Customer using part of our design in their new sign.

[Martyn Heath]

Im only guessing but i think if your lucky and the customer gets wobbly from you contacting them you may be able to get your design time out of them?
Its a hard one, especially if they have changed the design dramatically but clearly used yours as a base.

I would personally send them an invoice for the design and go from there.

[Phill Fenton]

Whilst you have my sympathy, and I share your frustration, I have to question why you are doing speculative design work free of charge? Surely your time is better spent designing for paying customers.

Are we the only industry that provides free artwork? Many is that time I have heard from an enquirer "I’m looking for ideas from you". The answer should be "Yeah right – only if you’re prepared to pay me for my design skills and effort".

There’s too much of this going on – we are shooting ourselves in the feet. The customer is the winner while sign businesses struggle to win sales at any cost.

I should say I’m guilty of the same during quiet times, but it still irks me :awkward:

In an ideal world no one should be producing speculative layouts – but we all know that doesn’t happen.

Sorry if this sounds harsh – you do have my sympathy honest..

[Peter Johnson]

As you have said, you own the IP rights to the design. It is not legal to use somebody else’s design/logo by simply changing a font or a colour and then passing it off as their own design.

Quotes taken directly from the gov.uk IP page;

"Using someone’s trade mark, patent, copyright or design without their permission is known as ‘IP infringement’ and could lead to a fine, prison or both."

"To use a registered design you must contact the current owner and either agree a licence to use the design or buy it from them."

I’d check these pages out to use in any further communication with the other company to unsettle them and make them think about the legality of their actions.

UK government IP pages

[Colin Crabb]

quote :

The act of copying or adapting someone else’s work is a restricted act. Any adaptation will be legally regarded as a derived work; so if you simply adapt the work of others, it will still be their work, and they have every right to object you if publish such a work when they have not given you permission to do so. They are also entitled to reclaim any money you make from selling their work.
The only safe option is to create something that is not copied or adapted from the work of others, or seek the permission of the rights owner (you should expect to pay a fee and/or royalties for this).
There is nothing to stop you being inspired by the work of others, but when it comes to your own work, start with a blank sheet and do not try to copy what others have done.

[David Hammond]

I’m glad my post has had a desired effect: :claps:

Firstly, I too will ask the same question as Phil… WHY?

We quoted a £2000+ for a coach livery, the price was accepted we started the design process, but the MD was rather indecisive, and rang up to tell me "I’ve 4 other companies looking at this"… I bit my tongue, and a polite e-mail was sent and we’ve heard nothing since.

Would the coach company send a coach to Alton Towers to pick up a group, knowing they had 4 other companies doing the same and the first one to arrive got the job? I think not.

Sell the deposit/artwork as a benefit to the customer – It keeps prices lower as they’re only paying for the time you spend on their work, rather than covering the time lost from time wasters. It does provide a much better level of service as you can concentrate on those ‘confirmed’ jobs, rather than prospective work.

Back to your original question!

Your graphic designer has designed that, and as such you’re correct your company holds the copyright. You have sustained a financial loss, in that you have not been paid for the time.

I assume you would allow continued use of their logo, and you would charge £xxx for this privilege, again look at what ‘others’ charge for releasing all IP on a logo.

If it goes as far as court you can present the PDF proof you sent, and demonstrate it was password protected.

Take pictures of the sign, and anything that uses the logo, social media (include number of followers), website, menu’s, posters, vehicles, ANYTHING!

The last two are important – If it goes to court, they will demonstrate flagrancy (removing the password, especially if there’s a notice on it), the photo’s to demonstrate the prominence of it’s use, which could see the judge award uplifts in damages.

I suspect they will likely claim it was another sign maker who did it, IMHO that is not your concern, and it will be up to them to commence proceedings for their loss against the sign company they did use.

Bear in mind, court should be the last resort.

A letter explaining what act’s they’ve broken, your claim to the copyright, and what damages and costs you seek should be sent, providing time to pay. It probably wouldn’t do any harm to include links to this site and our case to prove there’s a real consequence. It may shake them up into paying.

[Mike Rawlings]

Cheers folks. It’s good to get opinions and experience from people in the same industry.
In answer to the ‘why are we doing design proofs’, for me it’s a selling tool. It shows the customer what the finished item will look like. We don’t do it for every single job as that’d consume too much of our time but for those jobs which we deem ‘worth it’ then it’ll get a proof.

Again, thank you for taking the time to respond. It’s a subject which has reared it’s head with us here a few times as people bring in proofs from other companies and say "how much for this" which is met with a suitably short reply…

Waiting on a response and will update when I know more.

[Hugh Potter]

I’ve had similar, I generally invoice the cost of the design time and any consultation appointment / meetings time too. They usually protest but I’ve never had anyone not pay when we threaten court action, stating that it is clear on our proofs that this artwork is not to be shared or used without consent, any unauthorised use of the logo, design or layout, in full or in part, is subject to a copyright release fee of £200 plus all the time accrued on said job @ £40 p/h.

Only one has really tried to bump us for it but once they got the signed for letter stating 7 days to pay before we add interest and take it further they settled right away. I don’t like doing it, but I also don’t like customers taking away my time when we’ve done a rough draft, or completed design in order to get the job.

I know we shouldn’t do artwork up front but sometimes it’s necessary in order o show the customer an idea of what they’ll get, and sell the job to them.

[David Hammond]

I must admit, we do play it by ear, and don’t enforce the deposit to every customer. We do get it wrong like the example above.

In fairness even if we produce the design prior to a deposit, we certainly take one before we order anything. Of if a credit account holder it’s a Purchase order, or signed order.

I’ve put together some PDF’s with images of van’s we’ve done, also the types of signs we’ve installed which we can e-mail to customers. If meeting on site we’ve a 10" tablet to show customers, from there we can establish a budget and get a thorough idea of what they’d like. It also builds confidence that you’re good at your job :thumbsup:

[Jon Marshall]

If you have the copyright notice on your design they can’t really have any argument when you invoice them for it. I would take a photo of the sign and show it alongside your design with the invoice pointing out the coped area and quoting the relevant laws

[Mike Rawlings]

Well… that was entirely uneventful and resolved quickly. After sending the email I got a reply back that the customer is removing the logo from their sign. As we pass it quite often it’s easy enough to check.

Good point re: the van graphics and having a selection of designs. That’s one of the main type of people we get showing us proofs from another company, someone after van graphics.
Normally it’s a semi screwed up paper proof handed over with the words, "I want my van done. How much for this? These blokes want (insert ridiculously low price) for doing it".
99% of the time I just tell them that we can’t even buy the correct vinyl at the price they’re telling me.
I dont doubt ‘other company’ is doing it for that price, but it won’t last long and we’re not prepared to put our name to crappy work.

Thank you all once again. I’m going to tighten up the disclaimer / t&c section of our proofs a bit more too.

[David Hammond]

BTW it may be worth Rasterising your artwork before PDF’ing the file, so if they do get into it, it’s next to useless as it’s just a photo :thumbsup:

[Paul Hodges]

We stopped supplying design work before getting the actual job, years ago. As a general rule, if you ask for a payment up front just for the proofing, people who genuinely intend to give you the job and just want it sorted, pay up without batting an eyelid. The ones who are not happy to pay that fee up front, are the ones who want to hawk your design around everywhere to get the best price.

We’re always saying on here about bad customer experiences, and this perfectly sums it up because the customers none of us wants, are the ones who don’t really want to commit to giving you the work, they want you to do all the leg work and the running, then they decide if they want to give you the job, and you end up wasting your time.

A simple up front payment will always separate the good customers from the bad customers, especially for non account customers.

[Jon Marshall]

I usually do a screen grab and save as jpeg for anyone I think is a bit suspect..