Do I use print and cut?

[Phill Fenton]

I don’t know if this helps to answer your question or not – but all I can offer is my experience of my own set of circumstances.

I use a cadet printer which prints and cuts in one. Generally speaking I prefer to use Corel to assign a cutting contour. The file is exported as an eps and I use a Wassatch rip to print and cut the file. I also have Signlab which can be used to print and cut in one action. I find that using Signlab is no better (or worse) than using Corel and Wassatch.

[Kevin Flowers]

Owen
don’t use Flexi for it now but in the past printed on Mutoh telling Flexi to put reg marks for the installed cutter (mine was a Summa D120). Flexi will then print the file saving a copy in production manager to enable you to put the print in the cutter & send the cut path. I am presuming in FS7 you don’t have the driver for the FC7000

Kev

[Owen Lees]

Cheers for responses.

It looks as though I’m trying to get something out of the system which it can’t do too well (which has been suggested before).

I’ve just been reading up on the methods using the Graphtec software and I think I need to start using the optical sensor properly to start with, i think the offsets are what may be causing issues.

I really like this Mimaki – and for the small amount of contour work we do right now (which obviously can change!) its not worth getting a p&c machine.

Funnily enough our ancient PC60 did a wonderous job on contouring – sad but true.

Oo

[Warren Beard]

I do some stickers and small vehicle prints on my Canon Pigment printer, I then laminate by hand and then contour cut on my Summa and the accuracy is perfect, it is definitely all about set up, if it’s slightly wrong going in it will be wrong coming out.

Just some encouragement if it works on my set up it should work on a better quality printer.

cheers

Warren

[Owen Lees]

encouraged encouraged 🙂 🙂

I am sitting down right now poring over the manual and setups, there has to be something wrong somewhere in my workflow – i feel certain of it.

Oo

[Warren Beard]

keep trying mate, I had a few issues when I first tried and it was mainly down to not deciphering the manual 100%, I think I was including the 3mm reg mark in the gap when it should have been left out or vise versa, I just did another today from a jpeg supplied of a sphere with a fade so did not want to try add bleed so increased the sphere by 0.5mm as bleed and it cut perfect.

Also forgot to mention I set up in Illustrator and then copy and paste cut marks in to Macsign (came with Summa cutter) so my set up is not fluid in any sense but works well.

good luck mate

Warren

[John Childs]

quote Owen Lees:

I really like this Mimaki – and for the small amount of contour work we do right now (which obviously can change!) its not worth getting a p&c machine.

Hi Owen.

It’s not the amount of print and cut that you do which should influence the machine you buy. It’s the amount of laminating.

If, like us, the vast majority of your prints are laminated, then the vinyl has to come out of the machine between operations anyway, so it makes no difference whether it goes back into the same machine, or another separate one.

I prefer separates because it gives us more flexibility. We can print at the same time as we are cutting, and vice versa.

[Owen Lees]

quote John Childs:

quote Owen Lees:

I really like this Mimaki – and for the small amount of contour work we do right now (which obviously can change!) its not worth getting a p&c machine.

Hi Owen.

It’s not the amount of print and cut that you do which should influence the machine you buy. It’s the amount of laminating.

If, like us, the vast majority of your prints are laminated, then the vinyl has to come out of the machine between operations anyway, so it makes no difference whether it goes back into the same machine, or another separate one.

I prefer separates because it gives us more flexibility. We can print at the same time as we are cutting, and vice versa.

Absolutely, almost all of the output is laminated – and then either used or (hopefully if I can get it right) cut afterwards, so I get your point – it will make no odds.

Cheers for the as usual sage advice people.

Oo

[Owen Lees]

Just to un-confuse anyone who is confused…

I want to keep my existing rip but am prepared to have to use a different rip for print and cut jobs (which would be a royal pain I know) if I can get the technique better.

However reading replies on here I am led to believe that it is perfectly feasible to print and cut on 2 separate machines – that’s a good starter.

Now I am led to trying to determine which version os cutting software to upgrade / cross grade to now. I spoke to Brian @ Impact and have been recommended SL 8 Pro which looks to have a great feature set.

Before I take the plunge though I’d like to establish if the text effects routines in SL are better than in FS – by this I mean that we get asked for a lot of CUT beveled effects, drop shadows and so forth and I am sick of doing them by hand!

I know this post has been hanging around like a bad smell but if I have to train staff in software I really don’t want to have to retrain them 3 months later cos I made a bad choice.

I appreciate that just looking at the goodies in SL may detract from the overall program – but in fairness if I wanted a solid base to produce vinyl then FS would do just fine – its the little extras I’m after to make life easier.

I fine it extraordinary that neither SL or FS appear to have screen shots, extensive feature lists and so forth that other software apps we buy automatically cover on pre sales.

Oo

[Kevin Flowers]

Owen
you can normally download a trial version of Signlab, check the link

http://www.cadlink.com/products/signLab … l_demo.php

Kev

[Russell Huffer]

Owen,

Just a thought we use wasatch as our RIP for print and cut, this is done on separate machines as wider Rolands are print only, so I print on a Roland and cut on a Graphtec. To do this i had to get the cutting module for wasatch. Is there such a module for Shiraz cause this would suit all your requiements.

regards

Russell.

[Owen Lees]

quote Russell-H:

Owen,

Just a thought we use wasatch as our RIP for print and cut, this is done on separate machines as wider Rolands are print only, so I print on a Roland and cut on a Graphtec. To do this i had to get the cutting module for wasatch. Is there such a module for Shiraz cause this would suit all your requiements.

regards

Russell.

No idea but there will be a phone call on Monday to find out!

Oo

[Owen Lees]

quote Kevin Flowers:

Owen
you can normally download a trial version of Signlab, check the link

http://www.cadlink.com/products/signLab … l_demo.php

Kev

Downloading now, will be able to make mind up then – thanks for the intel.

Oo

[John Childs]

When we used Shiraz we cut from Illustrator.

[Owen Lees]

quote John Childs:

When we used Shiraz we cut from Illustrator.

With a plug in – like the Graphtec one? Most artwork is originated in Illustrator as (for print) it handles the colours so well, so as this is our preferred vector package for print I’d be curious.

Corel is the choice for cut files – but I would like to get the staff to do basic stuff inside FS or SL to save a step in the procedure.

Oo

[John Childs]

quote Owen Lees:

With a plug in – like the Graphtec one?

Yeah, that’d work, although we use FineCut because we have Mimaki cutters.

Stuff SL or FS (God, how I hate FS) just design and cut from Illustrator

[Owen Lees]

Hi John

Thanks for that, I’ll download the Mac version and see if I can get the serial on the graphtec to play ball with a USB converter (we currently use a PC) – allthough I suppose I could simply load up CS2 (which we have lying around) onto the PC and then install the Graphtec plugin and share the cutter with Flexi….

So many options!

Oo

Just read your post again and what you are saying makes some sense to me… we have a pair of cutters and to have one hooked up to my mac would be a huge bonus – i think I’ll check out the serial converter.

[John Childs]

Owen,

The Illustrator plug-in that you get with a Graphtec plotter is a cut down version of Flexi. So you should be familiar with that and be able to work it no problems.

As I said, I hate FS with a passion, and that was the reason we dumped a perfectly good Graphtec and converted to Mimaki.

To me, all cutters from reputable manufacturers are the same, they will all do a good job. The difference is the included software which, good or bad, you have to use on a daily basis, so that’s the bit you need to get right.

[John Childs]

quote Owen Lees:

i think I’ll check out the serial converter.

The Kingston USB/serial convertor gave flawless service in the days when we we used serial plotters from iMacs.

[Kevin Flowers]

John Childs wrote
Stuff SL or FS (God, how I hate FS) just design and cut from Illustrator

I have used Flexi for 6 years & love it (all but print manager) i think it is the best cut vinyl program and an average print design program. I can’t get on with Signlab, have had a little play with the Graphtec plugin for illustrator which i liked but then it is based on the cut manager in Flexisign

Kev

John you beat me to it 😳

[John Childs]

quote Kevin Flowers:

have used Flexi for 6 years & love it (all but print manager) i think it is the best cut vinyl program and an average print design program.

To each his own Kev.

I wouldn’t knock Flexisign, after all, I’ve got a copy I’d dearly love to sell, it’s just that I think it takes a very simple job, converting vector information to HPGL, and makes it as complicated as possible. And that’s why I hate it.

For someone who uses FS themselves on a daily basis in their own business, no problem. They learn it and then they know. But try training a constant flow of new staff and see how much lost production and material waste you get.

And don’t get me started on legacy .ai files, or stuff sent to us by clients. As I said, it’s a simple process and only needs a simple programme. Why on earth FS see the need to complicate it I shall never know.

[Kevin Flowers]

John
i agree each to there own, i have always thought Flexi handled things relatively simply. more so since V7 using 8.1 now on a PC. Have seen Flexi on a Mac & it was slightly different. What version do you have John

Kev

[Owen Lees]

I must admit some frustration with ai and eps files from illustrator within flexisign – that may of course just be my 7.5 version – we currently have to take them into corel and convert – then import to FS…

I was rather hoping that SL would cure those issues, I’ll try it today with the trial of SL and if its ok then at least I can give it to my staff for a seamless cut path.

That is of course unless FS now does the text effects and has improved the ai imports!

Oo

[Kevin Flowers]

Owen
there are no improvements within Flexi for bevel effect etc although you can run Adobe plugins inside of Flexi. I have Alien skin loaded which allows me to Bevel, Texture & other effects all from within Flexi. A.I files can still be a pain in Flexi although EPS files seem fine Which i use all the time with Versaworks, which also does not accept AI files. Couldn’t get on with Signlab although i did like some of the effects in had included.
Anyway hope this info helps

Kev

[Owen Lees]

quote Kevin Flowers:

Owen
there are no improvements within Flexi for bevel effect etc although you can run Adobe plugins inside of Flexi. I have Alien skin loaded which allows me to Bevel, Texture & other effects all from within Flexi. A.I files can still be a pain in Flexi although EPS files seem fine Which i use all the time with Versaworks, which also does not accept AI files. Couldn’t get on with Signlab although i did like some of the effects in had included.
Anyway hope this info helps

Kev

Cheers for the update Kevin

I am really after the non printable effects (which is probably a step backwards on the face of it) as thats what we get asked to do a lot.

Its not an issue except the amount of time it takes now to make something simple in vector format, if I was to print all my vinyl life would be so much simpler!

Oo

[Peter Normington]

Owen
signlab is like flexi, it has some problems importing eps and later AI files.
PDF’s can also import wrong, I always open any third party files in illustrator, to make sure that signlab has imported correctly.

If you need to bevel text on a regular basis, have you considered using Pre bevelled fonts?

Peter

[Owen Lees]

Wooo hooo!

I just installed cutting master thing from graphtec and it works!
Happy Bunny here – now to seriously set up the automatic laser eye jobby and test the process.

So much easier to cut from Illustrator for the tiny amount of print and cut we do. I should have mentioned that we can open CS3 ai files directly in Shiraz to print without needing to use a print method, hence why cutting from Illustrator is so cool for us.

Now its only down to whether I get SL or not.

I’ll post back with a rundown of what I did (if it helps) to get it all going right.

oo

[Owen Lees]

Would you believe it, the day after I claim never to have to do much contour work I get a load though the door!

Installed CM2 to both Mac and VMWare PC and it works really well so far – just run the prints through the mimaki so we’ll see what the ACM does now…

Oo

[Owen Lees]

Right, looks like I am a bit of an impasse and need some help people please..

I have used Cutting Manager 2 to drop the crop marks on (Type 1, .3mm 20mm) on to the print.

Then when printed – make my contour path correctly (not moving the crop marks etc) and run the Graphtec through the automatic scan process.

The scan picks up the crops (took me a while to get that right) and sits the knife bang on the crop mark.

When I send the plot down thats when the fun starts!

Can anyone ‘please please’ help me out with the following questions?

1. How do you get the plot job to align correctly when you dont have the crop marks layer cutting (ie: the alignment of the rest of the job relative to the crops?) I have thus far put a dummy box touching the crop mark points but thats a real pain…

2. Do you measure the print or the file length and width when the acm has finished and wants to know if what is has is different to the file?

What I mean is that unless you have a rectangle enclosing the job you can’t know what the interior dimensions of the job with relation to the crop marks will be, hence my serious confusion!

Has anyone seen a decent work flow essay on this practice anywhere or perhaps steer me?

Soooo close to getting this right and I am sure that my 1 – 1.5mm defecit is down to this offset from the crops.

Oo

[Warren Beard]

Hi Owen

Why don’t you just cut the crop marks? That’s what I do as it makes the print job the exact same size as the contour cut, if you align the print in the cutter to the front right hand corner crop mark then in the cutting software auto align the contour cut file (with crop marks) into bottom right hand corner.

This should put your contours in the exact same place as the print (where the knife sits exactly over the bottom right crop mark)

Also make sure you feed it in to the printer the same way it is sending from the cutting software otherwise obviously it will cut upside down 🙄 :lol1:

Also make sure the cutting software reads the width of the media after you have loaded it so it knows how wide it is and then will know where the print is sitting.

I hope that makes sense, although I use different software to you it might all be the same process?

cheers

Warren

[Russell Huffer]

Hi Owen,

I use cutting master 2 with type 1 marks on my graphtec and do not have alignment issues.

Are you changing cutter to gpl from hpgl with a step of 0.1
cm2 will by default only cut what is selected but i sometimes select the whole lot then you can cut by colour using second tab in.

Also do not understand what your ref to acm means

Regards

Russell.

[Owen Lees]

Warren, thats what I used to do – and got the same results as now – its only about a 1mm over the print but the longer the print the bigger the issues.

Russel – Thats something I didnt try, I thought the cutter would actually cut the outlines in a way to save vinyl and ignore the placement of the other parts.

One small question – how do you know what the size of the artwork is between the crop marks? (Apart from measuring a box obviously!)

I’ll have a go with that and see…

ACM – Automatic Crop Mark (Sensor)

Oo

[Owen Lees]

Hi.

I’m convinced I am missing something here!

I just wrecked a print experimenting with settings, still can’t get past a fundamental point which has eluded me.

If I leave the crop marks in on the cut screen then the crop mark sensor will have the blade in the wrong position as the artwork will be something like 30mm offset from the edge of the crop marks (the x/y convergence of the crop mark being 30mm away from its edge).

Taking the crop marks away from the artwork allows the cut to start from what it thinks is the origin point – only then the artwork is cut according to where its placed in the cut screen (ie: to save vinyl – close as possible to the origin).

This is a rock and a hard place, the manual goes all the way through to this bit and then stops! So do the pdfs on Graphtec’s site (grrrr) – None of them actually mention how to set up Cutting Master to avoid the artwork cutting in the wrong place, tried with and without crop marks in as per Russell’s advice but as they are type 1 marks the offset is wrong.

Is there an offset somewhere to set up in the cutting master or the cutter to take this into account?

Cheers

Owen

[Owen Lees]

quote Warren Beard:

Hi Owen

Why don’t you just cut the crop marks? That’s what I do as it makes the print job the exact same size as the contour cut, if you align the print in the cutter to the front right hand corner crop mark then in the cutting software auto align the contour cut file (with crop marks) into bottom right hand corner.

This should put your contours in the exact same place as the print (where the knife sits exactly over the bottom right crop mark)

Also make sure you feed it in to the printer the same way it is sending from the cutting software otherwise obviously it will cut upside down 🙄 :lol1:

Also make sure the cutting software reads the width of the media after you have loaded it so it knows how wide it is and then will know where the print is sitting.

I hope that makes sense, although I use different software to you it might all be the same process?

cheers

Warren

Hi Warren

I’d agree — but — the sensor places the knife ‘exactly’ on the convergence of the x/y point… if you add the crop marks into the cutting solution then you will be the length of the crop marks out!

Oo

[Owen Lees]

This gets worse, I saw the bit on ‘use registration marks’ in the tuturial videos and now the contours are anything up to 15mm out… (not 20mm as that would be the crops I guess)

Going back to basics now as this is getting silly!

Is there a Graphtec UK phone support line or an engineer that anyone can reccomend that knows about this topic?

Oo

[Warren Beard]

Sorry Owen, must be the different set up’s then 😕

I cut on a Summa and when it aligns load the blade site directly above the front right crop mark, so I leave the crop marks on the cutting file and position the entire file in the bottom right corner and it cuts the crop mark that is under it as that is where it is on the screen.

As I did I think you will wonder what the problem ever was once you nail the first one :lol1:

good luck 😉

cheers

Warren

[Owen Lees]

Interestingly all the Graphtec tech notes barring one are using type 2 marks (ie: boundary marks rather than crop marks) which would make the cutting the crops feasable.

The power is off right now so I’ll have another go in the morning, just discovered an FC5100-130A in the plotter list and am wondering if this is for the 5100 with the laser eye on.. If I select it I get a ‘use crop marks’ option in Cutting Master which is allegedly supposed to auto find the crops….

**UPDATE**
I think the huge issue is with the axis origin offset using type 1 marks – mine is set to 0…

Oo

[Owen Lees]

It feels like a few months now since I posted that topic starter!

Success at last with the issues, I found out that my fc5100 just wouldnt play nicely with cutting master when using type 1 marks.

I switched to type 2 marks, made a small manual origin offset on the cutter and have now got the paths down to a satisfactory <.5mm accuracy which is gratifying to say the least!

Of course it helped when I discovered that I should be using the FC5100-130 A driver and not the std one….. ho hum!

Just cut a printed file of over 2.4 metres long and 1300 wide with no issues whatsoever and without any bleed on the text I was cutting (and parts of me were twitching when I was doing it) and it came out just fine.

Thanks to all those who were patient with me – its been a learning curve!

I am firmly converted to cutting from the Mac now – I just wish SL was available on the Mac, that would make my day complete 🙂

Oo