Edge vs Wide format Inkjet

[J. Hulme]

Thermal is meant to last slightly longer and the only other thing is they constantly go on about the ability to print mirror silver and white, hardly a good reason for buying one now the inkjets are at an accessible price.

I nearly bought a brand new one a year ago for around £19K and may well have done, but the person who was taking my enquiry couldn’t be bothered sort the deal out, so I decided against the idea and now looking at the competition available, the depreciation, the consumables prices etc , maybe they did me a huge favour 😉

Price of edges now?
£5990 for edge 1
£8350 for edge 2 😉

[Robert Berwick]

Yeah I saw the price come through on a flyer – they say they are for factory refurbished units and only have a few at that price.

If the only difference is the life expectancy of the image then I can see why the market for the Edge might be diminishing.

Anyone else got any other views?

[J. Hulme]

I suppose you can use stuff printed with thermal immediately too
whereas with the other ink printed vinyl you have to wait a day or so , so it cures, does the coated vinyl for eco-inks have to wait too?
The thermal was good, but too expensive for us to do any work with, if the consumables were cheap(er) it would keep these machines alive.

There’s still plenty of life in them yet, maybe the manufacturers should give them a new lease of life and seriously drop those consumable prices.

[Simon Forrester]

Hi,

I find it really hard to compare these 2 types of machine, we have an edge and it is fantastic at small single/two colour stickers, just select the spot colour you need and job done.

Its process colour printing isnt great, as said it’s expensive and just doesnt have the resolution but for the odd graphic it will do.

So you should really decide what you want to do with the machine.Small labels the edge, big full colour graphics an inkjet.

The biggest thing i’ve got against inkjets is the whole colour profile/reproduction, RIP, image manipulation issues…life is to short to get involved, not to mention the fact the market is about to get VERY competitive with all these low cost printers for sale today. I’ll stick to short run simple stickers!!

Hope this helps
Simon

[David Evans]

Hello,

They need to be considered as two quite different tools, if you are just going to produce process colour work then the wide format inkjet will win as being easier to use and much better quality.

But thermal is a very versatile and robust system, you can print double sided and / or create your own perforation window film (with custom perforations) using a clear vinyl, which works out much cheaper than buying the perforated vinyl. You can print on to colour vinyl such as black and create real stunning graphics and work with spot channels and use things like simulated colour process.
Thermal is ready to use once its completed, defintly more durable than any of the solvent printers I have tested and consistent, you dont have issues of creating different ICC profiles for each media you use.
An area I have seen a lot of ink jet printers have trouble with is cast vinyl, but with thermal it doesnt make any difference.

With ink jet you dont need to baby sit the machine, if you stick with profiled medias it pretty much File-Print and the quality of these machines is very good on streight off the shelf vinyl. So there is defintly less learning curve and you get a considerable incease in width.

Lots of users have both and just see them as different tools for there job, if you are choosing one of these it really depends upon what sort of work you want to do and the market yoy are after.

Best regards

-David Evans
Cadlink Technology

[Rodney Gold]

I disagree that thermal and inkjets differ , they both do the same thing, they print colour on substrates but use different technologies.
With all due respect to edge users and suppliers , thermal machines are pretty much a technology that has been surpassed in many respects. Granted , you can print metallics with them and print white as well as them having better durability then some inks. However this comes at a huge cost and unless , like us , you have VERY specific uses for thermal , then you are limiting yourself in a very big way as a general jobbing shop. Thermal printers are NOT a geneal signmaking tool!!!!!!!
In the first place , durability is a matter of degree and is not the be all and end all of digital printing. ANY output that is to be used under harsh conditions has to be protected , whatever method you use. Golds and silver resins DO not have durability under UV so dont even think of using them long term!!!
Printing on dark substrates can only be accomplished by printing a white underlay , and despite claims , this is not always that great. Opacity of white depends on whose ribbons you use and is a mission as well as an extra process , It’s way cheaper to print all the colours on white with an inkjet , or for that matter , print the colours on gold or silver to emulate gold or silver text. The consumables for thermal printing are horrendously priced compared to inkjet.
So are its limitiations for the general signmaker. You are limited to width , you can never be price competitive , you cant print onto vellums , papers , banner , meshes , abs , styrene etc etc.
The thermal salesppl will mention all sorts of “specialty” media but unless the majority of what you do uses this , its totally irrelevant!!
You are locked in in some cases to specialised vinyls (sprocketed?) and cheap stuff DOES NOT print perfectly , to get good prints you have to use good stuff!!! The whole process is pretty slow as well.
For me to print full colour and cut is a single operation , not loading in multiple cartridges and taking output from one machine to another (my roland does this in a single process too , my thermal that is) Some thermal machines are cheap compared to inkjets , however consumable costs soon make very short work of initial low capital investment. Doing anything other than small decals entails multiple tiles on most thermals and horrendously costly for large areas , making one totally out the ball park in terms of pricing. Exceptionally fine detail cannot be accomplished on some thermals , and process colours are badly dithered and thus small almost continuous tone decals are not an option!!
So what if you cant match pantone colours , most customers want “POP” and not the nth degree of colour matching!!!
We had a demo of an edge (not the maxx or 600 dpi edge) before going inkjet and the suppliers actually declined to sell us one as they said (and demoed) that it could NOT attain the crispness and resolution we wanted on teeny gold/silver text on our small decals which need to be HIGH resolution!!
I’m sorry if I have rained on anyones parade , but those are the realities of it all
After saying all this , thermal has served us well and we have actually ressurected a thermal machine due to customers wanting us to repeat jobs that we have done before on thermal and cant match exactly with inkjet. (metallics on very dark vinyls)
Undoubtedly I will get flamed by edge or thermal devotees , but I got my flame proof underwear on and I have been there and done that and couldnt care!!!
It’s no concern of mine who buys what , I’m an end user and talk from that perspective. My advice is that unless you have a rather focussed and narrow market , avoid thermal printers altogether.
I apologise to those I have offended once again!!!

[Robert Berwick]

Wow, thanks for your input. Its really interesting to hear everyones views. I’m trying to gauge what is likely to be a better investment for a fledgling signmaker. We currently have a 1200mm Summa vinyl cutter, but obviously multi-colour graphics are really time consuming on cutters.

It would seem to me that there are more people “in favour” of owning an ink system over thermal so I think I’ll have a look at a couple of them.

Thanks again.

[Bob Gilliland]

This may be going off topic, however, I want to key in on the above statement.

quote :

I’m trying to gauge what is likely to be a better investment for a fledgling signmaker.

Side stepping the pro and con argument of either technology direction, perhaps there should be some self inventory being done. A thermal machine or an ink machine is just that. A machine. A device. A tool. The quality that is produced by any of these machines is directly controlled and influenced by a competent and skilled craftsperson, not the machine itself.

I have seen some really ugly looking digital output. I can say the same of rotary or carved dimensional signage. I can even say the same for hand painted signage. I have also seen some totally awesome painted signs, carved signs (machine and hand), and effective and aesthetically pleasing digital signage. The difference in all of the cases above; the skilled person behind the machine, not the machine or technology put into play.

While I applaud the desire to get some “real world” information on either technology to make an informed and educated purchase, I believe it to be only a small part of a much larger equation. Perhaps a “fledgling signmaker” should invest in some other avenue to increase their skillset before investing in some piece of technology machinery or device.

As an example, solid color theory and fundamentals will serve a person well whether dealing in paint, resin, or ink. If you get the latest technology and you “master” how to produce output from it, you have learned much less that can be ported to other applicable avenues irrelevant of the “flavor of the month” (read that as the “hot technology” at the moment).

Another example, in a different direction; learning how to identify true production and labor costs and pricing for profit. This has the potential for increasing the bottom line more so then any piece of thermal or ink device you may acquire. I’m not as familiar with the UK market place as I am with the USA, but many signamkers here would do well and be in a much better situation if they understood proper price structure more so then the difference between CMYK, CcMmYK, and CMYKOG.

If I could offer anything to a ”fledgling signmaker”, it would be to invest in the “self” before the “technology”.

[Robert Berwick]

Bob,

Thanks for that. I feel a bit like a naughty little school boy having been told off! 😳

My quandary is this: I have spied a hole in the local sign making market (i.e. there isn’t a signmaker located in the town of about 25,000 people and plenty of industry) and would like to fill it as soon as possible, before someone else does. So should I spend time getting to grips with theory before taking the plunge or whilst in the progress of also learning the technology?

What suggestions can you give me for getting some solid theory under my belt?

Your point about understanding true labour and production costs, I couldn’t agree more, and wouldn’t even consider a start up business without real investigation and ongoing monitoring of these and many other facets of the business. This line of thought comes from a BA(Hons) in business studies and 11 years experience in a £4M turnover manufacturing company.

Thanks again for your views.

Robert

[Rodney Gold]

If I were investing that type money , I would rather get a laser cutter/engraver
It can generate huge profits and is a lot easier to use than a digital printer. Digital printing is way overtraded IMHO

[Simon Forrester]

I agree with Rodney on this one.

I always perfer to do work on our engravers and laser engravers have come down in price a lot recently, so much so i might even consider one myself(i’m a rotary man).

The ability to cut acrylic in house will be much more usefull for everyday signage.

Simon

[Freddy.Tait]

hi list
can anyone tell me their views on
laser marking, set up, cost etc,type of machine they think
any prices info for startup, all info
would be welcome

hope this finds you all well
from freddy in sunny scarborough