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CSCS card – could soon be compulsory to have one?
I was just wondering how many signmakers have a CSCS card – either themselves or someone within their company?
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82 Replies
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I’ve got a Matalan card, does that help?
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:lol1: :lol1:
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don’t know what is Phill 🙄
Lynn
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I don’t, but Geoff does coz he subcontracts to a double-glazing company.
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CSCS stands for construction skills certification scheme. Any one working on a building site must have a CSCS card this includes signmakers who may be installing signs. Many invitations to tender for sign work also require the sign installers to have a CSCS card and the need to have this card seems to be spreading. My fear is that eventually the small signmaker may no longer be allowed to install a sign anywhere without one.
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Phill, why dont you gear your pricing profits structure on the supply/manufacturing of any signs and let the customer decide whos putting them up, after all wouldn’t you rather be in your shop making signs for a good profit rather than being up a ladder on a windswept muddy construction site ?
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Phil,
Is a CSC card the same as a CIS card which is the Construction Industry Scheme card if it is we have one in our company. The CIS card replaced the SC60 card and has been around for about 5 years. The Inland Revenue are changing the Construction Industry Scheme in April 2007 (its suppose to have been April 2006 but they weren’t ready to launch the new scheme, you might have heard all the adverts on the radio publicising the new scheme but it didn’t happen).
If you want to find out anymore I’ll bore the socks off you because I have to deal with this scheme all the time.
Jacqui
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The BSGA spent quite a while working with the CSCS card people to get the trade of Sign Installer recognised and added to the list of accredited card holders.
It’s used by a lot of the Main Contractors we deal with (Bovis, AMEC Wates etc etc) to such an extent that everyone in the firm who goes to a site have had to get a card (by paying £30 & taking a Health & Safety test). As the Government have a vested interest in the system I can see a time in the not too distant future where not having a CSCS card is going to become an obstacle in securing manufacture & install business.
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Jacqui,
The CSCS card and CIS card are two separate items.
We have been asked on several occasions now for a CIS card, however, when both our Book Keeper and I investigated this with the IR, we were told that the Sign Industry is exempt from this!
Chris
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Hi
from what i understand
CIS card is to do with the Taxation side for tradesmen
& the
CSCS card is to say that you are compotent to work on a site
(re Healt & Satey matters)Kev
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i know these things are/will become a pain in the rear, but…
as more and more cowboys rear their heads these days, i think this might be a small blessing in disguise. at the end of the day it is only £30 and a bit of time with h&s assessment etc its an inconvenience for the good sign makers of today, but a much bigger one for Joe bloggs trying to undercut you with a dodgy fitted inferior sign. -
Do we really need yet more regulation in this country? We are far to over regulated as it is without yet more creeping in. After all , how difficult is it to actually fit a sign ( in most cases not difficult at all)? Yet if these requirements spread (as they look likely to do ) only those with CSCS cards will be allowed to supply and fit any sign in future – not just those on building sites. That is my worry.
A couple of years ago I could have obtained my CSCS card by signing myself off as a competent person due to my experience in the industry. Now the goal posts have moved and only those who already have cards can renew them. Newcomers and those who failed to get their cards a couple of years ago will have to jump through more and more hoops to obtain their cards and stay in business – newcomers will not have a chance . This should concern us all as I see from the vote very few actually have these cards already!!
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quote Phill:This should concern us all as I see from the vote very few actually have these cards already!!
Probably concern us more when it becomes a problem (mind you, for £30 and a H & S test I will probably look at it this week).
It’s no different to the IPAF licence tho Phil, how many here operate MEWPS (access platforms, cherry pickers call it what you like) without the proper licence?. We have 3 here (including me) who have their licence, but then again we also have 2 of our own van mounted cherry pickers. Saying that, our licences only cover Van Mounted (upto 26 mtr) and trailer mounted, so if we hire in a self propelled our licence is invalid for that category!
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Thought you guys might like to have a copy of a letter that was sent to all BSGA members – they are happy for me to put a copy onto uksignboards…I hope it doesn’t break any of the boards rules but I’m sure you’ll let me know if it does
TO ALL BSGA MEMBERS
Dear Colleague
CSCS Cards for Sign Installers
I am pleased to tell you that after lengthy negotiations with CSCS Product Services the BSGA has reached an agreement with the CITB concerning the criteria which must be met by sign installers if they are to gain a CSCS Card.
The key outcome of our discussions with the CITB and CSCS Product Services is that sign installers will now be able to obtain a CSCS Green Card by the unit certification route. This requires that candidates, in addition to completing the CITB health and safety test with ten additional questions relating to working at heights, must complete two designated units from the S/NVQ Level 2.
The units from the S/NVQ Level 2, which must be completed if applicants are to obtain the CSCS Green Card, are:
• Mandatory Unit 2.01: Meet Safety, Health and Environmental Requirements in the Workplace
• Optional Unit 2.18: Carry Out Installation Operation for Signage OperationsAs was the case under the Industry Accreditation Scheme, which closed on 15th April 2005, cards will be available in two categories: Sign Installer (Illuminated) and Sign Installer (Non-illuminated).
You will see from the attached Revised Instructions to Open, dated 10th April 2006 and issued by CSCS Product Services, the following CSCS Cards are also available to sign installers:
Trainee (Red) Card
Trainees can apply for a CSCS Red Card, which allows them access to sites if accompanied by a CSCS Card holder, when they have met the CITB heath and safety requirements and registered for the Signmaking S/NVQ. The health and safety requirements can be fulfilled either, by taking the CITB health and safety test or by completing a health and safety course.
Experienced Worker (Blue) Card
The Experienced Worker Card will be available to sign installers however; these cards are valid for only three years and are not renewable. After the three years applicants must have completed the required units from the S/NVQ Level 2 and apply for a Green Card or the S/NVQ Level 3 to apply for a Gold Card.
Skilled Worker (Gold) Card
To obtain a CSCS Gold Card, which is for Team Leaders, applicants will be required to complete an S/NVQ at Level 3 and the CITB health and safety test.
The original CSCS Blue Card for skilled workers will no longer be available to sign installers. Anyone currently holding a CSCS Blue Card, obtained through the Industry Accreditation Scheme, will be issued with a Green Card when they apply to have their card renewed.
To apply for a CSCS Card you need to:
• Contact the CSCS Helpdesk on 0870 4178777 to request an application pack.
• Register with for the S/NVQ with your nearest college or accredited centre which offers S/NVQs in Signmaking. Contact details for all colleges and accredited centres can be found in the Members Directory on the BSGA web site http://www.bsga.co.uk
• Complete the CITB health and safety test. Some of the colleges offer this facility however, if they don’t they will be able to tell how to arrange the test appointment.
• Complete the required units from the S/NVQ in Signmaking and apply for the card.We have asked all colleges and accredited centres to confirm that they will be prepared to accept candidates, wishing to register for the specified units from the S/NVQ Level 2, as a requirement for obtaining their CSCS Green Card. We have also asked if they will be prepared to carry out the assessments required for completion of the two specified units on site. When we have received feedback from the colleges and accredited centres I will let you know.
Finally, should you have any questions or queries about CSCS Cards for sign installers please do not hesitate to contact me.
Best regards
Yours sincerely
Albert W Baxter
DirectorFor further information on the CSCS Card scheme or to obtain an application pack please contact the CSCS Helpdesk on 0870 4178777 or visit http://www.cscs.uk.com
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Hi
spent today trying to find out about the CSCS card & what is required to get it. Spoke with the CSCS help desk who couldn’t tell me where i can sign up to get the S/NVQ 2 required which includes onsite assessment. They put me intouch with the CITB who spent 1 1/2 hours searching there lists for somewhere and came up blank in my area. They could only suggest going back to the CSCS & suggest a different approach.I have also recieved a BSGA news letter with a magazine today in regards to the CSCS the following is a quote from it
"the British Sign & Graphics Association made representations on behalf of the sign industry to clarify the situation. As a result of these negotiations we have reached an agreement with the CITB concerning the criteria which must be met by sign installers if they areto recieve a CSCS card. We would also , respectfully point out that we were the only trade association representing the interests of the sign makers in this matter and we are the only association that can provide sign makers with assistance in obtaining the new card.
My first thought is who appointed this assosiation to represent signmakers who are not there members, i represent my own company. If i need a CSCS card as an associate of the building trade then i only need to do the Health & Safety & possibly working at heights to get it. I don’t need an NVQ for it. How many members on this site started there sign company with NVQ qualifications or have them now. Colleges that teach these courses seem to be few & far between so what are the charges and waiting lists going to be to achieve this qualification. Just so that i can go onto a building site & install safety signs which basically make the site safer. The second highlighted point in my opion speaks for itself.
These are my thoughts an opions & apart from looking into joining the BSGA and deciding it was’t for my company. So please make your own mind up as these disscussions that the self appointed agents of the entire british sign making industry are about to come & bite a lot of us on the arse."Just my thoughts"
Kev
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Sat the CSCS in a wee bus….. more general H&S then IPAF and PASMA BTW 😀
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Sorry folks, Chris is completely right in his reply to my thread, I got the wrong end of the stick, after reading all the following threads re. the CSC card is completely different than the CIS card.
Like Kev I looked into what colleges in my area do the NVQ 2 required to obtain the CSC card and there are none except travelling up to London which I don’t fancy doing.
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I’m right to be a bit worried about this development then 🙁
The federation of small business actively lobby the government to try and reduce red tape and legislation. The BSGA would do well to follow suit (rather than actively encouraging more red tape and legislation) if they wish to act in the best interest of all signmakers in the UK 😕
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quote Phill:I’m right to be a bit worried about this development then 🙁
The federation of small business actively lobby the government to try and reduce red tape and legislation. The BSGA would do well to follow suit (rather than actively encouraging more red tape and legislation) if they wish to act in the best interest of all signmakers in the UK 😕
If it becomes a big issue (as you believe it will Phill) then we can push the FSB to lobby against this on our behalf, however, this would come across a lot stronger from a group of us rather that as individuals.
It would also be use full to go armed with examples of how this has effected our industry. John Walker at the FSB is the Policy Chairman and it just so happens I am meeting with him on the 29th of this month.
Give me the ammo, I’ll set the ball rolling if we have concrete facts!
Chris
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Chris
i spoke to the CSCS help desk who could not advise me of anywhere in my area who could carryout the on site assessment, they then put me onto the CITB who where very helpful and searched for 1 1/2 hours for places who could carryout this assessment and found no where. The approximate costs mentioned per person for the S/NVQ with the on site assessment was approx £450.00 per person. I must say the H&S test would be no problem to book & both the CSCS helpdesk & CITB went out of the way to sort this matter and i’m going to place another call to the help desk tomorrow with the suggestions that CITB advised me to mention.I think both of the above points are valid points to raise, maybe better explained below. Sorry but not the best at putting my views in writing.
1/ Required qualifications which seem impossible to get locally if at all
2/ Cost, being the second in that unless you do a lot of site jobs you are going to be out of pocket. Example If you are going to do a shop front whilst a shop is being refurbished & is classed as a building site you are going to have to charge more to do the job to cover the cost of being CSCS registered, but if you wait till the builders leave you don’t have to worry about the CSCS card yet you are doing exactly the same job & if you are a bonified company you are adhering to the H&S rules as you would if it was still a building site. Obviously time lines wont always allow this but i bet a developer won’t want to have to pay the additional costs. Another example being I place H&S site boards on building sites a few times a year. If i Pay for the CSCS training i would be into next year before these jobs would be profitable but the jobs need to be carried out or i would lose other work for the same company that doesn’t require the card again the company will not want pay anything extra. As signmakers we work in varied fields of different industries to impose costs in one particular area pushes the small signmaker out of that area giving the larger companies the edge because they cover a wider area of sites and can absorb the costs.I don’t Know what other members views are maybe some will take the time to post
Kev
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Only last week I had to decline to tender for work because I do not hold a CSCS card. I could easily have provided the products and services required but could not comply with all the requirements in the tender document which included the need to have a CSCS card.
I suddenly find myself excluded from competing for certain jobs due to not holding a piece of paper which deems to provide proof of my competence to be able to do a job safely (even though I have never suffered any accident or injury or injured any third party in all the ten years I have spent of doing this very type of work) !!
Maybe the monopolies commision should be called upon to investigate this as I do beleive it constitutes unfair trading!
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Phil
the problem isn’t the healt & safety aspect, because whatever trade you are in health & safety accompanies it. The cost for the H&S is £17.00 i believe its the s/NVQ that is the problem they want us to learn what we already know & some of it as nothing to do with site work. Check out the link
http://www.bsga.co.uk/education/ovlvl2.htmland i’m sure you’ll notice who’s site, not that, that is a problem and for new people coming in to the trade fair enough but enforcing this on people who have been in the trade & associciated trades for years
Kev
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I’m not claiming to know all the answers but let me try and put a few of the facts as they have been presented to me.
CSCS has been in existence for over 10 years. It was started to help the construction industry get quality up, accidents down and cowboy builders out. At present the government is committed to driving the cowboys out of the construction industry and raising standards of both workmanship and health and safety.
Many influential bodies are working towards a policy of a fully qualified workforce by 2010 when it will be compulsory to prove workers skills and qualifications before they can work on site.
It is supported by organisations such as the Major Contractors Group (MCG), National Contractors Federation (NCF), Major Home Builders Group (MHBG) and Civil Engineering Contractors Association (CECA).
Major clients are also requesting that their contractors have a CSCS carded workforce. These include government, housing associations, NHS projects and private clients such as BAA.
The BSGA got involved some 3 years ago when a number of its members couldn’t gain access to sites and had no way of gaining a CSCS card because there was no system in place. Rather than having their hand forced where all sign makers (what ever their experience) would sit through a full NVQ, the BSGA lobbied for a reduced qualification level and managed to get it.
There are now 230 occupations covered by the CSCS card system and I’d bet most of the people in those occupations feel that they know their jobs inside out, but have still had to go through this process to allow them on site.
If you want to be pointed in the right direction for a college offering NVQ’s I’d call the BSGA for advice, you don’t need to be a member. (External verification is available from some colleges but this is down to each colleges own discretion).
I’ll leave you with this thought…and please don’t shoot the messenger…
We are all supposed to do Risk Assessments for our place of work, including every job we undertake, on or off site. We are often asked to provide method statements for the way we carry work out. If we use powered access equipment we should have a Powered Access Licence (IPAF)….the CSCS card is another hurdle for those companies that want to do this type of work.
If you can’t get or don’t want to go down the qualification route look at subcontracting your fitting work out; there are literally hundreds of fitters out there that would be happy to fit your work at very reasonable hourly rates. (why not get a list of qualified fitters on this website?) -
Just a short note only on this because it has been discussed at length before. I used to run the BSGA NVQ2 course at my local college. As such we had to attend annual conferences and the CSCS card subject was first mentioned over 5 years ago by Peter Tipton the then director of BSGA. The H&S unit its self is quite detailed and for a one man band to obtain without registering with an accredited center is impossible, the reason being is that on site assessment has to be done, who would do that?… because it can only be assessed by a trade specific person with a least 5 years experience (set by QCA), and further more the assessment process has to be intenally verified (a process of quality control) this process can only be done by someone holding D32/33/34 assessor and verifier certs’ (now Vunits) again who would do that and further to that ALL work has to be externally verified a job that I believe is still being done by Peter Tipton for the BSGA as the awarding body. It would also involve producing a portfolio of work (theory) to support the application for unit award. Some have mentioned that accredited centers are few and far between, this is mainly down to the fact that in some areas of the country colleges/centers have been poorly supported by the local industry and due to lack of students have had to close the courses. I know of 4 centers that have closed sign courses in the last year or so. It is only now when somthing like the CSCS scheme comes along that that requires a qualification to achieve it that people end up in a flat spin trying to find somewhere to do so, or they may lose work/money. If its any consolation to anyone I didnt apply for my card under the grandfather rights/experienced route so am in the same boat as most of you, now how stupid is that.
One more thought on this is that Walsall college and possibly Sheffield and others are activly using E learning (on line learning) so that may be a possibility for some that live a distance fron a center. They would then arrange the assessments and verifications. mind you everything has a cost so sit down when you ask what the fees are.
Did I say short note :lol1: -
I’ve spoken to Walsal College today after being pointed in their direction from the BSGA. They have quoted for me to do the portion of the S/NVQ with on site assesment to be able to get the CSCS card would cost approx £2500 + milage expenses (i’m in London they’re in the Midlands), it will cost the same if a company with 5 employees want to do it also.
I may only work on building sites 2-3 times a year if i have to pay the above i will be working for nothing, the problem being is that the work is just a portion of work i do for a large company. So if i can’t do that & they find a company that can i will then stand a chance to lose the rest of the work as a result. So this will not just affect me working on building sites but my general business as well.
Kev
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This whole thing stinks!!
A situation has been created whereby a select group of individuals and companies have been given an unfair advantage over many others by virtue of the fact they have been kept informed about the lobbying and negotiating that has been going on in the background making it nessessary to gain CSCS before the doors were closed to everyone. Let us not forget that anyone who was in the business of installing signs could certify themselves by the "Grandfather rights/experienced route" . This option was allowed for a limited period of time to allow "those in the know" to do just that.
There are some very devious and manipulative forces at work here pulling strings to create an unfair advantage for a certain section of the industry!!
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quote Phill:There are some very devious and manipulative forces at work here pulling strings to create an unfair advantage for a certain section of the industry!!
as much as i think the inconvenience of having these cards will benefit us in the long run, i agree with you on this comment mate, but not only with these cards, there is a bigger picture. far too much back scratching going on for my liking.
i guess, at the end of the day, it goes on everywhere, if not trades, then councils, governments etc -
My husband’s a carpenter, and he’s got a CSCS card. It consisted of about 40 multiple choice questions to do with Health and Safety, the majority of which are just common knowledge. He got the certificate, then to actually get the card was a right palava. It cost about £40 I think, but then to actually get his card, he had to fill in another form and pay another £35ish (can’t remember the exact figures). The certificates we sent off with the forms were apparently not the right ones, so we had to then pay some more to City and Guilds for some other certificates, before he could send off for his card again!!! If C & G couldn’t locate his certificates, he would have had to pay some horrendous amount for an NVQ assessor to stay with him for a couple of days to make sure he was doing his job correctly.
Anyway, since then he has worked on numerous building sites, and guess how many times he has been asked for his card…………. -
May be its time we showed our disapproval to the powers at be. I’m a member of 3 sign forums and on one of these i,ve suggested an online petition that can eventually be printed off. This would allow the members of this board to leave there name & company if they wished to show their their disapproval of the requirements & cost to aquire a CSCS card. We have all complained amount others speaking for this industry well now maybe we need to voice our opions. For this to work obviously Rob would have to agree to help set something up and also members who are members of other sites running the petition to only to sign once be it on whatever site but when all of the sign sites print off the petition it will show the concern that signmakers have over this issue & can be sent to the CSCS, CITB & BSGA etc.
Kev
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quote Phill:This whole thing stinks!!A situation has been created whereby a select group of individuals and companies have been given an unfair advantage over many others by virtue of the fact they have been kept informed about the lobbying and negotiating that has been going on in the background making it nessessary to gain CSCS before the doors were closed to everyone. Let us not forget that anyone who was in the business of installing signs could certify themselves by the “Grandfather rights/experienced route” . This option was allowed for a limited period of time to allow “those in the know” to do just that.
There are some very devious and manipulative forces at work here pulling strings to create an unfair advantage for a certain section of the industry!!
In any industry "those that know" are the ones that are serious about what they do, ignorance of the law/regulations is no excuse, so if you cant comply, you cant do it. Its not a cospiracy theory I’m sure.
The relevant bodies that bring in legislation, do not write to all the population when something is up for change.
It is up to the individual, or company to keep up to date with the legislation, via trade associatings, unions, trade publications etc. No point bellyaching after the fact, if you miss the boat, who do you blame?And No i dont have a cscs card, but I only just heard of it through this thread, so I’m guilty of not keeping up with new regs. My fault no one elses
Peter
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Sorry Peter – But you’re wrong 😛
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I usually am Phil, You are always however, entirely correct But I defend my right to be wrong.
Peter -
How…How….How very dare you (hot) 😉
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quote CABROWN:I’m not claiming to know all the answers but let me try and put a few of the facts as they have been presented to me.
Why don’t you put all your cards on the table Craig. You’re on the technical commitee of the BSGA so why don’t you come up front and state this fact instead of implying you are an impartial observer rather than someone who is very much involved in creating this situation 😕
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Hello All,
My opinion on CSCS for what it’s worth.Yes it entails jumping through a few hoops and filling in forms, having your photo taken, listing any disabilities you may have and of course taking a multi choice on line test at your local driving centre or college. However, unless you actually have trade qualifications taking a H&S test in isolation wont get you a card.
The CSCS card is not only proof of having taken a H&S test but it also states on the card what you are and what relevant qualifications you hold.
I was advised back in 2000 to get one. Therefore I did and obtained a Gold card. Since then whenever I have been offered to tender by architects (their organisation was one of the first to sign up to the scheme) they specify CSCS either blue or gold depending on the quality and difficulty of work on tender.
My local council also now insists on the card if you forward a tender application.
The card was designed to be two fold in so far as it is an attempt to get the appalling accident figures down in the construction trades and also to drive the cowboys out of the industry.
If you or your firm apply or tender for work there is usually a clause stipulating that a certain percentage of the workforce have a blue card and the supervisor a gold card.
I cant’ speak for the sign industry of course as we are stonemasons and carvers but personally we can see the benefits.
In addition, once you have one then you have to take a new H&S test every 7 years to keep it valid.
Now if you lack trade qualifications all is not lost as it is still possible to obtain them. There are two routes/options and I have been involved with both. I work as a stonemason but I also teach stonemasonry at a stonemasonry college so I am familiar with both routes.
Option one: Enrol on a City & Guilds/NVQ course in your craft and spend two years one day per week at college. This two years (with suitable work based evidence to back it up) should be ample time for you to achieve the level 2 C & G /NVQ. A level 2 will get you the blue card (but you must work in the industry to get it). There is no need for the advanced craft level 3 qualification unless of course you want the gold card.
Option 2: Enrol at a college for the OSAT route (On Site Assessment & Training). This entails paying a fee to your college and every month or so a qualified assessor applicable to your trade will visit you on site. He/she will check your work in addition to setting you written work to do. You will also keep a work based diary into which you will enter the jobs you have done with suitable photos and verified by a qualified tradesman/woman. You will of course have to fulfil certain criteria in terms of what evidence you gather for submission.
In terms of cost both routes work out about the same although the OSAT route means you don’t have to give up a days work each week to attend college.
FWIW I would recommend biting the bullet and gaining a card because as time passes more and more companies are signing up to the scheme. This is becoming self evident as we are in the majority of cases asked for CSCS proof by architects and local authorities with the majority of our work.
Finally, the following happened back in 2000. A friend of mine who is also a stonemason basically poured scorn on the idea of a CSCS card and told me at the time I was applying for mine that it would never catch on. Well it has and it has cost him financially in lost work. However, he is now on the OSAT route (I’m his on site assessor so now I can keep reminding about the "…it will never catch on" claim :lol1: ).
I hope this clarifies any unanswered questions.
Mike Delta. -
Mike
I refer to my post above regarding assessors/verifiers. There are now only a handfull of colleges in the country that run sign courses and it is only those colleges that could send out assessors etc. It is very doubtfull that other colleges employ assessors that have 5 years current experience in the sign industry. -
Mike
glad to see you got the card when you did, how & who informed you to get the card? Also from what you say your work takes you to work for the building trade from the early planning stages & more building work orientated than work carried out by members on the boards. I go to sites to apply safety signs for companies to ensure the signs actually get put up an aren’t just chucked in the canteen by the workers this mainly entails cable tying to Arris fencing, bonding & fixing to temporary structures etc. For this i now need to pay in excess of £2500 to get the S/NVQ so i can qualify for a CSCS card to gain access to these sites a few times a year. I’ve traded as a signmaker/installer for 5 years & previously came from an engineering back ground. Now 23 years on i’m being asked to pay an extortionate amount of money to gain a qualification to carry out the type of work i’ve done accident free for a long time.Nice to see someone from another field of signmaking on the boards.
Kev
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quote Phill:quote CABROWN:I’m not claiming to know all the answers but let me try and put a few of the facts as they have been presented to me.
Why don’t you put all your cards on the table Craig. You’re on the technical commitee of the BSGA so why don’t you come up front and state this fact instead of implying you are an impartial observer rather than someone who is very much involved in creating this situation 😕
Hi Phil – Cards on the table as you put it (but it is on my profile for uksignboards), I’ve worked for Signs Express since 1989 and got into the industry as a trainee signwriter in 1984, as a company we joined the BSGA because we wanted to be involved with the trade body of the Sign Industry, we could see the benefits of things like the technical guidelines and from a commercial point of view the BSGA emblem adds weight when tendering for work (one question on most tenders now seems to be are you a member of your industry trade association).
I was invited to join the technical committee so that I could look at guidelines on vinyl and its uses in the industry, but I feel that I have gleaned an awful lot of knowledge from the other experts on the committee (who like me give up their time free of charge).
You seem to be under the impression that the BSGA have acted in a way to bring this on the whole industry where in fact as several other contributors have stated it has been brought about by the CIBT. You might also like to know that the BSGA ran a number of meetings throughout the UK to let member and non member companies know what impact these cards could potentially have on the industry. These events were advertised in the Sign trade magazines.
These are some of the main facts and I make no apology for repeating myself
• The CSCS Card scheme was not established by the BSGA, nor is it administered by the Association. It was set up and is run by the CITB through CSCS Product Services. It has been in operation for approximately 10 years.
• The scheme does not apply solely to sign installers, it applies to a large number of trades across the construction industry, as can be seen from the CSCS web site ( http://www.cscs.uk.com ) where they say there are 230 occupations registered with the scheme. These range from Aerial & Satellite Installer, through French Polisher to Wood Machinist.
• The CSCS Card scheme was establish with the aim of raising standards of health and safety and reducing the risk of accidents throughout the construction industry.
• The requirement to have an NVQ qualification (or specified units from an NVQ) relevant to your specific occupation is not unique to sign installers. It applies to all trades.
• It was possible to obtain a card by the industry accreditation scheme, which did not require the candidate to have the NVQ qualification however, this route was open only for two years and closed in April 2005. According to CSCS/CITB approximately 1600 sign installers obtained cards via this route.
• Following the closure of the industry accreditation scheme there was no route by which a sign installer could obtain a CSCS card, which is why the BSGA began making representations to the CITB and CSCS Product Services in late 2005. This was done in response to requests from member and non-member companies who were frustrated by the fact that they could not obtain CSCS Cards and were experiencing difficulty gaining access to an increasing number of sites.
• The costs for registration, health and safety test and NVQ courses are not determined by the BSGA. These are set by CSCS, the awarding body (SASL) and the individual colleges.
• Yes there are a limited number of colleges offering the NVQ in Signmaking – not surprisingly, because ours is a small industry and the base from which colleges would draw candidates is therefore small. It would not be economically viable for all colleges to offer the course in signmaking therefore, it tend to be offered by a few specialist centres.
• Details of the colleges and centres offering courses in signmaking can be found on the BSGA web site http://www.bsga.co.uk in the members directory or by phoning the BSGA office on 01733 230033.
• The CSCS Card scheme is not only for members of the BSGA it is available to all sign installers.
• An increasing number of companies and organisations require that trades people of any description, not only sign installers, entering their sites or premises must hold a CSCS Card appropriate to their trade. This again is not something that has been instituted by the BSGA.If it’s any consolation I’ve got well over half of our network without a cscs card and without a college close to hand to get staff trained. The colleges obviously need the courses to be financially viable for them to run them and demand needs to be there for more colleges to offer the service.
The other thing that the BSGA does that benefits everyone in the Sign industry whether they are members or not, is that they lobby any council that try’s to force through planning regulation changes for Signage in our towns and villages, if these changes go unchecked the number of signs and the types of materials we can use will be greatly restricted.
I’d like to think that I’ve contributed and answered questions on this board and the 2 other sign related sites I’m a member of …and as long as people find the contributions useful I’ll continue to post.
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Thank you for your detailed reply Craig.
Surely you must agree that the present situation is wholly unsatisfatory for anyone not already in possesion of a CSCS card. Why aren’t the BSGA tackling this problem with a workable solution instead of the clumsy and unworkable system that seems to be going in place now.
What is the likely future of CSCS. Do you beleive it is likely to become mandatory for any sign installation? This is what concerns many people like myself.
Thanks again for your input 😀
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Phill – you’ve hit the nail on the head, the whole system is clumsy and frustrating and I totally understand that someone who has spend years and years working safely will resent having to get a formal qualification to work on some sites in the UK.
The CITB set the ground rules and the BSGA had to negotiate very hard to reduce the original criteria from a full NVQ down to the CITB Health and Safety Test and 2 elements of the S/NVQ I signmaking. (Not something they appear to have done for other trades).
For the scheme to truly work it needs to be assessable to all.
In answer to your other question “Will the CSCS card become mandatory for all sign fitting”, IMHO, no it won’t, but more and more shop owners, buyers and specifiers will want to see that you are competent to fit fascias and the likes. This brings into play your risk assessments and method statements where you declare that you are IPAF trained or have possibly undertaken safe ladder training etc, etc, etc. so some form of formal qualification might prove bennifical.
The BSGA is funded by the subscription of it’s members and doesn’t have a bottomless pit of money to dip into, it also relies heavily on those subscribing members giving up their time to investigate these types of issues; I will say that I’m more than happy to pass all your concerns back to the BSGA so that they can at least get a fair over view of the feeling in the trade.
It might even make sense to post some of the issues that we as a trade association get to hear about onto Signboards if the BSGA and Robert Lambie think it is appropriate.
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quote CABROWN:more and more shop owners, buyers and specifiers will want to see that you are competent to fit fascias and the likes.Wasn’t that the sales pitch for BS5750/ISO9002?
Just how many accrediatation schemes do we need?
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Craig
why doesn’t the BGSA & independent sign makers work together to fight the stated qualifications required on the grounds that it is totally unworkable. I’ve spoken to the CSCS helpdesk in relation to finding someone to carryout the onsite assesment & was referred to the CITB who could not find a local college. (they spent 1 1/2 hrs looking) they then suggested that i contact the CSCS helpdesk again & that if they could not find somewhere local, to suggest to them the possibility of going on to an associated trade card, so if the operatives of CITB can reconise a problem with the system why can’t we jointly lobby the powers at be to reconise it. I do agree with the card system & assessment works well for the building trade due to the fact the building trade is taught at most colleges. However signmaking isn’t and that is leading to extortionate costs to get the qualification. Walsall college quoted £2500 plus travelling expenses & 2 days for me to attend there as well. It word be far better to have a local assessment system which covered standard fixing, fitting etc combined with the H&S test & working at heights. CITB quoted an approximate cost of £450 based on what it costs to assess a tradesman before i had spoken to Walsall College.Kev
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Hello All,
Just to clarify a couple of issues regarding CSCS cards and also to answer Kevin’s question re " how & who informed you to get the card".In terms of only a few colleges running the type of courses for sign makers/writers et cetera, distance should not be insurmountable if a candidate opts for the OSAT route to a qualification.
For example, the college where I teach stonemasonry on a part time basis is only one of 3 in England. York where I work and one at Bath and the other at Weymouth so it’s quite a geographical spread (plus one in Wales and one in Scotland). This is because the majority of colleges cater for Brickwork which is not the same thing as stonemasonry. Stonemasonry is a specialised craft and the actual numbers of craftsmen are small and therefore the number of potential trainees. Hence the very small number of colleges that cater for masons. Therefore I am drawing comparisons with sign makers/writers in so far as very few colleges cater for the trade.
However, OSAT is still probably the most viable option in terms of cost and the length of time it will take you to gain your recognised qualification. At least you can be earning a days wages on this route instead of losing a days wage if you were to attend a day class every week for two years to gain the NVQ level 2 (and that would equate to 38 weeks per year on average). The advanced craft would take another 18 months.
Several of my colleagues at my college are involved in OSAT who belong to other trades and I do know of at least one who does nothing else but that specific role and he travels many miles per year visiting his candidates so distance and geographical should be a major problem. In any case OSAT only requires an on site visit every couple of months or so and bear in mind that OSAT is for "experienced" workers and not trainees so they are not coming out to train you but to give you a list of tasks that will enable you to prove you have done or can do a particular task and you submit that evidence to your assessor on his/her next visit. So in the period you are doing OSAT you may only see your assessor less than a dozen times. Sometimes much less by half.
May I suggest that you do a web search for colleges that teach your particular craft specialism and contact them about OSAT. It is likely they will be pleased to do it as it generates revenue.
Also, you may think that assessors for your trade will be few in number but consider that many assessors of a particular craft run their own businesses and only assess for a set number of hours per week and are hourly paid by the college they work for. I am a typical example in many respects as I only teach stonemasonry part time (taught full time for a year and it was crap) and I run the family business with my Father the rest of the time. I’m not unique in this respect and although I don’t know of any sign people who follow my example, I certainly know several other trades who do exactly as I do. So in a nutshell contact a suitable college and ask about OSAT.Don’t forget by the way that if you already hold trade qualifications in your day job then you can opt straight for the CSCS card application and take the required on line test and bypass OSAT.
Dealing with Kevin’s question; I only found out about CSCS by accident. I was contacted by a firm of Architects and Surveyors from Leeds in West Yorkshire and asked if I would submit a price for the restoration of a large Victorian stone monument situated in a public park. To cut to the quick I met this architect on site and he explained what he wanted in terms of conservation and restoration. Anyhow I was half way through the survey taking my usual photos and measurements when he stated "…and by the way, I take it that you are CSCS registered". To be perfectly honest I had never heard of it and said so. Needless to say he said there was little point in carrying on with the survey as I would not be considered for the project. He did however explain to me what CSCS was and why the British Association of Architects had signed up for the scheme. He also gave me some good advice. "Get one". I did so and to be honest it has proved to be financially beneficial and we as a company have since dealt with and carried out work for that same firm of Architects who originally gave me the elbow for not having one.
I know it is a pain in the arse having to get one and especially so if you don’t have any trade qualifications and indeed it wont come cheap but my advise would be to "bite the bullet" and get one. It is also becoming more and more difficult to gain access to sites and premises without a card and it will get worse as more and more people sign up to the scheme whatever the rights and wrongs of the case are. Seriously guys, CSCS is here to stay.
Regards,
Mike Delta -
Not long after first starting our sign business my wife Alison attended a day release HNC course in signmaking at Telford College in Ediburgh. I haven’t checked what modules she sat but I suspect she may well have the required modules to enable her to apply for a CSCS card should she wish to do so.
I’m pretty sure of what her reaction will be if I suggest to her that she should apply for a CSCS card and carry out all the installation work for our business. This is not a sexist view – but a practical view. She wouldn’t dream of carrying out this type of work whereas I’m more than capable of doing it. It just demonstrates how absurd the whole situation is.
Why can’t the British be more like the French – put two fingers up to the establishment if we disagree with the rules they try to impose upon us.
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quote Phill:Why can’t the British be more like the French – put two fingers up to the establishment if we disagree with the rules they try to impose upon us.
Well said, that man! A few burning tyres in the middle of some roundabouts works wonders on French politicians.
I think we ought to give it a go. 🙁
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Hi Kevin – I will take all the comments that have been placed on the boards back to the next BSGA meeting as every ones comments deserve to be heard…I’d also like to thank Mike Delta for his comments because he’s told me a few things I didn’t know.
The CITB are 10 years in on this project so I doubt any lobbying at this stage will help…but easier and more cost effective access to the training required seems a must.
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quote CABROWN:Hi Kevin – I will take all the comments that have been placed on the boards back to the next BSGA meeting as every ones comments deserve to be heard…I’d also like to thank Mike Delta for his comments because he’s told me a few things I didn’t know.
The CITB are 10 years in on this project so I doubt any lobbying at this stage will help…but easier and more cost effective access to the training required seems a must.
Carbrown thank you in advance for taking the time to relate the issues that have been raised on this site
Althought it may fall on deaf hears but myself and other small makers are in the process of getting a petition underway to get the small signmaker heard (& i don’t mean Rob 😀 ) on the mater of the unworkable system that as been put in place. As far as i am aware unfortunately the petition will not be featured on UKSB, but will be open to all signmakers big or small to sign. Hopefully details will be in trade mags in the next few months
Kev
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quote :unfortunately the petition will not be featured on UKSB
hi kev, can you tell me why this is mate?
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Rob
i’ve sent you a PM, the comment was nothing sinister just that the petition was mentioned earlier on in this topic mentioning it would require your consent/help to put it on the site. But you hadn,t responded.Quote Kevin Flowers
May be its time we showed our disapproval to the powers at be. I’m a member of 3 sign forums and on one of these i,ve suggested an online petition that can eventually be printed off. This would allow the members of this board to leave there name & company if they wished to show their their disapproval of the requirements & cost to aquire a CSCS card. We have all complained amount others speaking for this industry well now maybe we need to voice our opions. For this to work obviously Rob would have to agree to help set something up and also members who are members of other sites running the petition to only to sign once be it on whatever site but when all of the sign sites print off the petition it will show the concern that signmakers have over this issue & can be sent to the CSCS, CITB & BSGA etc.& i emailed you and got no response so presumed you did not wish the site to get involved, which if this is the case you have every right to do.
Kev
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Hi kev
Yes just got your PM… but I have not had any emails regarding any of this mate.So the petition is based on:
“Disapproval of the requirements & cost to acquire a CSCS card”?Out of interest, what sort of requirements & costs do you think should be asked of us? Also, how should/could they go about this?
I do not ask this to try and be smart, I am just asking/curious.
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Rob,
basically yes but petition will cover a wider range all though “Disapproval of the requirements & cost to acquire a CSCS card”? generalises it
The points that it will hopefully cover is.1. Lack of information to small businesses leading to the implementation of the CSCS card
2. Accepting that the BGSA represented the sign industry when it probably only represents 5-10%
3. That the S/NVQ assesment is unworkable on a nationwide scale due to the lack of centers capable to carry out the on site assesments & the travelling that would be in volved for signmakers to attend the college for the required 2 days (Which is what i have been quoted) & obviously this is what is raising the cost.
The suggestion to be put forward is that signmakers be allowed to apply for the "Associated Trades Card" the H&S test would still be needed including working at height. The main difference would be to the test assesment the suggestion would be to have one relating to general material fixings, approach to job being carrid out etc that could be carried out by building colleges. Which are of greater numbers across the country allowing the system to be workable nationwide at an acceptable cost. At present the approximate cost to assess a builder is a fifth of that to assess a signmaker. Basically £450 per builder against £2500 per signmaker a big difference & booking to correspond with a sign fitting job would be harder to do due to the lack of assessers & majority of on site assesments wouldn’t even be carried out on a building site which basically what this card is for.
Obviously nothing is set in stone and the idea of these forums is to discuss these issues in the hope that we can come up with the best solution we can. I admitt i am trying to rally members on this but it is hopefully for the benefit of all. I don’t have all the answers & i aint the best when it comes to putting words down to explain myself but hopefully people will understand what is trying to be done and support the action by signing the petition. Needless to say everyone is welcome to comment & suggest anything that they feel relevant.
My beds calling now on site early this morning, hopefully we’ll get to speak more tomorrow.
Kev
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Thanks Peter 😉
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no problem Phil.
I think you wanted to add this:-
just wanted to add that I sincerely hope there is a lot more support for this than I am seeing expressed on forums. I’m frankly surprised at how few sign makers seem to be too concerned. Perhaps they think it will never really affect them. My opinion is that if the BSGA have their way CSCS will become a mandatory qualification before anyone can install a sign anywhere. Stand up and be counted guys! Your livelihood may well be affected by it all.
Phil
Peter
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I could agree with you more, I am very concerned about the impact on our business. Does anybody know where the nearest colleges to Stockport are that hold the courses?
Personally I don’t think you will stop the spread of the card, anymore than you would have done ISO9001 and similar as too many larger companies will see the competitive advantage it would have for them and could easier afford to have people off being trained etc. These are often also the ones who can afford to send delegates to the meetings and are also the ones that are invited to participate in the meetings.
The real issue is whether a higher degree of qualification is being imposed on sign makers compared to similar occupations also required to have CSCS. that bit i am still not clear on, does somebody know the answers?
Martin
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Martin,
check with the BGSA i’m sure there is a college in StockportSome helpful tel numbers:
CITB 0870 600 4020
CSCS helpdesk 0870 417 8777
BGSA 01733 230033
Kev
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It does concern me after reading everyones views and opinions on here …. but I need to know more about it all, I have been aware of these cards but did not realise how much of an impact they could eventually have on our businesses … in a not so good way but also in a positive way.
I dont think its a bad idea to have to have some sort of qualification etc to be able to work in this trade …. my main reason for supporting this is to try and eliminate the people who do our line of work on the side for beer money and for those that are constantly trying to de-value the trade.
On the down side Ii am not so supportive of the costs of it all, the way it is coming about, the lack of information etc.
But as I said I need to know more first. I think a petition or similar is not a bad idea but I think there needs to be alternatives stated …. I think it needs to be said ok we dont agree with the way its progressing and as a majority group we would suggest this. There has to be a compromise, I cannot see them scrapping it no matter how many companies sign a petition, there needs to be a middle ground, something that the majority and minority can agree to.
Im babbling, but Im making sense in my own head :lol1: :lol1: 😕 😕
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quote John Childs:quote Phill:Why can’t the British be more like the French – put two fingers up to the establishment if we disagree with the rules they try to impose upon us.Well said, that man! A few burning tyres in the middle of some roundabouts works wonders on French politicians.
I think we ought to give it a go. 🙁
can we stand some politicians in them too ?
i have only one view on this, i pride myself with my goals of perfection, i might not be the best by a long way, i know that, but my facias aint gona fall down unless all the weight of the ott fixings pull the building over (and if they do i’m insured), my signs won’t blow off, and i seldom take any chances which may end up with me sobbing on the floor with a sign thru my head,
my partner is an nvq accessor in the nursing industry, and i am well aware of the costs involved to take nvq’s, even a short version would not be cheap. i for one, could neither afford the time, or the money, to take such a course, the paperwork isnt a problem, but who will supervise me ? my 13yr old part timer son ?
as for sites, i rarely visit them, but, i think in future when installing a site safety board, i’ll stay on the outside of the fence and attach it to the top !
i may be quite new to the industry, but that doesnt make me a cowboy, a moron, or make me supply unsafe and crap signage, working for myself, i rely 90% on my good reputation to gain work, little comes by way of advertising, what i earn is ploughed straight into the house / business, i guess you could liken me to a subsstance farmer, what i sow i reap, little more, i really do not want to have to put myself into so much debt that i end up bankrupt cos someone wants me to prove i’m not a chav with no clue.
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Carrie
the petition is not about abolishing the CSCS card for the signtrade but in making the requirements workable. At present very few colleges support the signmaking S/NVQ and even fewer support on site assesment which is a requirement for the CSCS card. As to doing away with the person doing it for beer money, won’t ever happen while there are people out there who want it doing for next to nothing.Kev
PS. just search "CSCS card" and you will get the official web site
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[quote="Kevin Flowers"]. As to doing away with the person doing it for beer money, won’t ever happen while there are people out there who want it doing for next to nothing.
Kev
/quote]
the beer money thing is easy, destroy ebay, and most will give up tomorrow !! sure… i’ll lose about 5% of my income, but it’d be a small price to pay ! -
quote Kevin Flowers:Rob,
basically yes but petition will cover a wider range all though “Disapproval of the requirements & cost to acquire a CSCS card”? generalises it
The points that it will hopefully cover is.1. Lack of information to small businesses leading to the implementation of the CSCS card
2. Accepting that the BGSA represented the sign industry when it probably only represents 5-10%
3. That the S/NVQ assesment is unworkable on a nationwide scale due to the lack of centers capable to carry out the on site assesments & the travelling that would be in volved for signmakers to attend the college for the required 2 days (Which is what i have been quoted) & obviously this is what is raising the cost.
The suggestion to be put forward is that signmakers be allowed to apply for the “Associated Trades Card” the H&S test would still be needed including working at height. The main difference would be to the test assesment the suggestion would be to have one relating to general material fixings, approach to job being carrid out etc that could be carried out by building colleges. Which are of greater numbers across the country allowing the system to be workable nationwide at an acceptable cost. At present the approximate cost to assess a builder is a fifth of that to assess a signmaker. Basically £450 per builder against £2500 per signmaker a big difference & booking to correspond with a sign fitting job would be harder to do due to the lack of assessers & majority of on site assesments wouldn’t even be carried out on a building site which basically what this card is for.
Obviously nothing is set in stone and the idea of these forums is to discuss these issues in the hope that we can come up with the best solution we can. I admitt i am trying to rally members on this but it is hopefully for the benefit of all. I don’t have all the answers & i aint the best when it comes to putting words down to explain myself but hopefully people will understand what is trying to be done and support the action by signing the petition. Needless to say everyone is welcome to comment & suggest anything that they feel relevant.Kev
I missed this post .. dont ask me how, but I did? Now I understand better what and why you are trying to get us all together to achieve.
😀 -
Kev
thanks for the information will certainly follow that up. In terms of CSCS I think reading the debate, the real issue is the requirements of the NVQ, nobody has a problem with H&S
What I fail to understand looking at the NVQ syllabus is the relevance of most of the curriculum to installation of signs.
I for one have never – "formed and bent materials to specification" for the simple reason that I sub-contract that work to a supplier which makes business sense considering the cost and space of the equipment to do the job correctly. Yet I have to pass that test as part of the NVQ. By the same token the best sign-maker within my business happens to be our worst installer, so he makes signs and myself and one of the other guys install them. So where is the logic of having a sign-making course as the basis of an installation qualification?
How many people who have the CSCS card thru grandfather rights have all the knowledge required for the NVQ?
Does it make them a bad installer if they haven’t made a sign?
So why should that be part of the test for installation?
If the powers that be are serious about raising the standards of qualification for installation and H&S, they should create a specific NVQ that is appropriate to the job description.
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Up until now, this topic has had 1735 views – and yet only 27 peopkle have voted on the subject. What’s all that about 😕
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quote Phill:Up until now, this topic has had 1735 views – and yet only 27 peopkle have voted on the subject. What’s all that about 😕
Hi Phil
think i am a bit of a thicky cos when i hit the button at the top of the page nothing happens? 😮 😮
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Phil, that’s ‘cos people keep coming back to read the replies and then re-read them, I am sure there aren’t 1735 separate people having a look.
Now go and sit in the corner and calm yourself down, you will be adding years to your looks :lol1:
Dave
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I’m calm , I’m calm (hot) (hot) :lol1:
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phill does have a point mate…
yes dave, your right people that have voted will view this thread a good few times, but… lets say only the ones to vote have viewed this thread. it would mean that every one of the voters would have had to view the tread more than 50 times each. 😕 :lol1: ive read it all through and i recon i have viewed the thread about 5 times. this is because im trying to follow it but will read it only when i see updates. by then, around 5 replies might have went in, so i read them all in one go. not each time a post is made. :lol1: to be honest, i recon the real reason not more than the 31 voters so far have posted isA, Reality is, many people using the site dont bother to participate in ANY way. no matter how simple…
B, Some folk dont realise it just takes the click of their mouse to vote.
C, Some that start to read this thread further down the line think its a discussion topic, but not a vote/poll. so dont scroll back to vote.
D, Many of those reading the thread are NOT registered on the site, so dont login to vote.
ide say C & D are the most common reasons in this case.
so any advance on the 31 votes so far folks? scroll back to the beginning of this post and be heard 😀
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Hello All,
Just a tad more info’ outlining routes for gaining NVQ’s & CSCS.
This is from my local college so it is targeted specifically at construction trades and not sign work. However, it may clarify a few points by explaining how OSAT works and approximate costs et cetera.
Regards,
Mike DeltaOSAT
What is OSAT?
On Site Assessment and Training (OSAT) is a process which enables the ‘experienced worker’ (EW) to achieve National Vocational Qualifications (NVQ) at their place of work.An NVQ combined with an up to date Health & Safety test is also the route for the Construction Skills Certificate Scheme (CSCS) card.
An increasing number of companies, contractors and clients are looking for operatives and employees to prove their competence via the CSCS card.
The OSAT process enables experienced workers in the construction industry to profile their skills against the list of skills recognised by the industry. An important part of OSAT is the gathering of suitable evidence as (which is a requirement of the NVQ).
Average timescale for completion is 6 – 8 months
Average cost is £500 for each qualification level
(Grants are available please contact us for more details).The benefits are wide reaching – the individual benefits, the company he/she works for benefits and of course this extends to the industry as more of the workforce will improve there skills and become more efficient.
Key Benefits of OSAT
You do not have to attend college to gain your qualification
Existing skills are taken into account so no time wastage
A fast track route to achieving an NVQ
Reduced costs for the employer as little time is spent away from work
Your skills and experience are recognised with a national qualification
You can apply for a CSCS card
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Mike
as you say not aimed at sign trade, which makes a big difference. Very few colleges do signs as a NVQ, those that do don’t all do on site training. This means that a course which should cost £500 shoots upto £2500 plus travel "this was quoted by Walsall College" because they are based in the Midlands & i’m on the out skirts of London. They are the nearest accredited college to me according to the BSGA.Kev
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Hi all
Couple of points:
1 with the potential importance of this subject and the need to get people voting and expressing views would it be worth having a link to the subject on the main page with a synopsis of what is about and the potential impact, that way it may get more participation than current.2 It seems to me the opportunity of gaining the cscs via granfather rights was very poorly communicated outside the inner circles of the BGSA and large sign companies. A few people I have spoken to gained it because they were doing work for a construction company late last year who demanded it at a time when ‘grandfather’ rights were still available
I would have thought a sensible proposal would be to extend the time frame for gaining the cscs certification via the experience route by six – 12 months but this time ensure it is well publicised via governement, sign magazines and organisations and web sites such as this.
Surely this should have happened in the first place rather than being buried in the way is seems to have been.
This is a win – win for everybody, including the customer – ie lack of supply of certified installers means demand and therefore prices go up with potential delays on projects due to limit of resources; potential prosecution of customers due to lack of dda and other required signage and so forth.
love to know your thoughts on this?
Martin
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Martin, I agree with all you say on this the ‘grandfather’ rights should be extended.
Nick.
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I seem to be in the minority in that I do have a CSCS card and obtained it under the Industry Accreditation scheme (Grandfather rights) otherwise I’d be in the same boat as many of you here with 20 years experience but no paperwork to back it up.
Extending the Industry Accreditation scheme sounds like a good idea but as it closed in April last year it’s more a case of getting it re-opened and there doesn’t seem to be a precedent for doing that with any of the 230+ trades affected.
I agree with most of the comments about the BSGA too, if you’re a member or ‘in the know’ then the introduction of the CSCS card wouldn’t have been a surprise but how many sign makers are members out of the 10,000(ish) sign companies in the UK?? Craig Brown’s comments are open and forthright but the organisation of which he is a senior member doesn’t represent the views and opinions of the majority of the sign making community so who gave them the right to speak for all?
Petitions etc are all well and good and I mean no disrespect to Kevin Flowers when I say this but the chances of getting an essentially governmental organisation like the CSCS scheme to change their rules for a ‘minority’ trade like ours are slim to say the least.
The best way for this whole thing to be handled would have been for there not to have been a specific signage category, that way getting a card would have been far easier for the smaller sign firm as the ‘builder’ route could have been followed and would have been far more readily available (not to mention cheaper). Would it have been too much to ask for the BSGA to have left things alone? They seem to be the ones who have created the situation under discussion by insisting on a signage category without considering the wider implications to the industry as a whole.
Rant over 😳
Guy
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Hello All,
An "hot of the press" update on OSAT & CSCS.
As I mentioned in a much earlier post on this topic, I teach on a part time basis (Architectural Stonecarving) and I offered up what I know regarding OSAT & CSCS, although I can only speak for the stonemasonry sector.
However, in addition to holding my teaching qualifications I am also a registered assessor for the construction industry. This means that I receive regular updates from the CITB & City & Guilds in terms of what changes are planned for the industry.
Therefore to the point and hopefully of use to you people in the sign industry, I today received an update on routes for experienced workers to gain an NVQ on a "fast track" route.
So- give me chance to scan the update into my computer and to tidy it up if it needs it, and I will post it here ASAP. Hopefully this evening (after the England game (hot) ).
Watch this space.
Regards,
Mike Delta. -
thank you mike, very good of you mate. 😀
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Hi all,
Please see below the update for OSAT & CSCS pasted here written out in blue. The words are copied directly from the CITB document.
It should at least give you a lead onto more information although as I stated earlier I can’t really be specific with issues regarding your own particular craft. I did however take a brief look at the CITB website (given at the end of the pasted document) and as usual I don’t find sites of that particular genre easy to navigate around (or is it me who’s a bit thick!) although I did enter a general search and found not alot.
I ended up on a page that lists specific trades for CSCS et cetera and did notice information on sign fixing (illuminated and non illuminated) and also a category for sign writer.
Hopefully you will find at least some useful information.
Good luck.
Mike Delta.The Experienced Worker Practical Assessment (EWPA)
This is a fast route only open to some trades through the CITB-ConstructionSkills/City & Guilds awarding body. It is available for workers with a minimum of five years experience and who don’t need any further training.
It involves spending a day having your skills and knowledge assessed at an off-site location, normally your NVQ centre. This can sometimes be done at weekends.
All the skills needed to pass the NVQ are included in one task, which is observed by an approved assessor.
The 4 Steps of EWPA
Step 1: You will be contacted by a member of staff within 3 weeks to arrange your first appointment.
Step 2: An assessor will introduce you to the process and make an initial assessment to ensure you are suitable to qualify through this method. They may also ask you to bring some items of ‘evidence’ with you. Evidence you provide can be in a written form, such as witness statements from customers or supervisors worked with in the past, or it can take the form of photographs of your work, site plans, qualifications or proof of employment.
Step 3: You will undertake a practical assessment of your skills which will be observed by the assessor. This will be followed by professional discussion to assess your knowledge of the subject.
Step 4: If you are successful, you should receive your full CSCS card within 7 working days and your NVQ certificate will also arrive a few weeks later. If you do not pass the assessment all it not lost: the work you have done can still count towards your qualification through OSAT
If you have any questions about any aspect of your qualification route including CITB Grant support, please speak to your local CITB-ConstructionSkills area office.
CITB WEBSITE: http://www.citb-constructionskills.co.uk/abfc -
am i missing something or does that not sound pretty straight forward to me? although a few days needed to gain one… not the long winded route i have been reading about. what about the costs on this?
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Rob
the above refers to the building trade which is supported by colleges nationwide. The signtrades problem is that for the 2 day assesment you need there is only an handful if that of accredited colleges. Due to the sign industry not requiring the card on such a scale that the building trade does costs rise, my nearest centre as provided by the BGSA is 200 miles away i have to pay for the travelling for the assesor + the cost of the course which as an individual would cost approx £2500 all which was quoted by Walsal college.
I am still in contact with the CITB, CSCS card help desk waiting for their responseKev
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Just a thought –
How does an unskilled labourer get a job on a building site – or does a labourer now have to become a "qualified labourer" before he can make a living in this over regulated country of ours 🙄
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Below is an extract from my post of the 20th june. For the reasons within it the osat or ewpa routes will not work for everyone and will be cost prohibative. The key words in the assessment are approved assessor. Assessors HAVE to be approved by the BSGA/BPTA(as it was) who are the joint awarding bodies for the sign industry NVQ. The system of assessment/internal verification/external verification cannot be short cut!!!and you cirtainly would not get a NVQ certificate in a few weeks.
The H&S unit its self is quite detailed and for a one man band to obtain without registering with an accredited center is impossible, the reason being is that on site assessment has to be done, who would do that?… because it can only be assessed by a trade specific person with a least 5 years experience (set by QCA), and further more the assessment process has to be intenally verified (a process of quality control) this process can only be done by someone holding D32/33/34 assessor and verifier certs’ (now Vunits) again who would do that and further to that ALL work has to be externally verified a job that I believe is still being done by Peter Tipton for the BSGA as the awarding body. It would also involve producing a portfolio of work (theory) to support the application for unit award. Some have mentioned that accredited centers are few and far between, this is mainly down to the fact that in some areas of the country colleges/centers have been poorly supported by the local industry and due to lack of students have had to close the courses. I know of 4 centers that have closed sign courses in the last year or so.
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Thought I would revive this topic seeing as its gone a bit quiet.
Who is going to try and obtain the card … have you set the ball rolling and booked to do something yet? Are you just going to turn away certain jobs requiring the card or sub out the jobs that will before long come your way?
😀
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I was told by a builder i do work for, that they were getting rid of the card and replacing it with a pin number system????
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quote Simon Clayton:I was told by a builder i do work for, that they were getting rid of the card and replacing it with a pin number system????I think its just a new version of the card with a chip
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I’ve had to get one and my brother has one as we’ve been kicked off building sites before now. The test is a good idea, but I think anyone can pass as it’s multiple choice!
Plus, they sting you twice now, you pay for your test, then have to pay again to get a card!
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