Digital printing set-up advice needed please!

[Mark Candlin]

Rob,
Sounds looks you got most of the bases covered there Rob.
A couple of things you might want to consider, depending on your budget and expected type of work.
(If you expect to get into producing exhibition prints and systems, pop-ups etc )

The first is a good cutter for trimming the prints. I reccomend both a mechanical and a hand cutter. The mechanical ones are great for trimming prints, especialy if you are gonna produce a lot of print. If a customer asks for say 100 posters, thats 400 cuts you gotta do.
A bench cutter is also worthwhile, its a long strip of ali with a knife attached and come in different lenghs, go for the biggest one if you can.Another tip is to get a cutting bench which is VERY level and flat with no slight bumps or dips as this will throw your straight edges out. A sheet of mdf thrown onto legs aint good enough.Its worth investing in a ready made cutting bench which is guaranteed flat.

Hope that helps.

Sticky Mark

[Robert Lambie]

some good pointers there mark, thank you very much.
the trimmers you are talking about. is this like the excaliber type trimmers?
the table i can have made from the metal fabricators next door to us. so that should be easy dealt with.. good pointer also. 😉
are you useing a large table mark? our own at the mo are 10ft by 4 foot it has a metal top in a single sheet. i was thinking on making the new one 60inches x 12 foot as i dont see single prints being any bigger unless a banner. the problem is i can get a sheet metal 12 foot long but not 60inch deep 😕

[fluidedge]

Hi Rob,

Like the idea of the pulley system, can you expand on that?

Our cadet will be at one end of the design studio (when decorated) next to the epson 9000.

Open ceiling with fans above so no nasty smells, not that we’ve really noticed any so far.

Carpet tiles seem favourite, easier to replace a bit after those little accidents.

Pub pool table in the middle of the studio with a metal cover for layout. Bigger workbenches elsewhere though.

After using the epson printing posters for a year now, slicing them up is a pain, we really have to look at a better method than steel ruler and scalpel.

[Robert Lambie]

Hi Chris
The pulley thing was my own idea but i think i may have seen something similar in a film or something that photographers used in a dark room while pictures dried.
My gran used to have this old pulley type clotheshorse in her kitchen.
It was a bit like a clotheshorse for drying but had a wheel that a thin rope runs on. The rope was tied to a hook on the wall.. If you unwound it from the hook and lifted it slowly the clothes come down from the ceiling on the clotheshorse. You then wound the rope back round the hook with the pulley in the lowered position to allow you to off-load the dry clothes and fold.
With this in mind i remember Rodney gold i think mentioning the curing time for solvent prints and that it is possible if rolled or pilled on top of each other they may stick a little over night and damage the print.
This got me thinking how i could store prints with my limited space.
The pulley idea was the answer.
I will make something similar that will have say 10 strips of wood? About 6 inches apart and 60inches wide because my prints are 54 inch wide.
Each strip of wood will have a row of tight gripping clip-pegs.
If i print something say ten foot long x 54 inch wide i basically unwind my rope. Down from the ceiling comes the pulley. I clip the clips along the top of the print and i pull back on the rope, up goes the print to the ceiling suspending the vinyl to hang dry until the next day.
If i have ten bars/strips on my pulley i can suspend ten prints next to each other and free from any harm. The pulley will be in next to a wall so want get in the road at all…
I had thought about using a standing horse type thing that i would just drape the prints over. This would not work on prints at 10 foot long and it would also cause a sort of fold in the vinyl with its own Waite over night.
Not only would this take up more space I would imagine this to later cause bother when laminating.

[Rodney Gold]

HIya Robert
Carpets are a bad idea , the problem is that they attract dust , and dust is a killer for digital prints , the vinyl is often charged and you need to wind it off the roll before printing and this attracts dust. Carpets build up static and you often can get a shock or mess with the machine by merely touching it.
The fans as well need to be filtered or you need ionized air or use a grounded carbon brush strip on your machine prior to the printing section. Be very careful when circulating air , dust on prints causes fisheyeing and dust on tacky prints messes with laminating and makes em look dreadful.
The drying room needs venting too if using solvents.
A bigger problem is nursemaiding your prints as they come off the machine , 3-4m long prints can fold on themselves and we actually havent found a suitable system for this , I tried pulleys etc but the tension on the vinyl messed with printing. Most likely the best is a roll feed take up system but this requires an extra drier as the prints arent absolutely dry on output.
We gave up on the pulley type drier hanging system after we lost 6 large prints when they banged into each other , we could most likely have refined it , but just decided to string lines in our other premises across the road and take the prints there (Our laminator is there) , folding prints over the lines is not much of a problem , the fold dissapears quite quickly and hasnt given us trouble when laminating.
Space is what you need big time , for trimming applying etc. A nice wide rotary trimmer is is ideal. We use long straight edges in combination with a printed edge to trim long long stuff. Bear in mind the prints do not go straight thru the printer , they skew a teeny bit , so using an edge of the media as a reference doesnt always work. You also need as much space in front as behind for a laminator and flat tables either side , the flat tables arent essential , but space is.
You wont need a sink in the print room , ink spills etc wont clean with water.

What you should stock

Well firstly cartridges , and DONT buy a full set cos you you use far more magenta than anything else , about 4 carts of those to 2 of yellow and 2 of cyan , the rest almost last forever especially the light cyan and light magenta.
You will most likely use far more white vinyl than anything else and next would probably be banner or mesh , then clear vinyls but this depends on applications and direction you go.
What I would suggest is NOT to be hung up on the traditional vinyls/bnanner and get the local reps of digital print materials to call round , some of these specialised materials work better and are cheaper and more suitable than the traditional stuff , come in the right rool sizes and are clean wound under constant tension and have less plasticisers etc.
Environmental conditions play a big part as to drying times and consistency of print as well as how materials react. Printing in warm dry conditions is a recipe for success and apart from that , storing media under those conditions is too. Some of the backings absorb moisture etc so storing in damp and cold and then printing leads to banding , vinyl creep when cutting , cockling of the media as it hits the heated section (and thus head strikes) etc etc. Store the media in the same room as the printer and put in heaters if possible if the workshop tends to dampnenss.
You are actually going to need a print minder , someone to load the machine , start it , see the print is going ok etc. I would suggest using a cheap puter as a “server” , the printer itself is a network printer and you are really going to need a real fast puter to do the graphics and the rips , 120gb hds are the bare minimum , some eps files and the print files can be 5gigs or more. Waiting 1/2 ans hour for a rip is a waste of time.
The best strategy is to rip only and then queue the print on a puter right by the printer , IE dont send the rip file directly to the printer , but to a subsidary puter. This means the operator by the machine can start prints as needed and the designer doesnt have to run to the printer all the time or press the button. Rather split big files into smaller segments , for eaxample dont try print and cut 20 000 decals , do 500 at a time. Basically the other puter at the printer doesnt have to be potent , but just have a lot of storage. The design puter must be at least a 2.4 gig p4 or better with 1 gig ram and a fast graphics card is worth while. If you are spending the big money on a machine , get a matching puter. Best way is to go thru a switched hub.
ALWAYS print the job and rip settings info with any job , store it with the job too otherwise you will never get it right on repeats.

[Robert Lambie]

thanks a million rodney.. very imformative reply as ever mate..
ill come back to this one tonight or tommorrow with some more questions.. 😉
this helps me tons guys. thank you 😛

[Kevin Flowers]

Robert
this may be a bit high tech but is possible, if your pulley system was configured with a servo motor timer and magic eye system, you could basically set up a system that will take up the slack as it comes off the printer. The magic eye would be set just above floor level, when the eye was tripped by the draping vinyl, the timer would activate the motor for a set time. The reason for a servo motor is that it may be that it only needs to make a quarter of a turn etc and a servo is more capable of this than a standard motor. The timer would be adjustable and run fractions of a second allowing alterations for print speed. A top eye could also be used so as to stop the system pulling tight, although if the timerwas set correctly this would not happen.
If i manage to get time maybe i’ll take a bash at drawing it up

Kev

[richard clark]

Question?

Is your pulley system to help the prints dry, or to help remove the solvents??

If it is to dry the prints. then shouldn’t this be the job of the printer?

If it is to remove solvents, then your system is flawed. Solvents need to dro out of the material, which means you need to ‘hang’ it out to dry. For this you need build a hanging booth where the material is hung not by its length but by its width. So the material has to hang by its short egde. This creates its own problem regarding space.

Otherwise, good luck. If you need anynore advice, please ask me

Richard Clark

[Robert Lambie]

Hi Richard
The pulley system is basically to hold large prints that have just been printed.
They will be true solvent prints so I would like to leave them overnight before laminating them, to allow for any gases to be released.
The prints will be completely dry once printed.
Like I have said. I am new to this, any further advice is appreciated.
A pulley system running the length of the prints would not be a problem to have made.
Please explain the down side of vertical hanging one.

[Rodney Gold]

Richard , full ink coverages at 1440 dpi on non porous media are generally not dry to the touch on output , especially if environmental conditions are cold etc. Some of the big inkjet printers that do 360 dpi low ink coverage can have a roll to roll system due to their heating strategy and the fact that their ink coverage IS low , but generally print drying is an issue with just about any inkjet. You can add a further post print dryer , which is basically a heated large area platen the print runs over when output , and then you can add a roll to roll system. If the print WAS totally dry on output then there would be no need to further dry it for solvent release as all volatiles would be “gone”
I run the same machine that robert is purchasing , albeit he is running a full solvent inkset and Im running an eco solvent (milder) inkset. Apart from solvents , there are other volatiles in the substrates themselves where it’s advisable to allow some sort of “curing” time before working with the graphic(like plasticisers)
We run clotheslines and fold the print graphic side out over them with no problems at all. Generally I like to leave the graphics for a few hours in hot weather or overnight in cold before further postprocessing for safety sake.
A lot depends on the substrate itself if you indeed need to let it “cure” , matt papers or matt backlits , vellums and so forth actually are instantly handleable. Printing on stuff like 1mm Styrene or ABS means that the inks are generally pretty wet after a print and need very careful handling till all the volatiles in them evaporate. Im not sure what you mean by solvents have to dro (drop?) out? They evaporate afaik.

[richard clark]

Hi guys,

Further to my previous message, I seemd to lose the letter ‘p’ from the word drop.

Once you have printed onto s/a vinyl using a solvent printer, you need to hang the prints out. As mentioned previously, this allows the solvents to drop out of the vinyl. The reason – solvents are heavier than air, and will not just evaporate. If you laid a printed piece of vinyl on your bench overnight the solvents would remain. The same is true if you hang the vinyl so it drops lengthways. The only way to quickly and effectively remove solvents from the mateial prior to lamination or application is to hang it along the length so the solvents quickly drop out of the bottom.

The ideal thing to do is build an enclosed booth with an extraction fan to remove the solvents.

In my experience, the main reason for failiure in respect of vehicle wraps etc. is because the manufacturer of the printed graphic has not removed the solvents before application.

[Robert Lambie]

Thanks for getting back Richard..
I understand what you say & I will make the amendments to my pulley design to hang the prints on their side.
Regarding the vents. The ones I have are now in position. They are only small, about 12 inchesdiameter . Setting them up with a filter wont be a problem, ill do that.
They will be hung to dry in the same room the printing is done.
The second linking room will also have its own filtered fan about 12-inch diameter. This is were computer & prep work will be done.
The third and largest room will be vinyl production and preparation. Again this room has 2 12-inch fans either end of room.

Regarding lamination, what would the best all round laminator be for me? Hot/cold or cold. my printer is 54inch wide but should I be looking for lamination much wider. The one I have been quoted on is 60inch & 65 inch wide.
I guess hot/cold would be best but do I really need hot if it is better to cold laminate vinyl prints, as this will be what I will laminate the most.

thanks in advance for any help guys 😉

[Rodney Gold]

Robert , a hot laminator is a waste of money for vinyls , you actually cant hot lam them at all (well there is one lam you can use , called micronex which melts a layer on the vinyl at lower temps than hot lam uses . a speciality film for very abusive environments).
A cold pressure lam and mounter will take care of just about all your needs unless you are going to do paper or want to do contract lamination (or deal with aunty agatha that comes in with her grandsons a4 drawing and wants it lammed)
Whatever you do , dont be tempted to get a laminator that uses the same rollers for hot and cold , these sound great but in practice , they suck mostly as you have to wait for rollers to heat up and cool down to use it with the other material and the webbing changes are a nightmare and will waste tons of lam (webbing is loading the material and carriers up and getting it advanced to start etc)
Get a laminator bigger than your biggest graphic , you wont be sorry.
Lamination is actually worse than digital printing , problem wise. If you cheap out on a laminator , you will have all sots of problems like washboarding , boat wakes , rucking , reverse curls ,delamination etc etc
For cold lams , you need a machine that has potent and even rollers and is semi automated and must apply constant tensions etc , must have foot controls , variable pressure and a decent throat aperture for mounting. A hand operated washing machine mangle won’t cut it:)
Dont buy a lam unless the salesguy demonstrates it on a BIG graphic , like full width and 3m long , and it looks 100%. The lam guys must train you too in what lams to use , and how to use your machine to its fullest.
Dont be swayed by claims that you can do 2 operations in one , like both laminating and mounting at the same time , one at a time works best.
There is more you can do with a cold pressure lam than just overcoating.
You can actually apply double sided adhesive to anything , IE make any substrate self adhesive with a carrier or apply any self adhesive substrate to any other substrate (we lam dry photo resists to large sheets of stainless etc for the local etching cos , make formica self adhesive and laser cut lettering out of it , apply double sided adhesives to large sheets of brass for our Cncs to keep em on the sacrificial bed , apply crysal clear double sided adhesive lams to the front of printed graphics for inside window mounting etc etc.)
Buy a “big” name laminator , something thats well known , well developed and prefereably from a co that also does the films , make it condition that they give you a lot of rolls on the initial purchase to do samples and trials with.
Some laminators , due to their design , will cost you a lot more in terms of wastage due to the way they are webbed and the initial amount you have to advance films to start the lam , ask the rep about this , often you lam a 1m long job and can use 2m of lam , cold pressure lam is not cheap (compared to hot).
Thing is , poor lam can ruin a VERY expensive print , so I repeat , it’s not worth cheaping out in this dept.
With the Soljets ability to print , lam and then reload to cut , lamination becomes a really viable option and albeit initially seems a schlep , you will soon pick up business cos you CAN die cut lammed stuff.
I generally lam after the prints are handlable , ie no tackyness and bone dry and have had no problems at all with delaminations etc , even with stuff used in roll up displays etc etc.
There is an issue you are going to face with your printer that only lam will solve , and that is print “shrinkage”
When die cutting a full printed graphic. What happens is that you lets say print a small sticker with a red background and then cut it on the print (you generally leave a little bleed when doing so) , a few days or even hours later you will discover the decal has “shrunk” and the edges are curling , this has to do with the inks and solvents and how they react with the vinyls and can make the decal impossible to apply. You can cure this 2 ways , either by immediatley applying application tape to the cut decals (makes it easier for the customer to apply) or overlamming and cutting thru the lam.

[Mark Candlin]

Rob,

I agree with Rodney when he says that lamination is more difficult than the printing side of things. It can be a right PIG. Be prepared to waste a lot of print at the start, its not as easy as it looks. The amount of times we have fed a 3 meter print in only for it to mess up half a metere in, in the bin it goes and another re-print.

If you can afford it go for a heated top and bottom rollers as it means you can do encapsulation if needed. Again it depends if you want to break into the exhibition or POS side of things.

The vinyl wrap system I use from Graphtyp is better on application if the bottom roller is very hot when laminated. It changes the glue structure so that the vinyl is easier to handle, you can re-position the graphic if needed.

It also does not leave any glue behind when you remove the vinyl at a latter date.