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Do you sit down with a client to design?
Do you allow your customers to sit down with you when working on a design?
I just wonderd what others do.
For me it’s strictly a no no. I usually find they want to experiment with every font and colour and go through endless permutations before finally making a choice.
If you don’t, how do you politely tell them without causing offence 😕
Interested to hear what others do.
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54 Replies
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I already explained this on another topic, so I won’t repeat myself.
But in short, no.
I don’t even have my computer in plain sight anymore.
I like to keep some things a mystery.
😉
Love….Jill -
Only if I have already done a design, and then we go the full circle of colour changes and font choices just to prove to the customer you were right the first time. 🙄
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I’m not the most diplomatic of persons and was hoping for some tips on gently persuading someone it was not a good idea. My usual method is to say "no chance" but this can cause offence with some of the more sensitive souls I have to deal with 😕
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Just say (for example your client is a plumber) "Do you mind if I come and watch you work all day? I promise to tell you if you set the pipe crooked and not to wince when you cross-thread anything."
I have never really had to explain to a client why I don’t want them hovering. They just think my computer makes the stuff anyway.
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My client does spray tanning – she might think I’m some sort of a perv if I ask to watch her at work 😕
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never ever spend time showing client layouts, takes up too much valuable making money time 😀 i just say i will e-mail the client over a layout and let them get back to me, then discuss things further 😀
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Once a design is done we show the client because we don’t print or send they have to come and see.
I say before we start everything you think may look better – believe me we have tried it, and this is what works best.
They still want to experiment I’m thinking of saying soon ok if the end design doesnt change ie we were right you pay for the time if you change it no extra charge. 99.9 of the time we go as said in a full circle and back to yes i see what you mean. Why everyone thinks there are a designer is beyond me.
I still feel this is the best way as you get approval there and then. Letting customers go away and think is a big mistake.
Nigel
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I have designed in front of client many times but no more.
I think they often get a poor design if they are watching as it doesn’t let me play and discard the crap ideas – they usually see something they like in the design process and insist on having it.
ie I would normally start with vehicle outline and then just type out all the text etc in Arial and rough size before I start playing with font design etc its amazing how many people want you to stop at that point.
Some would say happy days take the money and run but you have got to have pride in your work and i would hate my clients to have arial roughly applied.
So now clients don’t even see the computer and I say I will give this to the designer to produce a design – nobody has ever questioned why I dont do the design 😀
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I do, I think it important that the client has some input as to what they need, I think it quite condescending to treat clients as idiots.
If I wanted a kitchen designed, i would expect the supplier to ask and actively translate my needs to the end product, and it would be more efficient to do that in my presence, than submit designs that had no relevance to what I wanted.God, sign makers can be so self centered 😀
If the client only wants to spend, or can only afford a small budget,
do you insist on doing a "special design" rather than a simple layout, that they are happy with?Peter
PS
Phil,
you should give all your prospective clients a copy of your book,
so they would understand what it is all about before waisting your time 😀 -
quote Peter Normington:Phil,
you should give all your prospective clients a copy of your book,
so they would understand what it is all about before waisting your time 😀They’ll have to buy it – I’m not giving it away :lol1: :lol1:
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board rules?
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I was merely responding to your reply and providing a link for reference, I didn’t introduce the subject myself 😕
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Anyway – I think it’s an important topic.
I have been caught out before and spent too much time while a prospective customer has played with my time and computer going through endless permutations. I’m not being condescending – I do listen to what the customer wants. I just don’t want to spend endless afternoons re-inventing the wheel.
We are the experts (or should be) so we should advise and guide our customers into making a choice that benefits them. It’s not being condescending – it’s being realistic. They often don’t know what’s best.
But I’m genuinely interested to know what others do and I take your comments on board peter 😀
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quote Phill:I was merely responding to your reply and providing a link for reference, I didn’t introduce the subject myself 😕
Whatever,
if you don’t sit down with your clients, and advise them the best way forward, and within their budget and yours, you are not going to maximise your earnings, just my opinion, though…
And as said in a similar topic, I will give a prospective client upto 30 minutes time, so I can evaluate them, and them me, they will still pay me for my time as it is added to the job cost, it just makes the client feel they are getting what they want, the customer pays the bills, they are what we make our living from, give them what they want, and charge accordingly
Peter
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I do and I don’t.
If I have a ‘spare’ 20mins – as basically that’s all they get for ‘free’ then I’ll immediately sit them down and do as a bare minimum a concept. Say 90% of the time this more than suffices and at least i won’t have to come up with 2 or 3 designs…and THEN have them tweak it later. TBH, if I can’t get a design done (for any job under £500) in that sort of time scale i’m wasting my time….time is money and all that…
…and I’m not talking block ‘Heavy Bold’ in black stretch to fit…I mean proper balance designs – and explaining all the while WHY I’m laying it out as I do it….sure you’ll get people wanting you to do dumb stuff…most of us work on PC’s…it’s got some marvelous functions called UNDO and DUPLICATE – what’s the big deal about 1. do it right 2. show them their idea….compare…simples.
Just simply establishing for example for a vehicle:
Favourite colours, fancy or plain font, coverage, budget and what is the essential details they MUST have on it can save revisions later….why design a £700 masterpiece when all they want / have to spend is £200.
Clinching the deal when they are in the room – and getting commitment…and a deposit stops them trawling round another 3 companies. By sitting down with them you don’t need to pander to them – advise, advise, advise – tell them straight WHY their brainwave ideas won’t work…and show them live.
Had a chap in yesterday who called me up for a quote (gave him a ballpark). 15mins later he turned up on the off chance i could let him see some of my designs…went one better. Took photos of his van…bluetoothed them to the PC as I walked up stairs…asked a couple of the questions to establish the parameters…first go, superimposed…job done.
Booked in to be fitted next week ‘while he goes shopping’.
OK this can be time down the drain if ‘somebody has a vision’ of what they want and it just won’t work – or want to see 100 fonts or every colour combination possible…these special cases get the obligatory 10 mins…and told I’ll email them a couple of ideas / call when I have something.
i have and will tell customers to "go look at istock and tell me the codes", "here’s the book – pick a font".
If I really am stuck for time – I may well spend 5-6 mins getting their brief – and still 20-30 mins doing a couple of designs later…only to have one or more chucked away. Time saving no…
it’s OUR job to sell a design including some one-on-one service. How much more please are they that they ‘feel’ like they had a valuable input and saw it come to life in front of their eyes…and you can blow them away with your software skills rather than it all being some mystical black art behind closed doors.
Yeh, sit them down and get it right the first time…the only time.
Dave
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I actually do talk to my clients both by phone and face to face to get a feel for style, fonts, colors.
I am not snobbish, but I want people to trust me.
After all, I am the one who has been 24 years in the trade.When I first got a computer I used to design for everyone who came to my shop, until I realized what a waste of time it was. I once spent TWO HOURS discussing mailbox lettering with an elderly lady, showing examples, colors, fonts…
She didn’t buy a thing.
It was a $25 job.
That’s when the lightbulb went off for me! -
Jill
I dont give more than 2 minutes to people who want a 5 quid sticker, that would be established in the first 30 seconds of the initial enquiry,
I always ask the relative questions before committing my time, and for the "boy racers" tell them my minimum charge before they get through the door.x
Peter
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I notice I never got any kisses (puppy-eyes)
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Never 🙂
We’ve built barriers between clients and the designer. Always goes through a middle man. It shows it actually costs money and takes time. It also lengthens the time between proofs so puts pressure on the client to make their mind up.
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I agree that you should listen to the client and I will often sketch out by hand in front of the client. My point was that they will generally get a better design if I am allowed the extra little time and without them jumping in every 5 mins to have their design input. They dont necessarily pay any more.
Colin
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I haven’t read everything on this topic so apologies if this is already said.
You were asking for advice to get out of designing infront of clients. My way of doing this is to tell them ‘it’s better option to let us get an initial design to you to gauge what your looking for and then we can make changes until you are happy’…. something along those lines, no offence but makes it clear. I also always move away from my machine when dealing with clients so I’m not tempted to show any examples or explain proportions and things
This generally means changes are done via email and saves back seat designers
G
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"Back Seat Designers" hahaha I love that.
I will, on occasion, grab a pencil and paper and mock out a thumbnail when talking to a client.
It always seems to impress them that I can draw letters.
🙄
The sketch via email route (after deposit) is a really efficient and painless way to deal with designing, as long as you watermark everything and send a low-rez pic. -
I’ve noticed that those against ‘back seat designers’ are all up for ‘revisions later’ / ’email revisions until you are happy’.
Hang on – if the whole point is to save time & money….what are you playing at.
Surely getting it right (if you have time to do it)…the first time – even if they are there for 20-30 minutes for a pain of a customer saves time in the long run.
Yes there will be times when a complex design will take maybe an hour and a half….no way I’m doing that with them next to me – but even as a minimum roughing out the concept on screen / showing or directing them your portfolio online builds confidence in your abilities – not diminish them.
I’ve NEVER lost a job for a client that i designed the job it in front of them. The deal is struck…they are happy…I get paid.
What IS the hassle for a customer is being told, "Now take a hike, I’ll call you if and when i can be bothered to do something for you as I’m the important one here – no, I don’t really care what you want – you’ll take what I offer, like it or lump it….well I’ll do revisions – but I’ll charge you extra – oh, and if you try to steal my ideas I’ll sue you.
C’mon people – we are in a service orientated market. I get quite a few people whinging that several reputable companies in the local area "don’t seem interested / took far too long to call back / got shirty when the customer eventually went elsewhere / didn’t listen to what they wanted".
By giving them impeccable service right from the design stage – even just a rough one (with a "I’ve only got about ten minutes just now to get something started for you – they are on the hook…it’s too much hard work to go elsewhere and be told: "I’ll do it when I’m good and ready."
There have been several analogies about tradesmen being watched while they work.
No I won’t watch my bathroom fitter / plumber with his hand down the u-bend….but I will EXPECT to be consulted on and totally involved in: What I want, where I want it, how much I want to spend, styles etc.
The last thing ‘we’ need is a yellow pages rep. attitude. (When they start ‘designing’)
"What are you moaning about – all of the information you wanted is there…what do you mean, it looks bad, is not what you expected, wanted or agreed to…how much? Oh a bargain at only twice what my original estimate was…."But whatever works for your particular area…I know if I offer something a bit special service-wise…with live designs it pays dividends immediately.
Dave
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Got to agree Dave, I was trying to find the words that you so eloquently put.
Yes it does depend on your own situation, and a design is time, but most of my customers just want one or two vans doing, I find it quicker to do the design as they imput their info, rather than taking notes for 20 minutes, then still having to to a design for them to ask if they can have changes,
Its my preferred way of working, and for me also, I usually get the job,
if you are doing a layout later, so may be all the other local signmakers,I like to do things in real time, if I have to get back to someone with a design, I will often put that on the back burner, and carry on with more urgent priority’s. Strike while the iron is hot.
Peter
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quote David Rogers:….sure you’ll get people wanting you to do dumb stuff…
Which is why I’m opposed to doing it – So how do you know they’re going to be as compliant as you described in your most recent post. In reality – the ones that ask to sit down and design with you are the ones that are likely to be a pain. They think they know better and want to see everything for themselves before accepting your experience of what does and doesn’t work.
quote David Rogers:OK this can be time down the drain if ‘somebody has a vision’ of what they want and it just won’t work – or want to see 100 fonts or every colour combination possible…I couldn’t agree more – That’s exactly my concern
quote Peter Normington:I like to do things in real time, if I have to get back to someone with a design, I will often put that on the back burner, and carry on with more urgent priority’s. Strike while the iron is hot.
PeterMy problem is quite the opposite. I’m normally in the middle of some important job when a new enquiry calls in unannounced. I don’t have the time there and then to sit down with them and complete a design and quote. So I normally gather the information and get back to them at a later date with my quote and (if they’ve paid a deposit) design.
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Phill you should never be to busy for customers, if I get a caller, he/she is dealt with immediately,
You would be the first to complain if you went into shop and they told you they were to busy to serve you, but they will give you a call when they have more time!
Example:-
If I ask for a quote say for built up letters, I dont expect to wait a day and a half, I need it now, if not, I will call another company,
So I dont see why it is any different for our customers?I am talking about the majority of bread and butter jobs, I can do a layout in the same time it takes to take the relevant details, thats the way I do it, and it works for me.
Peter
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quote Phill:In reality – the ones that ask to sit down and design with you are the ones that are likely to be a pain.That’s the nub of it I find. And they are the ones I won’t let near me.
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Harry
You have a talent that people will queue up for,
I am just a "signmaker," not an artist, and in the real world, I just do my best to convince the customer I deserve their hard earned, for a reasonable job,
Only today I had a caller wanting a brass plague memorial plate, I could have said, "sorry I dont do them, goodbye" but instead helped the lady to find a source, it turned out that one of my regular customers had sent her round, so the feed back to them was well worth the 10 minutes I spent, helping.Peter
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Peter, I spend countless hours like you helping, informing and taking info from clients. It’s part and parcel of the service industry. What irks me is when somebody confuses their ‘likes’ with good design. As Phill says, the problem client is the one who doesn’t know ‘what they don’t know’ and briefs you to design something for them. They think that ‘anybody can do that’….a huge problem in both art and design. They don’t understand that my or your first draft is arrived at through years of experience or training, that’s the situation I avoid at all costs. I doff my hat to those who know more and are more talented than me,(and there are plenty) 😀 but I take steps to avoid the know it all. 😀
In saying that I have been fortunate to have had a couple of clients who have exceptional untrained eyes. -
I don’t think the sit down option works…….
On nice jobs send them quick fire changes as .pdfs to gain trust and get the job……doesn’t always work though 😕 😀
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quote Peter Normington:Phill you should never be to busy for customers, if I get a caller, he/she is dealt with immediately,
Of course Peter – I do . But I also have an obligation to meet my existing commitments and for example finish a van that a customer is expecting to get back the same day.
If I get an enquiry this is dealt with as efficiently as possible. But in all honestly its a rare occurence that I could sit down with a fresh enquiry and design a layout there and then.
I think you and David are trying to paint a picture that does not exist in the real world – simply for the sake of producing a counter argument.
Sometimes I think that if I was to say black you would say white, and if I said white you would say black 😕
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I will park the car in the backyard, will not take calls to avoid being distracted when I’m busy. But I tell anyone ‘complaining’ that the job in the workshop is the important thing. I have numerous good clients who understand and know that….will leave me a message and know that I will get back to them as soon as I am able. Frankly, new customers need to develop a relationship with me just as much as I have to with them.
There is nothing in your phone contract that says ‘you have to answer it’! 😀 -
I’ve not read all the posts…It’s late and i can’t be @arsed. Peter I think your point about going to the shop and being told you can’t be served now you’ll have to come back is a bit of the mark. That’s a totally different ball game mate. The sign game’s very different from a visit to Asda.
I sit the many clients down and tweek designs in front of them. It saves time. But that’s not like giving them the goods there and then. I call it customer service and it also lets the client see just what goes into the job and gives them a better understanding. It can and does also have the opposite effect as well. If you sit them down once they’ll expect it everytime and at short notice. Realistically this is something I’m trying to do less of because at the moment things have got very busy and yes it does screw up your time and start to put you behind. Sorry mate but I have to agree with Phill…….Sometimes you do argue black is white when really there is no need to. That’s not saying though you’re not entitled to your opinion mate. -
quote Phill:…I think you and David are trying to paint a picture that does not exist in the real world – simply for the sake of producing a counter argument.
Sometimes I think that if I was to say black you would say white, and if I said white you would say black 😕
No, sorry. And i’m actually a little offended that you’d accuse me essentially of lying to get a laugh / reaction. I DO take time out unless I’m in a major rush to meet a deadline – or have a site visit at a specific time to get to.
You asked what others do – this is what I do – if you thought we all did the same as you, or subscribed to your model – why ask the question!! 😉In MOST cases i will do a live design if somebody has taken the time out of their day to seek ME out – even if just concept. And i stick to my 15-20mins. If it can’t be sorted in that time – they are told I’ll email / contact them when i’ve got something final. But by them – it’s normally so far ahead – the time spent there is saved later and then some….at least the major parameters are already set in stone.
I can type in the details they want just as fast as I can write them down, I can click on a colour faster than I can write the colour down. I can establish within minutes what they want rather than a pointless back & forth by email making revisions. I can show them a layout or colour combo quicker than I can describe what I ‘might send them’…you get the point.
No being disrespectful, but maybe i just work the design side faster, can direct / guide my customers by advising & showing them there & then at a higher pace than you may think is normal.
If they agree to something in the shop – there’s no getting opinions from 10 mates, the kids in the street or the pet budgie when they receive your email designs…and make a million revisions.
If we are talking about MAKING MONEY and CUSTOMER SERVICE – then taking time out for a valuable (ready to spend) customer (as Peter said) – even if it’s putting you under extra and unwanted pressure blows them away…and you will get the job. Not because you are the best designer or the cheapest quote…but because you gave them what they wanted…it sorted NOW.
Now I’m not saying EVERY customer gets this treatment, some you can sum up in 2 minutes that they just want to see every combination possible (low value jobs every time) and they are invariably not business people themselves. Brush off – that’s what you do. Tell them straight – as usually they are just making enquiries and miles away from an actual purchase – "if you see a style you like email me it over / I can’t spend much time with you right now as i have to get this (whatever) done, but I’ll take you contact details & call you later."
Of course I do the ‘get back to you with something later’ too – I can’t drop everything all of the time and get the most basic of details…I maybe have a 75-85% conversion rate on those…because they went elsewhere after coming to see ‘a sign company’ which could have been avoided for the sake of a few minutes that would have left them feeling confident that it was all taken care of. That’s life though – risk being 20mins late finishing the job you are on…or losing the next one. I think you know where I stand…
Or – a larger job – eg. menu box. No way should you drop everything to start typing it up. Or a part wrap design….these things take much more than a courteous amount of time to even get underway.
I still feel that it has helped my customer relationships no end by being willing to do live designs – but horses for courses.
I’m hardly a newbie at this and know it works for me and my business model…and I prefer the interaction.
Dave
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quote David Rogers:What IS the hassle for a customer is being told, “Now take a hike, I’ll call you if and when i can be bothered to do something for you as I’m the important one here – no, I don’t really care what you want – you’ll take what I offer, like it or lump it….well I’ll do revisions – but I’ll charge you extra – oh, and if you try to steal my ideas I’ll sue you.
Nowhere did I or any one else in response to this thread suggest that we would treat a customer like this. This is one example of what I mean by "painting a picture that doesn’t exist simply to provide a counter argument". And I was probably as hurt by this comment as you were by mine (puppy-eyes) :lol1: :lol1:
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quote :No being disrespectful, but maybe i just work the design side faster, can direct / guide my customers by advising & showing them there & then at a higher pace than you may think is normal.
that was one of my downfalls, the faster you go the cheaper the client wants the job 😀
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:lol1: :lol1: Alright Phil…yeh, that was a bit facetious and so OTT that it was meant tongue in cheek…and I hoped that it would be seen that way! :lol1: :lol1:
One all…we’re even now 😛
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..fair ennuf …but I’m still worrying what Peter’s counter strike will be 😕 :lol1: :lol1:
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quote Phill:..fair ennuf …but I’m still worrying what Peter’s counter strike will be 😕 :lol1: :lol1:
It’s gone all quiet now. This is better than Jeremy Kyle. 😀 😀 😉
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customers are banned from our design room, we however do have a computer in the reception or meeting rooms, but it doesnt get used that much.
The reception is stood up mainly and has a small table and chairs but it’s designed to stop the customers getting too comfortable. lol -
If you visited their place of business you might be greeted by…
‘SALESMEN – BY APPOINTMENT ONLY"
Maybe we need to counter that with this….
:lol1:
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quote Peter Normington:I do, I think it important that the client has some input as to what they need, I think it quite condescending to treat clients as idiots.
If I wanted a kitchen designed, i would expect the supplier to ask and actively translate my needs to the end product, and it would be more efficient to do that in my presence, than submit designs that had no relevance to what I wanted.God, sign makers can be so self centered 😀
If the client only wants to spend, or can only afford a small budget,
do you insist on doing a “special design” rather than a simple layout, that they are happy with?Peter
PS
Phil,
you should give all your prospective clients a copy of your book,
so they would understand what it is all about before waisting your time 😀I agree with you Peter.
I’ve done it many times, on a few occasions it’s been an hour wasted but, on the whole, i find it works quite well, the customer gets some input and, if you need to redraw a logo, they can actually see what goes into doing it, even though i’ll only do a re-draw which still needs work, it’s surprising how many will be pretty amazed at how it all works and how much you have to do in order to make their layout work.
they often get bored and go anyways, leaving me to it. If i don’t want the customer here i’ll to a very rough layout until they like the ‘general idea’ and then tell them i have other work to do and will fine tune the design / layouts / colours later for them.
dare i say it…….? a couple of my customers have actually given me some very good idea’s while playing with their layout! one or two have driven me mad with constant alterations but, i find they’re usually the customer who comes back for everything.. cards, leterheads, shirts, boards, banners etc, once they know you’re prepared to listen, go a little further for them than bloggs down the road and, you’ll do it how they want, you’ve got them for good.
of course, 50% of my customers never set foot in my workshop, of those that do maybe 1 in ten will hang a bout to see how it’s done.
Hugh
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quote Hugh Potter:of course, 50% of my customers never set foot in my workshop, of those that do maybe 1 in ten will hang a bout to see how it’s done.
Hugh
To be honest Hugh – I can’t blame most of them for not wanting to set foot in your workshop. Of the 1 in 10 that do – I suspect it not just your designing expertise that they’re interested in 😕
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oh dear, the secret’s out now, times are tough mate, what can i say?
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Is that the guy who owns Stick it up signs.com?
(That’s not really you is it Hugh?)
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quote Karl Williams:Is that the guy who owns Stick it up signs.com?
(That’s not really you is it Hugh?)
in another life mate! do you not remember the ‘uksg charity calendar’ thread of a couple of years back? do a search, there’s many pics of various members, bet many are regretting it now (as i am!), talk about a skeleton in one’s cupboard!
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You mean this one Hugh?
https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.p … 19&start=0
https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.p … 46&start=0
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But Hugh, that’s not sitting down with a customer…you are standing! :lol1:
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quote Jillbeans:But Hugh, that’s not sitting down with a customer…you are standing! :lol1:
I’d say! :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:
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quote Jillbeans:But Hugh, that’s not sitting down with a customer…you are standing! :lol1:
I would like to think that one would require slightly more vinyl to hide one’s modesty if I were standing! 😳
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quote Hugh Potter:quote Jillbeans:But Hugh, that’s not sitting down with a customer…you are standing! :lol1:
I would like to think that one would require slightly more vinyl to hide one’s modesty if I were standing! 😳
380mm sprocketed! 😉
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Well, what I’ve learned here is that we all have our own procedures, which can vary from minute to minute, depending on how busy we are, what the local competition does, how much we need the work, whether we like the look of the customer, and a myriad of other factors.
And that’s how it should be. 😀
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quote John Childs:Well, what I’ve learned here is that we all have our own procedures, which can vary from minute to minute, depending on how busy we are, what the local competition does, how much we need the work, whether we like the look of the customer, and a myriad of other factors.
And that’s how it should be. 😀
What’s that got to do with what Hugh gets up to in his shed :lol1: :lol1:
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Like John’s said "that’s how it should be!"
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