Edge registration problems – tight foil?

[Dave Standen]

Hi Colin
Are we talking about a problem you’re actually experiencing?
You should not find a problem just because you’re near the end of the foil in a cartridge of any make. In particular – Original cartridges and modified original cartridges (from PrintOne) are the same and should give no trouble at all.
What’s the problem you’ve experienced?

Static Cling:
This has always been a ‘special’ for the EDGE. You must select Static Cling in your Materials Menu (this lowers print head temp.) and potentially reduce Print Head Intensity (temp) for good results. Static cling – as you know – is a soft material compared to vinyl which can be said to be ‘hard’
The problems with static cling can also vary Dependant on the manufacturer, of both Static Cling and the foil being used, but the rules of application are the same.

Regards
Dave Standen

[Robert Lambie]

hi dave
good to see you back on boards mate… 😉 i was thinking for a minute that you just decided to stay in south africa :lol1: :lol1:
on that… i saw in the mags recently a sign maker won your recent contest for a holiday in south africa? bet they were well chuffed? 😉

[Martin Armitage]

That was us, yep well chuffed

[Andy Gorman]

It is a fact that cartridges containing largely different amounts of foil remaining will misregister. When I asked spandex about this once, their answer was to always use foils with the same amount remaining. Very helpful! I never found an answer to this problem, mostly annoying!

[Dave Standen]

Hi Folks, Hi Rob
I’ve been back around for a couple of months! I’ve even sent emails to you! (You didn’t reply) As usual you’re as busy as is humanly possible! And yes! it wasn’t a hoax – someone has actually won the Holiday in South Africa!
Hi Martin….. THE WINNERS
Carol’s coming down to see you in a couple of days to put you all in the picture for the prize. Congratulations!
Hi BiG G
Your absolutely right with regard to Process Colours and uneven foil remaining amounts. I asked Colin what he’s actually experienced and your experience is probably the same as his. If there is approx the same amount of foil remaining in a cartridge set – there’s no problem. If there’s a large difference there is a problem.

Quick Explanation – Worse case conditions. If you had a new 91M refill Black working with a virtually used up set of CMY. … The outside circumference of a new 91M refill is approx 122mm. Last 10Metres on a refill circumference could be 110 – 10 to 12mm out of reg, but that’s just to demonstrate the explanation. The EDGE is not able to vary speed of feed to compensate. So the rule is – similar sized foil remaining!

So – there is no answer other than to use approx same diam foil remaining for accurate CMYK printing. The same really applies to Spot Printing – but registration is more forgiving thankfully!

Regards. Dave Standen

[Robert Lambie]

hi dave… are you sending to my personal account?
ill have to check my outlook when i get home, but im 100% i havent got any mate…

martin… well done mate.. great stuff. 😛

[Colin Crow]

Hi Dave

Thanks for coming back on this.

Two problems, same cure. I have been doing a large cling job (gerber white supplied as deal + print one mirror gold) and all was well for the first 40 metres and then the cling kept getting jammed in the edge on the first white print. All rucked up around the sprockets. Did everything like cleaning heads, sprockets etc but wasted total 10 metres material with same problem. Changed cling to new roll same problem. Changed cartridge (gerber) and bingo! no problems at all until… 10 metres from end of cartridge same problems. Swapped again and fine again. Mirror gold worked perfectly right up until it ran out.

Now I have 2 cartridges with 8+ metres on so I try another normal vinyl job with the white and notice that registration is worse than normal. If this is normal it is going to be a pain keeping cartridges of differing lengths. Is it just the last 10 metres that causes the problem? if so it will definitely be worth buying the 91m rolls.

Thanks

Colin

[Vale 46]

A few years ago I noticed this problem with printing CMYK and the reg marks lining up, so I now deselect the target print from all bar one of the cartridges (normally cyan). You then don’t have an issued with which crosshair to line up. To do this from Omega, just go into print options in the gspplot and click on any colour you dont want the target printing. You will see the T just to the right of the colour description dissapears.

Also while in this screen you have a targets button. I always found that lower left was my favoured choice, because in most cases the cutter returns to the same line as it starts, so you only have to move the eyepiece up and down. You also don’t need to lean as far over the machine!

[Martin Armitage]

I have always found static cling to be very tempremental it will print fine one day and the next will give nothing but problems. The vinyl selection really does need to be set to “static cling” and i have also heard that some edge users will put application tape around the plastic bail arm squeegees to reduce the drag on the vinyl. I would also print in smaller lengths at a time 5 – 10 mts. With the plotter there is another chance of the cling rucking up, and would normally feed the sheet in and out both sides to stop it binding.
The edge does have a problem with registration especially over long lengths and more noticable the more colours you use (especially on smaller jobs), I assume that you are using choke/spread and bleed and possibly overprint within your jobs.
My experience is that it doesn’t make that much difference how much foil is left on each cartridge, the edge has a problem with registration anyway – use smaller lengths, less colours if possible and the tools supplied within your software

[Dave Standen]

Hi Folks.
Martin knows what he’s talking about!
My knowledge is perhaps wide spread but very general. Experienced operators like Martin become intimately familiar with the EDGE by their experience – and that counts more than my general basic knowledge!

Hi Colin
What you’re describing could be that you need to lower your Print Head intensity – WHY ? – Sounds like the foil is welding TOO WELL to the Static Cling and having trouble being stripped off. That may cause the Static Cling to be lifted off the sprockets as the used foil is attempted to be dragged off the graphic and spooled in the cartridge. Once the media is lifted off the sprockets jobs finished!
Maybe the strip angle on a fuller refill becomes critical at 10Metre?
Let us know what happens.

Hi Rob
I’ve sent a 2nd message via the boards – did you get it?
Regards Dave

[Colin Crow]

Thanks to all

I have been doing my homework and using all the settings correctly, especially the static cling selection and been printing in only 5 metres at a time. I didn’t adjust the intensity, but you are probably correct there and it’s given me somthing else to try for the next job. The angle of the foil strip seems feasible, as my time spent crouching on the floor trying to see what was happening showed that the problem was occuring when the print was at it’s widest, meaning that the amount of “pull” was greatest and thus the sprockets gave up.

One other quick question from a novice – why do the dancer bars and head get clogged with resin when these don’t actually come into direct contact with the resin side of the foil. Is it due to migration of the resin when it is in contact with the top surface of the carrier on the roll?

Colin

[Andy Gorman]

I don’t know what make of foils you are using, but I did experience the powdery residue build up on the head. I think it occurred more with the Print One foils than the Gerber ones. Never caused a problem because I was always very thorough with the cleaning of the head. One thing I did notice was that with certain vinyls and foil combinations, the foil tended to stick and snap. For example, this happened a lot with Blue GCT-627 (I think) and any metallic vinyl. I was told that it was something to do with the spread of heat (?) By printing shorter runs this problem was solved, as, I suppose, less heat build up was occurring.

[Colin Crow]

I did wonder if heat build up was a problem. When the cling first stuck I rested the edge for 1/2 an hour and it worked a little better but still stuck again shortly after and continued to do so until I changed the cartridge. I was running 5M at a time until I get more confidence.

Another thing I have noticed is that irrespective of how many colours I print the first colour always starts slightly before the remaining colours. I have tried taking the tension off the roll etc but this is consistent over the whole print run.

I understand that omega has some adjustments that can be made for both printing and cutting but as I’m using signlab thats not a lot of help!

I am not knocking the system though – its already earned me a chunky lucrative job that I would have had to turn away otherwise.

Colin

[Martin Armitage]

Does Signlab not have the same sort of adjustments as Omega? If not you will always have a problem with registration, I have never used signlab, but realise that it does come as part of an edge package so the same sort of tools must be there somewhere!

[Bob Gilliland]

Martin,

At this time, there is no Edge/plot calibration process available inside SignLab like Graphics Advantage and Omega offer. This may change at some point in the future.

Colin,

As Dave mentions further above, Static Cling is one of the softness, most pliable surfaces the edge attempts to print on. Not only is the head temperature lowered, but the clamping pressure is adjusted as well. For those that have an Edge2, correctly setting materials (substrate and foil)to be used is much more crucial then those that use an Edge (all three models).

I’m not one to always beat the Gerber drum through and through, however, with my own experience and talking to and working with various other Edge owners, the amount of wasted time and materials when using non Gerber cling and foils is noticeably higher. Don’t mean to imply that 100% Gerber materials will always be trouble free, but am willing to say expressed as a percentage, waste factor is greatly reduced.

[Bob Gilliland]

Martin,

At this time, there is no Edge/plot calibration process available inside SignLab like Graphics Advantage and Omega offer. This may change at some point in the future.

Colin,

As Dave mentions further above, Static Cling is one of the softness, most pliable surfaces the edge attempts to print on. Not only is the head temperature lowered, but the clamping pressure is adjusted as well. For those that have an Edge2, correctly setting materials (substrate and foil)to be used is much more crucial then those that use an Edge (all three models).

I’m not one to always beat the Gerber drum through and through, however, with my own experience and talking to and working with various other Edge owners, the amount of wasted time and materials when using non Gerber cling and foils is noticeably higher. Don’t mean to imply that 100% Gerber materials will always be trouble free, but am willing to say expressed as a percentage, waste factor is greatly reduced.

[Colin Crow]

Martin,

I have asked cadlink about this and this feature is due in later revision as is the facility to align the skew on the cutter. I am learning to love some of the strengths of signlab but do think these are essential if they are going to sell it as part of an edge package. I am starting to worry that I will need these features to really make the edge work properly.

Bob,

Ironically, the cling and white foil were both supplied by spandex (who I believe now own Gerber) and it was this that was giving the problem. The only non-gerber product, the mirror gold foil (like gold medal -which I am told is a no-no on cling) worked faultlessly throughout. To Spandex’s credit they did offer to look into the problem for me but time didn’t allow and I like a challenge anyway!

This forum is a brilliant way to talk to people who know what they talking about.

Colin

[Dave Standen]

Hi Colin
Your ear must be stuck to the groud! Where did you pick the info re Spandex owning Gerber?
Regards Dave

[Colin Crow]

Hi Dave

Curious this, I can’t remember who put that idea into my head and I can’t find any news to back up such a thing, however looking at the numbers it wouldn’t surprise me to see some sort of shake up soon. Their plan to move away from premium products to more middle market doesn’t seem to be producing the returns they need to satisfy their huge debt.

Either way, just heard I have another nice job confirmed as a result of the client being pleased with the mirror gold foil on the cling!

Colin