Do we sell ourselves short designing

[Ruel Maxwell]

Designing itself is a service and should be paid for simple. No two ways about it. It depends on the market you’re in however that will determine prices.

The dilemma you have with feeling bad for charging is a fallacy as we tend to feel that designing is just a little time spent and it isn’t a tangible product so no need to charge too much.

What I do is I always quote for designing on my invoice and I charge a premium. Sometimes it’s an hourly rate or a flat rate depending on what I’m designing.

[Stephen Morriss]

Yes we do the same, we end up doing a van and including a logo etc and before you know it you’ve got £250 for a van all in and your handing the client the artwork to send to printers etc, if they asked a design company to do that they’d have been charged £250 for the logo design on it’s own.
I had a local client go to a designer for a logo and the designer wanted to charge £700+ :shocked: it was nice but wow, he did the design in a short afternoon. Fortunately it was for an accountants and he was happy enough swapping the design for part of the accountancy bill the designer had.

[Martin Gray]

I got a look at the invoice he was at it for 4 hours @ £65 an hour. I’m self taught so always feel I’m slow at designing so normally half my hours that I’ve worked on it. But I think the guy is at it a bit because it’s a simple layout job and I could of done it in a couple of hours max. And remember I’m slow!

[Stephen Morriss]

It’s not the time doing the layout but more the idea, I can copy stuff all day but ask me for an original design and I’m stuffed However some of the designs around now are getting to the point of being bland and are taking the idea of clean and simple to new levels, how long is it before some big company registers a simple coloured box or circle as a company logo? Or has it already been done?

Steve

[Martin Gray]

I totally agree. Some of the ideas I’ve seen are amazing and I understand that’s what your paying for. But I know I could of done this even with my ability!

[David Hammond]

Back when my dad started out, it was artboards and freehand drawing. He bought the first Mac computer into the company, and nobody thought it would catch on. 😆

It revolutionised the design industry, those who didn’t adapt, soon got left behind, and being good on a computer was a well sought after skill. The software & hardware cost £1000’s back then, and it had to be paid for. Back in the hay day it was a good money maker.

Thing is now, subscription based software reduced the cost, and made it accessible to anyone. Schools are full of computers, I grew up with a computer in the school from Primary school (started with a BBC, then an Acorn machine, graduating to windows in high school) and kids are being taught how to use them day in, day out. With the likes of you tube & the internet it has made is so easy to learn yourself. Even I resort to that when I can’t remember how to do something.

I think the perception now is that anyone with a PC, and Photoshop (because all designers use photoshop!) are designers.

I’m also useless at designing logo’s, but chucked together a 1colour A5 leaflet and business card yesterday in 20mins.

We do the same, & do vans for fixed prices, provided they have a logo, if they don’t have a high resolution file of the logo we ship it off to India to get redrawn for a few quid, if they require a logo, we charge a nominal fee for it, after trying to gauge what they want. If they’ve no idea and give vague descriptions, we charge more, a customer who can show you things they like, colours, themes, less.

The hardest part, is extracting from the customer exactly what it is they want, or are expecting. :bangshead: :bangshead:

[Martin Gray]

Yes maybe your right David. We’re not designers we’re sign makers. Probably because we work with logos, layouts and designs not always of our own. We try and improve ourselves when it comes to our own designs.

[David Hammond]

We are designers… but I don’t class myself as ‘designer’, certainly not to design agency/studio standard.

That being said, our industry has so much more scope than just print, Matt & Gloss finishes, 3d Letters, Flat Cut, Acrylic, Composite, Vinyl, Lighting, etc, and being able to use them to create something special… whilst a design agency may simply make a pretty picture when it comes to signs & vans.

[Peter Wynne]

I think the industry as a whole generally under charges terribly for design work.

Designing suitable hi-res artwork, ready for print with relevant bleed and crops can be far more complex than most people give themselves credit for, and requires a skillset which in most cases has taken a considerable amount of time to learn.

There’s a mindset whereby people feel that they can’t charge as much for designing a job as they can for doing a job. But I think for certain jobs (especially logos) I think there should be a premium.
A logo is something a business probably won’t change for some time, and will be used on absolutely everything from business cards, signage, flyers, clothing, vehicles, websites, social media, etc. Simply charging for a couple of hours of time suddenly seems like remarkable value for money for the customer!

[Martin Lemiesz]

We charge £35 per hour for design service we know about agencies locally which charge £70-100 per hour – yes their work is normally a bit more creative than what we could come up with (this is possibly because we are being realistic about future uses of the artwork and machinery/materials limitations) but we hate to work with some so called professional designs as they are detached from reality and only usable on screen – many designers don’t have a clue how to prepare artwork to work with a vinyl plotter or printer – never mind foam cutters or routers we use…
We often have to deal with clients who paid a lot of money to have their designs prepared only to face another charge from us to make those usable for manufacturing purposes…

[David Rogers]

Absolutely. We undervalue our design skills sometimes including original artwork such as logos and concepts (which over 50% of our work is) into a standard price as we’re getting the job such as a van or shop front, plus the added extras of business cards, menus, banners or repeat work.
Occasionally we’ll do logo only work. This sucks as customers don’t value original ideas and want endless options or revisions. I’ve been on the verge of chucking people out before. As much as you’d like to charge properly for it you invariably accept that you’re not going to get what you deserve and you take what you can get..the whole white collar/ blue collar thing because you ‘make stuff’ not a super, professional designer.

We get sent / brought ‘designers’ efforts every day…and some are frankly useless, amateurs in our field using fonts and colours that make us gag..But they have a nice office and a Mac…Some barely able give a client good representation or understand scale / large format…Yet they syphon cash from them easily.

[Ruel Maxwell]

This makes great designers like myself cringe all the bad rep we’re getting but I fully understand anyone with a computer is a designer or sign maker but that doesn’t detract from the fact that sometimes you spend hours on a design are you being paid for that time when you charge 100quid no you’re not and $35 per hour isn’t your shop rate you should always use your shop rate when charging for designs or signs doesn’t matter.

But let me ask you guys this if someone came to you and asked you to design a logo and you charge him/her say $80 and when you look it turns out to be a Nike like company how would you feel. I would bet you would feel severely under compensated

[Ruel Maxwell]

So here is my suggestion it’s how I work out my prices I have an hourly rate that is based on my overheads etc as well as my years of experience but I also provide a questionnaire that helps me to gauge how much this logo values to this client then I charge. So for example a simple brick and mortar business would get a significantly different charge than say a medium sized to large business

[Ruel Maxwell]

You see logo design is not just about getting the name of the company what they do and just sitting at the PC/MAC churning out ideas choose 3 and present to the client. It’s way more than that it involves market research so you identify demographic competition etc. it involves colour manipulation understanding which colours convey what emotion for example a lawyers office wouldn’t necessarily use red in their logo or yellow etc…

[David Rogers]

quote Ruel Maxwell:

You see logo design is not just about getting the name of the company what they do and just sitting at the PC/MAC churning out ideas choose 3 and present to the client. It’s way more than that it involves market research so you identify demographic competition etc. it involves colour manipulation understanding which colours convey what emotion for example a lawyers office wouldn’t necessarily use red in their logo or yellow etc…

Definitely agree with you. I work to a brief that I ask for during a quick consultation to get a feel for them as nothing is worse than hearing "just come up with something". Establishing type of business, image they wish to convey, liked or disliked colours / styles can have me ‘getting it" without having to make up a ten page pile of colour swatches, random inspiration photos, key words, mission statements to woo them like I’ve seen faaaar too often from over artsy designers trying to justify £3k for modified clipart with a ‘how can I make this fit" back story.
Logo design is a skill of creativity and marketing. How long to spend and how much meaning, obvious or subliminal, that you imbue will dictate the budget….Or the budget will dictate 20 mins or many, many hours.
D

[Simon Worrall]

I think the hard honest truth is this:
There are a lot of really badly designed signs out there.
Horrible, unreadable, clashing colours, apostrophes in the wrong place, etc etc.
I think that the general view of our customers is that we are not really up to the job, and they would rather get an actual designer to take care of this part because we are not to be trusted.

Many of us have the same idea about ourselves, and therefore sell ourselves short.

Because signs need to be read and understood in seconds, they are an excercise in simplicity.
This is a highly skilled undertaking, we have to pare away all the extraneous stuff leaving just the core.
We understand what a sign has to do, and we should charge appropriately for this skill.

Simon.

[Stephen Morriss]

Very good point Simon, we work with a designer who is great at brochures and general design etc but if she comes up with a banner design she always puts too much on it, loads of colours etc. This is for a 3m banner at the side of a 60mph road on a corner, the banners need to simple and clear but she does a complicated (nice) design every time and the actual important info ends up being lost.

Steve

[A.Kordowski]

I originally come from a print background litho and digital, and have been involved in signage/large format for the last 6 years. Ive had lots of dealings with designers and yes they can be very arty farty when it comes to designing. Id call myself an artworker give me a brief and images etc and ill put something together that looks good. Most designers have been to art college and get carried away with designs with a large bill as well. We always charge for design normally about £20 for 30 mins. Its amazing when you ask you’re customers if they’ve got artwork and they answer…."no buts its not much just a couple of pics and some type". I think they think I’ve got a magic artwork button and its suddenly appears……

[Chris Wilson]

We have another issue up here with graphic designers and customers supplying logos. There all low res. Some are stupidly small. Completely out shape. Then emails have to go back and forth, 10 emails later we finally have the file, but it’s in bits so I have to put it together anyway. I literally had someone just yesterday tell "aww we use Corel draw to, I’ll just send you the file". What I got was a CDR File, which consisted of the graphic, in a really low res jpeg, about A5 size masterfully put on top of the lime t-shirts that’s it’s going onto.

So I just get on with it and try and do as much in house as possible as it actually saves me time, phone calls and hassle.
Downside is with that my design inspiration lacks.

I have thankfully found 2 really good local designers in the last month that understand files and don’t produce something that’s almost good enough for a Facebook picture.

[Ruel Maxwell]

quote Chris Wilson:

We have another issue up here with graphic designers and customers supplying logos. There all low res. Some are stupidly small. Completely out shape. Then emails have to go back and forth, 10 emails later we finally have the file, but it’s in bits so I have to put it together anyway. I literally had someone just yesterday tell “aww we use Corel draw to, I’ll just send you the file”. What I got was a CDR File, which consisted of the graphic, in a really low res jpeg, about A5 size masterfully put on top of the lime t-shirts that’s it’s going onto.

So I just get on with it and try and do as much in house as possible as it actually saves me time, phone calls and hassle.
Downside is with that my design inspiration lacks.

I have thankfully found 2 really good local designers in the last month that understand files and don’t produce something that’s almost good enough for a Facebook picture.

seems you’re dealing with some designers that just have a pc and some software lol

[Simon Worrall]

quote Chris Wilson:

We have another issue up here with graphic designers and customers supplying logos. There all low res. Some are stupidly small. Completely out shape. Then emails have to go back and forth, 10 emails later we finally have the file, but it’s in bits so I have to put it together anyway..

Yup;
And they will question the bill so you have to write down all the details so you can explain it!…. :rollseyes:

[Chris Wilson]

quote Simon Worrall:

..

Yup;
And they will question the bill so you have to write down all the details so you can explain it!…. :rollseyes:[/quote]

100%. Plus the pleading for a discount on there 2ft x 5ft banner at £40. But the designer got paid £100 and did a good job. *shakes head*

Maybe it’s my youthful looks that make a target. Should grow a beard or something and dye my hair silver.

[Peter Johnson]

I always state, right at the start of a transaction, that I charge a flat fee for artwork. I explain that the reason for this is the time involved and that so often in the past, I have completed artwork for someone only for them to take it to another sign-maker who then quotes a cheaper price for the job because all the design work is done for them.

I also tell them that if they then have the sign made by me, I will discount the final quoted price by the cost of the artwork.
Then, you just make sure you add the price of the design work on top of what your normal quote would have been.

Every single person I have explained this to has agreed that it is fair and have all had their signs made by me. But I always bill them for the artwork, just in case they do decide to go elsewhere.

[Martin Lemiesz]

quote Chris Wilson:

quote Simon Worrall:

..

Yup;
And they will question the bill so you have to write down all the details so you can explain it!…. :rollseyes:

100%. Plus the pleading for a discount on there 2ft x 5ft banner at £40. But the designer got paid £100 and did a good job. *shakes head*

Maybe it’s my youthful looks that make a target. Should grow a beard or something and dye my hair silver.[/quote]

I’m in the same (life) boat 😉

[David Hammond]

I know some commercial printers who will simply reject the files. (I had it yesterday when I uploaded the wrong file to one. If it’s not fixed by 5pm it’s processed the next day, and puts 1 day on the delivery date)

They stipulate how they want it supplying, if it’s not in that format, the job is paused until you sort it. If you can’t sort it, the’ll charge a minimum fee to make any alterations… even for a 5min job. If the file is low resolution, it’s flagged, and it’s the customers decision whether to proceed or not. Same with deadlines, if you want it for Monday, we need it by 11am Thursday etc.

My gripe is when they supply artwork, after downloading a font from the internet and don’t convert it to outlines :bangshead: :bangshead:

[Hugh Potter]

all that and lots more David!!!!

I was talking to Shane Drew a while back – think it was him! A customer had been charged several 1000’s for a logo and after a couple of years requested it in another format, they told him he’d have to pay again as his 5 uses of the logo had been done!! So had he been!

Long and the short, I charge £40 p/h for logo design based on the criteria I get. Then a one off fee of £200 to sign over all copyright and numerous file types to the customer, with unlimited usage.

Generally I don’t think £300 for a custom logo is a great deal of money considering the time and money I’ve spent learning how to do it all. It quickly sorts out the customers who understand what a logo / image is worth to their business, and those who’ll just go back to shistaprint or "logo’s for a fiver.com"

I used to just charge an hourly rate but honestly, it doesn’t stop once you’ve designed it and done a sign job, even sending them all the files they’ll probably ever need, you’ll be asked to send it again in the future, so by doing the copyright thing I’ll also include lifetime file types as long as no changes are required to the logo.

[Martin Lemiesz]

I’m in process of explaining to a high-flying designer why the file he supplied for a vinyl job needs modifying – he doesn’t seem to get that any line seen in wireframe gets cut and that objects should not be overlapping, lines should have their appearances (stroke) expanded… our client starts to think I’m being awkward or even backward asking such a successful designer to put he’s sxxt together #anoyed – I’m 90% sure as well he’s charging them every time I send the file back… :bangshead:

[Martin Cole]

My jaw hits the floor when I see some of the drivel I get from designers. Unquestionably the sign maker gets the bum end of the stick…. but I guess that’s up to us to change it..some good replies above

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Attachments:

[Martin Lemiesz]

quote Martin Lemiesz:

I’m in process of explaining to a high-flying designer why the file he supplied for a vinyl job needs modifying – he doesn’t seem to get that any line seen in wireframe gets cut and that objects should not be overlapping, lines should have their appearances (stroke) expanded… our client starts to think I’m being awkward or even backward asking such a successful designer to put he’s sxxt together #anoyed – I’m 90% sure as well he’s charging them every time I send the file back… :bangshead:

Client just sent me this from the designer palace 😉

I’ve spoken to our designers and they have come back with the below:- We don’t have guidelines from the printer we can’t amend the artwork in the way the printer requires as we aren’t sure ourselves.
The .ai file I sent you is the fully editable artwork file, so the printer can edit that file however they need the artwork to be.

:bangshead: :bangshead: :bangshead: :bangshead:

[David Hammond]

Charge your customer for making the alterations.

We have someone wanting to buy the brand of one of our customers who went into administration. We charged for the artwork, but never signed over full rights to it all. This will be interesting!

[Hugh Potter]

quote Martin Lemiesz:

quote Martin Lemiesz:

I’m in process of explaining to a high-flying designer why the file he supplied for a vinyl job needs modifying – he doesn’t seem to get that any line seen in wireframe gets cut and that objects should not be overlapping, lines should have their appearances (stroke) expanded… our client starts to think I’m being awkward or even backward asking such a successful designer to put he’s sxxt together #anoyed – I’m 90% sure as well he’s charging them every time I send the file back… :bangshead:

Client just sent me this from the designer palace 😉

I’ve spoken to our designers and they have come back with the below:- We don’t have guidelines from the printer we can’t amend the artwork in the way the printer requires as we aren’t sure ourselves.
The .ai file I sent you is the fully editable artwork file, so the printer can edit that file however they need the artwork to be.

:bangshead: :bangshead: :bangshead: :bangshead:

.. and then they send an ai file that is so over complicated that it takes a day to sort it out… eg. a simple red to white fade is one layer and one outline in Corel, if I import an ai with the same fade it’s about 300 individual fountain steps that you have to redraw as one layer anyway – any attempt to ‘weld them’ make the pc poo itself and shut Corel, or at least lock it up for a good while!!

many designs are fine for print – if the remember to design in cmyk, but awful when you need to make a cut line for contouring!

[Ruel Maxwell]

quote Martin Cole:

My jaw hits the floor when I see some of the drivel I get from designers. Unquestionably the sign maker gets the bum end of the stick…. but I guess that’s up to us to change it..some good replies above

im stealing this @Martin Cole lol