when you need to access premises. Here in the uk if an invoice is issued and a checque bounces, it is technicaly fraud, the law will only interveen if the cheque was for loads a money, Otherwise they say its a “civil” offence
Peter

Peter my cheque was for $12000, and it is also considered fraud here to be paid by a dishonored cheque, but you have no rights to take the unit back. You must go thru the due process and have a lawyer persue it on your behalf.

For me to chase my money thru the court was going to cost me in excess of $15000, and with the client being taken into liquidation by, in this instance, the tax dept, there was simply no money left for me or suppliers like me.

The point is, although I do have a fraudulent claim, the law here still does not let me take the unit back, because the client is given the benefit of doubt that he can still pay for the goods at some time in the future. A good solicitor can apply to the court and make an arrangement to pay. I can reject the claim, but I must do this thru the legal channels.

I agree that it is black and white as you say, but I have learnt a long time ago that you should never confuse justice with the law.

I had one of my staff caught red handed by the police, selling some goods stolen from my shop, at a pub. He offered to pay for the goods stolen, and the police advised him to give the money to his solicitor, so his solicitor could give it to me.

His solicitor kept the money for payment of services, but it was recorded that I had been paid. It was then up to me to chase the solicitor for the money. I could not get a solicitor to take the case, because they had a ‘problem’ suing there own. Even the law society advised me to put it down as a ‘loss’. They were not prepared to go him on my behalf either. I suggest that they all do it.

Of course, the other answer is a debt collector that plays hard. They always get their money. It cost 25% of the invoice, but they get results.

Shane

[Robert Lambie]

just quick reply here as im working in background 😕

at the bottom of all our invoices we have in bold, something like…. “All goods remain the property of fast signs (scotland) ltd untill payment is made in full”

.

[Vince Francis]

quote :

Shane, i’m no lawer, but I cant see how any court could convict you of stealing your own goods

You have no legal rights though if you supply 3rd party, not sure if you know that. If you do work for say, another sign company, they put your work on the wall (with all the terms and conditions), they go bust, you are not allowed to touch that sign. This is because the original contract was not with you.

So careful to all when dealing 3rd party.

As for taking bits off a sign, I know fitters who when not been paid have gone and taken the screws back out of the sign, and left it on the floor. They get round this by saying the company never supplied them, they did. Which then leads me to think that you are able to take away a sign you have made, thats not paid for. I have never heard of a fitter getting into trouble, but gets paid quick! lol

(chat.)

[Gssigns]

Hi

Get to know a solicitor who deals in debt collecting could cost you £100 initially, but they get results, I ve used them and it does not jeopardize the working relationship, as accounts and contracting are usually separate entities in large organisations!

paul

[Terry Manton]

Hi everyone – first time posting. Here’s my story!
Customer ordered a sign from us. ‘WAREHOUSE SHOP’ to be sign written on their fascia in white letters. This was back in ‘the old days’ when we painted everything by hand. When we went to paint the sign the weather was so bad we decided to try using vinyl lettering. We had heard wonderful things about it’s use and possibilities (this was around 1990) so contacted a local sign shop who happily cut the stuff for us. We went out, fitted it to the fascia and went to get paid. The invoice was £140. The guy in the shop gave me £100 and said to call in for the £40 balance next week. I did this as asked but he didn’t have the cash and asked for another week to pay the balance. This went on for 8 weeks. I eventually pointed out that he had not paid the bill in full and that some of the letters still belonged to me. I informed him that if I wasn’t paid by the following Tuesday at 10am I would be retrieving some of MY letters.
The day came and I arrived with my ladder and when it was clear that they had not taken me seriously I started to remove the letters. I took off the ‘W,E,H,O and U. This left the word ‘A.R.S.E. SHOP’ in 12″ high white letters and I headed back to the office. The next day we had a visit from Strathclydes boys in blue. The cops said that they were investigating an ‘act of vandalism’ in Motherwell and that they would like to speak to me about my involvement. I pointed out that there was no damage (thanks to that wonderful substrate called vinyl) and that £40 worth of letters belonged to me. I showed them my invoice and along the bottom it was printed that ‘all goods belonged to me until paid for in full’. The cops closed the book over and said….’this seems to be a civil matter between you and The A.r.s.e. Shop and left. I never heard any more from the cops about the incident.
The A.r.s.e Shop had to get another local company in to sort out my handiwork. Like the sign fitters in the posts above I ALWAYS take back part or all of my signs that have not been paid for.

[Simon Clayton]

The sign remains your property until paid for.. Whether it was third party or not. same as if you buy a second hand car which turns out to be on fiance the company can take it from you..
I did a sign for a shop fitter, window vinyls and panels, i was paid a deposit for the work (which covered the cost of the window graphics), but not the balance, anyway shop open i contacted the owner, he said he had paid the shop fitter, the shop fitter said he hadn’t etc etc…. I said the sign in the window has been paid for but the panels haven’t, if not paid within 7 day i would remove them, 7 days can still no payment, i spoke to citizen advice who said if the signs have not been paid for, they still belong to me, full stop. I contacted the police, who said it was a civil matter but would supply back up if trouble started ( i had been threaten by the owner) I went there took down the signs after a lot of aggro and threats, by the time i got home, the owner had phoned saying he would pay, fine i said i will fit next week once the cheque clears, he begged me to come back that night, which i did in the end but charged him an extra £300 fitting. Turns out the shop fitter was one of his relations..??

Simon

[Deleted User]

athenrye

That’s class 😀 Or should I say Arse 😀 😳

[Deleted User]

You’re kiddin’ me. 😮

I can’t say arse in an appreciative manner even? 😀

What about ar#e? (?) ‘cos that’s what I meant’ and it was crucial to the joke.

Now no-one will think I’m funny 😥

[RayRosher]

HI All
I’ve been reading this thread with some interest,
as a custom spray painter, who is now trying to branch out into the vinyl side of things,

All but two of the custom jobs I have done over the past six months have been cash on delivery,
The other two none payers simply didn’t get their motorcycles back, until they paid,
I also charged them storage and insurance costs, to cover the extra increase in my premeuim,

could someone expalin the pro forma type of invoice is this simply just another way of say COD, only in a legal contract type of way,
as im’m now going to add vinyl lettering to my business, any advice would help…..

[Carrie Brown]

Its an invoice for payment for goods/services prior to their despatch/fitting/collection …… basically its more or less payment at time of ordering scenario ….. you raise whats called a proforma invoice …. the only thing different about it is that it has the words … “this is not a vat invoice” & “Pro-forma Invoice” on it ….. you send it to your client so they know exactly what they are getting and so they know the full charges. Once you get cleared payment you then issue the vat invoice …. basically a duplicate of the proforma but without the “Proforma” or the “not vat invoice” bits on it. (a regualr invoice).

We issue these especially for our bigger customers … due to their ordering processes or having to raise order numbers and passing it through certain departments etc.

I hope Im making sense here? 😕

😀