Do you do artworks before OR after taking deposits?

[John Childs]

Perhaps you might regard this as two jobs.

1. Design. Make it plain that he is going to have to pay for design, one way or another. He can have no objection to this as he would have to pay if he went to a pure design agency and, at this stage, he is not required to place an order for the sign.

2. Manufacture. If he touts around your design at least you will be able to compete on a level playing field pricewise with your competitors and if the worst does come to the worst and you don’t win it at least you will have been paid for what design work you have done.

It IS difficult and I wish you luck.

Regards – John

PS. Whilst I am here I would like to take issue with your signature.

France does not have the tastiest food. Try Belgium.
France does not have the most delicious women. Try Scandinavia.
The wine point I will accept.

😀

[Martin C]

This one seems to crop up on a regular basis!

I pay good money for a couple of ads in Yellow Pages, a local magazine and promoting my website…..all to gain new customers and get orders.

Perhaps it’s because I’m relatively new to the Sign game but at the moment I see design as part of what I do to get customers. I’ve just won a job without a reduction in price against an expensive local franchise purely and simply because my design was better.

However, don’t think that because you have produced the latest work of art that you can stop selling. Tie em down and get them committed. Have your story to tell them as to why you’ve done certain things and how you visualise the sign impacting on their customers. Customers need re-assurance…bless em!

Here’s something that I do all the time and it works. Put something in the sign that is so glaringly out of proportion or even wrong. 9 times out of ten they will say, I don’t want that and will quickly tell you what they do want. At which point my order pad flips open! Bingo…….. (:) (:) (:)

[jon vital]

We have a copyright notice on our visuals that basically says a fee will be charged if they get another company to do the job from our artwork.

[signworks.se]

I’m with Martin on this one. 😉
Cheers
Danny

[Simon Forrester]

Hi, we generally get the customer to accept the price for the job and then will only design the artwork, but before producing the sign we get him to OK it and make any alterations he wants.
After all he is free to go to a design agency and get them to do a layout and bring it to you to make.

[Jaybee]

Thanks everyone.

I’ve followed Chalkie’s advice and told my client that I’ll do an artwork, make several versions of it and make changes as necessary, but politely informed him that all copies stay with me. The guy was happy with that arrangement. It’s my guess that he’s one of the nervous nellies that Martin helpfully reminded me about, and I acted accordingly. I’m fortunate that my sign supplier is very co-operative and kindly draws my artworks on a speculative basis.

Personally, I think it’s a sign of the times (no pun intended) that we are operating in what is an increasingly buyers market, contrary to the glory days of 1995. I often find sales resistance when I hoist markups beyond 30%, and that is AFTER buying from a very competitive and cooperative Trade supplier. I think this is due to an increase in the supply of Signmakers in the last 8 years, not a decrease in demand. To make matters worse, (I’m sure it’s no secret to any of you that) Signage has a low perceived value – many times I’ve seen customers blanche when I tell them how much a lightbox costs.

It’s becoming imperative to filter out the whimsical timewasters from those with a solid, business requirement for signage, so I always give a ball-park figure when I’m with the customer. If he likes it, I DON’T take advantadge and jack up the price excessively. OTOH, if he doesn’t, I just give him my card and tell him to call me when he can work up the courage to break open his piggy bank!

Gotta dash, Frasier’s just come up on the box!!

JayBee.

[Bob Gilliland]

JayBee,

A few “you’s” in this reply, but not directed personally to you JayBee. “You” is stated as “us” at large and not with one specific individual in mind (in fact, I include myself in this at times). Not easy to digest, harder to implement, but very worthy of the returns that are revealed if put into practice.

Wondering how “that” customer’s argument would work when dealing with an architect? Not sure about over there, but over here an architect isn’t going to draw up specs and have it built BEFORE he expects payment. How about over there in the Motherland? Will an architect work for free or contingent upon a “client” liking what is drawn up? Or how about an ad agency? Over here, you’re putting some big bucks on the table before pencil ever hits paper. Why should “you” be any different? I see those professions along with ours as professional services offered and worthy of such conduct.

If “you” are new to the business I understand it may be a bit more difficult, not impossible, but difficult, to have some pictures and samples of what you do available for a client to review. If a potential client doesn’t have faith in your abilities at that point, “I” wouldn’t have faith in the potential client being sincere about conducting business.

I view all business transactions as just that, a transaction; the exchange of SOMETHING for SOMETHING. The client wants you to invest your time and talent to draw, design, or layout “something”. What do you get in return for your commitment to this? For me, a “possible” job is not a bankable asset. A signed contract isn’t as good as money, but is far better then a “promise”. An actual deposit of monetary funds tells me the client is interested in conducting business with me. Anything short of the two is viewed as a window shopper and not serious enough for consideration. There are plenty of other sign shops around me that would be happy to entertain someone like that; I’m just not one of them.

It’s not always easy to operate this way, and if it was, it would probably be the “norm” and not worth a mention. Conduct and portray yourself as a professional and watch your clientele follow your lead and treat you as such. Be a guy that just makes signs and doesn’t concern yourself with good business practice and your customers will follow that lead as well. I know what example “I” want to set, how about “you”?

[Martin C]

That’s a hardline you take there Bob (:) (:) (:)

I agree wholeheartedly with your business ethic if it works for you but have to take issue with your analogy regarding architects and ad agencies. Ad agencies spend thousands pitching for new business with no promise of a return and it’s only when they win the contract that the money comes rolling in. They have budgets put aside and agreements to back charge the work they have done but only if they are successful. Otherwise it’s zilch!There’s only one reason they can do it and that’s because they have confidence in themselves and their team.

I do think that Signmakers should look at design as a sales tool and if anyone is losing business (on a regular basis) because there customer is shopping around on price there is probably a more deep seated problem.

A footnote to any creative work is that it is transferable. The infamous ‘Refreshes the parts that other Beers don’t reach’ slogan was dismissed by a number of big brands before Heineken realised it’s potential.

I’ve a great Shop front Design for a Cafe’ if I can find someone to buy it!!! 😳

I’ve just thought of another story so may as well bore the pants off you in one! I used to sell Yellow Pages ads and the top sales guy in out office employed his own artist paying him out of his own salary. He’d take the customers old ad, double the size, have the artist revamp it to make it look fantastic and it was as good as sold before he even opened his case! He was on £40k in 1988, probably retired now!?

[paddy]

As a beginner in the sign trade, I offer free no obligation estimates to all customers, including a digital photo of what there shopfront or vehicle will look like once finished.
I must point out that there isnt really a lot of complicated artwork at the moment but most quotes take me around an hour to two hours to complete. I am pretty hungry for the work at the moment and sitting in front of the PC for a few hours in the evening is a damn site better than coronation street in my mind.

If the customer goes for the sign then the estimate, although free initially, has the time spent designing and producing the estimate incorporated.

I am pretty competitive and havnt had anyone not come back and have the work done yet.

It all depends on whether you are hungry enough to take the risk of spending a few hours designing for nothing.

At present I am.

[Bob Gilliland]

Martin,

You’re changing the rules on me here. The way I interpreted the initial post was the customer came a knocking, unsolicited on JayBee’s part. I see that act as being a completely different monster to tackle then you or I taking the offense to actively seeking out a project or clientele, pointed out in your reply. In that case, yes, I agree, spec work is usually required.

I’m aware of a few larger sign projects here on this side of the pond where one must PAY to acquire a sign development package and PAY to submit your proposal, all with no guarantee of work. Again, to me, this is completely different and is approached differently.

And please don’t think for a minute that this policy is written in stone at InKnowVative. Like other policies in place, they are nothing more then guidelines. The thing I need to remember is that if the client doesn’t reciprocate the “nice” gesture put forth on my end bending or being lenient on policy, there is no one other then me to blame and certainly not the client. I am the one that broke the policy first (setting the example to be followed).

Paddy,

Your last line says a lot! Hopefully the hunger doesn’t last long. The fact that you’re here on Roberts board probably indicates your on the way. Remember that the folks that participate here on this and similar caliber boards are but a small percentage of the overall trade. To most here, it’s more then a nine to five job and that fact is reflected in the questions and responses posted.

[Phill Fenton]

This happened to me today:-

I went to look at a shop front today to quote for a new sign.

The shop owner during our conversation asked me to provide him with “two or three” layouts when sending him my quotation. I explained that I would not produce any visuals until I had been paid a deposit – but could get back to him with some example prices and specifications. If he then wished to progress this further I would produce artwork once a deposit had been paid

He said – you do not understand – I have contacted two other sign companies and will be using the one that provides the best design at the lowest cost 😆 😆

Needless to say – after much conversation and haggling I eventually walked out as I knew this was turning out to be a complete wast of time.

Don’t waste time with customers who are trying to screw you 😀 😀

Find better customers 😉

[signworks.se]

I usually go with a gut instinct on this one. If i feel the customer is genuine i will normally knock up a few ideas. If i have had a visit like your’s Phil there is no way i would part with a design as i have been burnt a few times doing this.

Cheers
Danny 🙂

[Simon Clayton]

I agree with Bob and Phil on this one,
Why should we design for free..
As Paddy has said he is hungry for work, but how would you feel if your designs were being used other sign companys.
Many times i have been given artwork and the price and asked if i can do it cheaper,
fact is i could beat most prices but i don’t want to work for £4.00 an hour
You normally find these type of clients trouble, holding money back and saying thing like “I thougt it was going to be like this…” etc
Deposit first design later.

[Neil Kelly]

I often do designs for nothing but guard them against copying by not releasing them to the customer until they have committed to the job with a deposit, I encourage them to visit me in the shop to see the work I have prepared and they cant help see what we are about and the type of company and professional image we try to project.

If your designs are good they sell them selves what you have to try to convince them is before you even start to do a design that they are dealing with the right company and getting other quotes if they bother is a formality, In fact sometimes if they query the price I encourage them to source another sign company and set a challenge that they are not going to get better value for money.

Ill never rubbish another sign company but just get the customer to question why is it cheaper are they using cheaper vinyl thinner plastic spending less time on there design and like to throw in a well there will always be someone that’s cheaper but that’s not the type of signs we have built our reputation on.

On the hole I would say our success rate on converting new enquiries to jobs is 7 out of ten out of the 3 we don’t get one is Mr cheep and the others were jobs we weren’t that bothered about anyway. So invest time in designs they are what wins the jobs the secret is judging how much time you put in. For me doing the designs is the second best part of doing this job after banking the cheque.

Neil………

[Martin Pearson]

Like Neil we do most of the designs before we get the job, I can’t se how you can give a customer a price before you know what you are going to do for him. Like Neil we like to think our designs sell the job and we encourage customers to visit the shop to view their artwork and sometimes make very minor changes, hopefully so they feel that they are part of the proccess and their ideas are important and considered. We would rather not have a customer present while the design work is going on, we have done this but it takes 3 times as long and you usually end up back where you started anyway. We do maybe three designs at differing prices and try to sell each design on its own merits. Quite often we are surprised because people who we thought would just go for the cheapest option end up with the dearest and people who had gone on about image, impact and the importance of advertising end up with the cheapest.

[Martin C]

I think the last two posts from Neil and Martin are about right. Design is so, so important as Mike has stated on many occasions.

I can see why it irritates you Phil, but when a customer says ” I have contacted two other sign companies and will be using the one that provides the best design at the lowest cost”..isn’t that what everyone does? I always assume I’m up against another company. Whether it be a new pair of shoes or a new piece of equipment I always look for the best possible item at the best possible price!!

Mind you I’ve some pretty awful shoes!! (hot)

[Phill Fenton]

Sorry guys – but you’re wrong! Time is money – To go producing artwork without any guarantee that it will be paid for is potentialy losing money. I would encourage you to spend more of your time producing work for which you are being paid. This may mean finding better customers. I reckon your time would be better spent marketing your business during quieter periods than producing 2 or 3 speculative layouts for a customer who is out to get the best he can at the lowest price 😕

Try walking away from the occasional job now and again – it can be very satisfying and sends a strong message back to the customer 😆 😆

[Neil Kelly]

I disagree if 2 out of the 3 become your jobs what’s the problem its time well spent I’m a designer not a marketing expert my designs do my selling the result is no quiet periods.
I agree with saying no every now and then I don’t spend time on every enquiry but if I think they have potential ill commit to layout before ive secured the job, It works for me.

Regards Neil……..

[Martin C]

I guess the longer I’m in the sign game the more cowboy customers I’ll meet but , touch wood, I’ve not had a problem so far.

On a positive note, and a big shout for speculative artwork, a local Hairdresser (second one this week!) asked me to do a layout for a new directional sign as they were moving to upstairs premises. It took me a couple of hours of my time and I could so easily have misunderstood the brief, and been shown the door, but she liked it so much she’s ordered the original sign, two for the stairwell, a hanging sign for the back, 3 A-boards and I’m to do the window graphics as well!

I have to say it did look good and if she didn’t like it then the design would have transferred to many other types of business. (:) (:)

[Neil Kelly]

Good point Martin the More designs and layouts you do the better they get and the quicker you become in creating them.

Neil…….

[Phill Fenton]

Neil – I’ve seen the standard of your work (the “Musto layout you did for me was brilliant) so I’m not suprised you have such a high conversion rate 😀

I’m just a bit worried that you may be undervaluing your talent by doing work speculatively – though if it works for you why not.

From personal experience, I used to do a lot of speculative work but the dishonest few that took advantage hardened my resolve. I am now very aware of the need to make productive use of my time. I actually work shorter hours than I used to (I try and take every weekend off – and minimise the amount of time I spend working at night. I also spend a lot of time on these boards when I should be making signs 😕 ) but by minimising the time I waste I make more money overall.

Like you, I also enjoy the design aspect of signmaking – but I still think the customer needs to be paying for this time. In the example I quoted yesterday, this client was expecting 3 different sign business to offer him a range of designs – 2 would obviously be wasting their time no matter how good they were. The customer does need to understand that this time needs to be covered in some way. If every customer was offered a range of designs by 3 different companies to choose from – imagine the total amount of time wasted. Not everyone will have a high conversion rate like you – and this wasted time will inevitably mean either sign companies going out of business – or increased prices. Both scenarios are bad news for the customer 😀

[Neil Kelly]

I understand what you are saying and if every client was asking for designs from three companies then yes that’s a lot of wasted time and effort and I would be very reluctant to do anything for this chap if I thought he was a time waster

But if you have confidence in your ability and your name is Nero and you are the ONE ( sorry went to see Matrix Reload last night couldn’t resist that ) then your going to be the one out of the three who gets the jobs.

I suppose the norm is we don’t know how many other people are being asked to quote against on any one job, and in some ways it shouldn’t matter, but if you think you have lost before you start then you have, think you have won and you stand a chance.

quote :

either sign companies going out of business – or increased prices. Both scenarios are bad news for the customer

But both are good for you Its a tough world and I wouldn’t wish this to happen to any body but if you were an unsuccessful Doctor then Id be glad you were out of business (:) + Im not here to rip anyone off but I want top dollar for every job I do it means I do less jobs for more wonga.

Just my theory anyway 😉 😉 Big thumbs up to weekends off

PS
How did you get on with the Musto job did you get the job, if so what layout did they end up with.

Kind Regards Neil……

[keith]

We also send the artwork with the final quote. It gives the customer a chance what it is they are paying for. We also tell the full story, ie what the sign is to be made of, how long they can expect it to last under normal circumstances, how long the colours will last, how it is to be fixed and on what date etc.
Once armed with all the information, plus designs the customer can sit back and relax. It makes us (and we have won many orders from other companies who are cheaper than us on the strength of this method) more professional and when they see the finished quality of the sign we tend to get lots of referrals!!!!!
Using this method we have secured a big (for us anyway) order for signage at a hotel.
All she wanted was a breezer stand and a 4ft X 2ft banner. 6 faxed designs later we finally got the order. She has now changed the selling message on both 8 times to promote her carvery by using things like fathers day etc. It’s not very hard to change but is extremely profitable and EASY.
The lady is a gossip and we fitted her hair dresser’s shop last week and now she wants the outside of her hotel (soon to be expanded to 54 bedrooms!) spruced up with discreet lighting, new illuminated fascia 20ft x 1.5ft, new roadside light box and some nifty car park signs. AND she wants it done in August.
We thought she was going to be a time waster but we are glad we stuck at it.

[Rodney Gold]

I only do full proof type artwork once a quote has been accepted and signed
We charge various fees for doing it , even when a customer has sent the artwork in a required format , there is STILL generally a LOT of work to do on it to prepare it for our machines , thus on one offs or smaller jobs we also charge a fee , albeit reduced. We do NOT call it an artwork fee – we call it a setup fee.
On large jobs or high volume stuff we waive artwork/setup fees in general. We NEVER EVER give artwork out to the client in any eletronic form EVER!!!!!!!!!!!! tho we are prepared to convert to other formats which are not in competiton with what we were asked to do , for example we will convert a Corel drawing to a DXf file etc and send that.

Apart from artwork we are asked to sample as well , and will also genrally only do sampling on acceptance of a quote.

Should a job NOT materialise from either artwork or sampling , the customer gets charged the FULL artwork/setup fee and for every sample and revision we do we also invoice out at 10-20x the unit price quoted.
These conditions are on our quotation and the customer is made fully aware of this and signs for it.

We are not prepared to use our creativity , designers and production facilities to do R&D for our customer for them to take the results and get it done “cheaper” from someone who’s only input on the job is to press cut/print.

Often on bigger jobs , we ARE prepared to do artwork and sample etc without total comittment by the customer espcially if it is a co or organization we are keen to do business with, this is a sort of “bet” , we bet our time etc on the hope of getting the job.
We will do this once or twice , however if we find the customers we are doing this for abuses it , we enforce the artwork/sample policy.
We often do artwork and sample for types of work we havent done before and treat the money and time spent on this as “school fees” IE we are prepared to spend the money to develop the product or service and learn from that development , if the customer pays or takes the job , they pay the “school fees” , if not we do and have added another product or service.

In the final analysis , why should you as a sign co commit YOUR resources when the customer isn’t prepared to demonstrate the same level of commitment.

One of our biggest problems IS artwork , some customers , including some major corporate design departments are worse than cretins when it comes to this , we have a VERY specific artwork requirement sheet and still get stuff like a poor quality business card scanned at 100 dpi embedded in a CDR file as “vector” artwork:)

Apart from all this , we also REFUSE to deal with customers who “lie” to us , IE come in and enquire about quantities akin to a phone no which are in our opinion impossible

For example a startup funeral Co came to us and asked us to quote on and do a free “urgent” sample of brass plates for “gravestones” and told us the QTY would be about 200 a week .
I politely asked them to leave the premises and go elsewhere and when my new saleslady who was “excited” about this potential large order asked me why , I explained to her that 200 a week means they are conducting 40 funerals a day , which in itself is impossible.
Apart from which that 200 a week assumes that every funeral they conduct will only have a brass plate as a “headstone” and at the end of it all , brass is a VERY poor choice for something that is exposed to the elemets and has to last decades.

We are also asked to quote on huge quantites and then are told “Ok , we will take 10 of the 100 “. when we tell the customer that 10 will cost a LOT more than the 100 quoted on we are generally told “Yes , but we will order the other 90”
Our policy on this is that the customer pays the inflated price for the 10 and when they order the additional 90 , we credit the difference between the 10 price and the 100 price for the 90 order.
In this game the customer isnt always right and when we have reservations about the way our work is going to be used , we put this in writing , in fact we put EVERYTHING in writing and accept no orders revisions etc over the phone. There are tons of “fly by nights” in our neck of the woods and I have shelves of uncollected goods to prove it , thus our “strict” policys , it shakes the timewasters out the tree.

Another problem are “revisionists” – designs and materials that change dramatically with every revision and at the end of it all , the customer expects to be charged the vinyl and ABS price initially quoted on for a job that is now stainless steel and 20mm thick acrylic.

Having said all that , when a customer comes in and asks for something , we dont just present the rules!!!!!!. We do conceptualise , do rough sketches , show various substrates and materials etc and generally get a feel for what the customer wants prior to quoting – but we certainly don’t need to do full artwork and design to quote. IMHO your prior work and samples and reputation should sell your services to the customer.

I suppose it depends what you are in business for , whether you want to empire build or are comfortable with the position one is in , a fast growing business is VERY stressful both mentally and financially and eventually one has to change direction in terms of what you do as a business owner.
Various other tasks take up your time and the hours spent on conceptualization and actually programming in that design eat seriously into your other time , at that point you have to decide whether to employ a junior to implement your concept.
If you are a good designer , you can do a lot better by employing an operator to program , cut , weed , apply , rig etc and devote your time to do what YOU do best.

Money IS important espcially if you have staff , as they are also your responsibily , but it is NOT the only thing that counts
Pride in your workmanship , job satisfaction , customer satisfaction , reputation etc are all factors one has to account for and all of these determine the path one takes with customers.

[Sparky]

For what it’s worth …….

I regularly do layouts for customers before taking deposits, no “commitment” & still have a very good conversion rate of AT LEAST 90% overall. (not “shouting about it”, just telling it as it is).

But, I do talk to my customers & usually spend maybe 20 minutes with them watching the screen as I knock together a basic layout for them, then STOP …. open the portfolio (hate that word) & bounce some prices off them for previous jobs, which gives them an idea. The usual procedure then is to judge what they seem to like & tell them to “pop in tomorrow” & it will give me a chance to refine the design a bit.

Might all be worthless waffle from a little signman, but works for me day in day out & we just don’t get caught out (well, maybe 1% but who cares about them ;))

[Sparky]

sorry, duplicate post

[Steve Broughton]

Heres an alternative way of doing it, do a design, either make the customer come to you to view it or take it to them, do not “stick it in the post” as I’ve been asked to do but make sure you are there when they see it if they want to “take it to show the wife” (yeah right :x) then say “OK but I’m gonna need a design release fee before I let you have it” , if they say no then show them the door.
I’m honest with people and always tell them that I’ve been burned in the past by customers taking my designs elsewhere and getting it done cheaper, of course other signmakers can do it cheaper because the most important part of the job, the design, has been done for them.
People have brought me designs from other signmakers to copy and price before, but I’ve never done this, A because its something I won’t do and B because the design is always rubbish and no where as good as I can do 😆

[Robert Lambie]

same here!

do the design on comp or show them a proof. if they want a copy its about £25. if they go ahead with the sign then the £25 is knocked off the bill… they cant ask for fairer than that..

do we go into a clothes shop & try on jeans, then say.. i really like them but im not 100% sure.. can i pop home and show the wife? 😮

[Alan]

Wouldn’t it be nice if an optician would test your eyes and give you a proscription with no charge so you could pop down the street into Specsavers and just pay for the specs?

[jon vital]

We put a copyright notice on all visuals which states there is a £45 charge for artwork which will be waived should we do the job.