Cheap Chinese Plotters

[Alan Drury]

I’m inclined to agree with you Peter. I do sympathise with those on a budget but if an individual can’t afford £1000 for a decent plotter and say £350 for say Corel or similar to drive it (Summas/Graphtec/Mimaki comes with a free utility to drive directly from Corel/Illustrator) I question if they are seriously going to be able to fund a business. For those who are doing it ‘on the side’ or just want to do their own stuff is this the correct forum.I don’t want to be contraversial here but I’m getting weary of these Chinese plotter questions.
Alan D

[Glenn Sharp]

I bet the photo labs and such like think exactly the same thing….I bet they’re sick to death of joe public being able to print their photographs off at home on a machine bought for £50

Is it the fact that people are trying to set up in business with the cheaper cutters or just the fact that people are asking for help on here that is upsetting people

I think the harsh reality is that sign making can be set up as a "cottage industry" business…working from a spare room or a garage.

I don’t really see why anyone should be ‘looked down on’ for dipping their toe into the market

For me it’s just a personal choice as to how much or how little help you want to offer anyone with a cheap cutter

[Brian Maher]

what are the Chinese plotting now??? 😕

seriously though, like you said on another topic,
you get what you pay for…

[Chris Wool]

well i dont think its the new buyers fault entirely as they are up sold as quality cutters ?. with statements like why spend £2000 this does the same for £350
the real problem is they are not plug and play with no back up. when they are working they are just acceptable to ok.

we either stick our noses in the air and say get a real one or we dont want to know. or help as best we can.
i dont mind either way at the end of the day its up to you to answer the post or not

chris

[Gareth.Lewis]

It is difficult isnt it?

I purchased one some years ago, I had no idea of the relatively affordable costs of a known brand (graphtec at £995) and went and paid £800 for mine (d’oh). It did serve me very well with no issues that I couldn’t work out myself so I had no need to ask on here. I suppose I may have done if the occasion arose.

I feel for those who have gone down that road because so many seem to have encountered problems, especially those of a ‘usb-laptop-serial’ nature. I would be very surprised if even a tiny percentage of those who have purchased the ‘rabbit’ for example are scheming, conniving, no good, money grabbers. Probably more naive or inexperienced.

How could chinese plotter owners be contained on this site? Alter the membership to demand a proof of purchase of a known brand? I don’t think it would be possible and would really smack of elitist-ism.

I think it is just something to put up with and help if possible or ignore, just like the questions about cheapest vinyl or where to buy ‘dibond’.

My chinese plotter is now wrapped in a bin bag in the attic, I didn’t want to embarrass it by letting it see the graphtec…. (which incidentally 2 years later cost me the same as the chinese one – d’oh again)

Gareth

[Graeme Harrold]

The cutter I have is from Grafityp, a 610 Jaguar III. It cost just over £1000 plus a stand. Yes it is of Chinese origin (GCC also make LaserPro machines), however has valid UK support.

It does all come down to how serious the individual is, and i know there are a few ‘gold members’ on here who started on the cheap Chinese rout and have since seen the light and invested in a mainstream, recognised manufacturer.

Everyone who comes here asking for help should get it, only the level and depth of information should vary defendant on potter used and the seriousness of the individual. If nothing else advise those who are using cheap plotters and illegal software to upgrade to at least an entry level commercial model.

Is it time to make the ability to post open only to those with a paid membership……….£15 is nothing even if you are just conducting research………….

[Marcella Ross]

quote glenn:

I bet the photo labs and such like think exactly the same thing….I bet they’re sick to death of joe public being able to print their photographs off at home on a machine bought for £50

Is it the fact that people are trying to set up in business with the cheaper cutters or just the fact that people are asking for help on here that is upsetting people

I think the harsh reality is that sign making can be set up as a “cottage industry” business…working from a spare room or a garage.

I don’t really see why anyone should be ‘looked down on’ for dipping their toe into the market

For me it’s just a personal choice as to how much or how little help you want to offer anyone with a cheap cutter

I agree entirely with this post. I would really like to see some members on here get off their high horse and not criticise new people for buying cheap machines ……. we all started somewhere and some cannot afford to splash out on top spec machinery.
I was fortunate that my first plotter was a Roland that was problem free. But I won’t go slagging off anyone who buys a Rabbit or whatever. I will however advise that they would save a bit more cash and make a better investment.
Surely buying a cheap plotter and ‘giving it a go’ is better than sitting on your ar$e claiming benefits! After all we don’t go around slagging off people on here for buying a cheap Far Eastern car like Kia or Hyundai for example and tell them to go buy a top end German car do we?????

[Simon Mercer]

I am one who started with a cheapynese cutter see other post, but am now saving for a branded one as i feel to limited with what i can do on the Chinese one due to software issues, but we all got to start somewhere, and rather than spend £1000+ to start with and experiment it was the obvious choice.

[John Gregson]

I really can’t see everyone’s problem with owning a Chinese plotter after all we all had to start somewhere.

A cheaper plotter, at nearly a third of the price of a named one, might make good business sense. In the early years, when money is tight, you’ll have that extra cash in the bank, for replenishing stock or advertising, instead of paying your dreaded overdraft fees. After a few years, when your circumstances have changed a bit, and you’ve got work flowing in, then its maybe time to upgrade and get a machine that’s capable of handling the extra workload.

You can tell if the people that buy these machines are taking the business serious as they pay to become members of this forum.

When I was a kid I went fishing in the local pond with my dad. I had a hand line that my dad had rigged up for me, the guy further along the bank had all the best fishing equipment he could carry. I said to my dad, wish I had his gear, my dad answered:
" Yes, but the fish don’t know what fishing rod you’ve got"

If you put vinyl that has been cut on a Chinese cheapy alongside vinyl cut on a Roland would you be able to tell the difference.?

It really is simple – if these questions pi$$ you off, don’t answer them. 😕

John

[Gary Davis]

quote Marcella:

quote glenn:

I bet the photo labs and such like think exactly the same thing….I bet they’re sick to death of joe public being able to print their photographs off at home on a machine bought for £50

Is it the fact that people are trying to set up in business with the cheaper cutters or just the fact that people are asking for help on here that is upsetting people

I think the harsh reality is that sign making can be set up as a “cottage industry” business…working from a spare room or a garage.

I don’t really see why anyone should be ‘looked down on’ for dipping their toe into the market

For me it’s just a personal choice as to how much or how little help you want to offer anyone with a cheap cutter

I agree entirely with this post. I would really like to see some members on here get off their high horse and not criticise new people for buying cheap machines ……. we all started somewhere and some cannot afford to splash out on top spec machinery.
I was fortunate that my first plotter was a Roland that was problem free. But I won’t go slagging off anyone who buys a Rabbit or whatever. I will however advise that they would save a bit more cash and make a better investment.
Surely buying a cheap plotter and ‘giving it a go’ is better than sitting on your ar$e claiming benefits! After all we don’t go around slagging off people on here for buying a cheap Far Eastern car like Kia or Hyundai for example and tell them to go buy a top end German car do we?????

couldnt agree more! not everyone has the money to invest in the early years. if your starting out anything will ‘do’ for a short while. i have always gone with Summa from the start but thats a personal choice as support is vital when its your main piece of equipment IMO.

some people have a real chip on there shoulder it seems towards start ups…..lets not forget we all started somewhere

[Peter Dee]

Well Marcella, I hope you don’t for one minute think that I was being critical of anyone who bought such an item.
In fact I was offering advice in broad terms either to those that own one or are considering owning one.
It has become obvious through this and other sites that there are multitudes of problems to be encountered when basing a business startup (or even an exiting business) on a "cheap" machine.
With regard to looking down on people, where did Glenn get that from?
I have just stated a fact which is apparent to those with and without these machines.
I hope Glenn you do not put me in the category of looking down on someone.
I clearly stated that the machines have their uses, but for those serious about the sign business, are not the way to go.
Gareth is a point in case who started with one and has now moved on.

Marcella, who exactly has slagged off any owner of these?

We see many post here "which plotter", and I’m sure threads like these will only give aid to those making choices.

Glenn, it’s not so much if and how much help we can give these owners, it’s more a question of are we able, if the majority of serious sign makers are using more mainline cutters (and software).

Luckily I am fairly computer literate and can "fiddle" with things to get them going. Certainly I feel for those who have read all the blurb and believed that a cheaper machine would do as good a job as a more expensive branded machine, as initially they can look like they do just as good a job.
However, even I would be at a loss to try and sort out some of the problems I have read here, which on other brands would either be a simple fix or enjoy the support of a supplier, and a wider user base to call upon.

[Rodney Gold]

The actual problem is that the barriers to entry into the signage industry have dropped so low , anyone can do it , once the masses "give it a go" then the whole standard of the industry gets "tarnished" by fly by nights and ppl undercutting each other.

The problems some members have is that they paid high prices and high school fees to get into this business and are now being undercut and their business is being dilutedby "amateurs" , believe me there is only one pie ,cutting it into a zillion pieces is not good.
The thing is , ppl on this forum are good hearted and alturistic and perhaps giving info so freely is actually cutting their own throats.

However there is another side to this , the real potential is no longer in vinyl cutting , customers expect more like full colour digital printing and thus the days of being able to print money with a simple vinyl cutter are long gone. Its cut throat out there and making a living with a cheap chinese cutter and a few quid of stock , a sheet of abs and some chromodek is actually quite difficult. so once again , the barriers to entry have been raised in that one has mto have a print and cut machine these days to make a little boodle. If you REALLY want to get into signage big time , you need a LOT more than just that , you need a lot of other machinery , premises , infrastructure and staff so barriers to entry are still there.

Same thing is happening in the laser engraving and cutting industry , cheap chinese lasers flooding the market…$2k for something that nomally costs $12k…..
At the moment these machines are really unreliable and nort good for heavy production and those that bought em can really only use em as hobbby machines.

I dont think that anyone who asks for info here should have an expectation that it should be given freely, this site is not about "lets help the newbie to become our competition".
No other businesses do that, they try protect their markets and margins. The place the newbies should go to get start up info and to solve problems with their equipment is the suppliers sites.
But as I said , those that answer and are established are an altruistic bunch, probably too altruistic for their own good…..

[Paul Humble]

I bought a cheapy Foison C24 because all I really intended to do was cut worded website stickers for my numberplate business and a friends website.

I have found myself enjoying the challenge of the whole process and want to learn more and feel that after only a couple of month it is probably time to get a better machine.

However, it could have went the other way and I could have hated the whole process, if that had been the case I would much rather have a £300 machine stuck in the cupboard rather than a couple of grands worth of machine sitting doing nothing.

[David-Foster-]

quote Rodney Gold:

I dont think that anyone who asks for info here should have an expectation that it should be given freely, this site is not about “lets help the newbie to become our competition”.
No other businesses do that, they try protect their markets and margins. The place the newbies should go to get start up info and to solve problems with their equipment is the suppliers sites.
But as I said , those that answer and are established are an altruistic bunch, probably too altruistic for their own good…..

Well said Rodney, I have never understood how helpful this site is to someone with 1 post and who wants to know how to make vinyl signs. True, if you have all moved on to ‘print and cut’ machines, these people will not be taking work off you. We all ask for a bit of advice now and again, but not ask for the whole shooting match.

[John Gregson]

Why not the whole shooting match? As Marcella said, better than sitting on your ar$e claiming benefits. These people you help now might be able to help you with font id or file conversion in the future.

Its strange, when I paid to join this forum I thought it was somewhere where you could gain knowledge and skill as well as give others advice when needed. I have gained alot from this site and offered advice on various topics including pad, screen printing, font ID, pantone to vinyl matching and design layout. Yes I do own a dingtec plotter which I imported myself, set up and have had no problems with. It was an add-on to my screen printing business and it suits my needs perfectly. I did ask some basic questions at first, this was after i’d trawled the boards for 2-3 weeks looking for answers.

If everyone here was scared to give info to competitors this would be a very strange forum indeed with no threads or post – ever :lol1:

John

[Karl Williams]

Marcella,
I trust by the Rabbit comment you are referring to my comments the other day. I don’t have an issue with someone starting off on the cheap so long as they don’t start undercutting on my doorstep. There is a guy 2 minutes away from me who is signing vans up for £80 when in reality the job is worth £250 – £350. This is screwing me big time. I do get p!ssed of when more people are coming on here making out they are serious signmakers, buying crap and asking us for advice so the can undercut us.
Yes start a sign business but don’t sh!t on me then ask me for help.
The best part is the guy up the road doesn’t do signs full time he’s a sprayer. And yes he’s on here probably reading this.

Karl.

[Glenn Sharp]

Peter….my apologies if I got the sentiment of your post wrong but I think the tone of it smacked a bit of snobbery

In life there is cheap & expensive nothing new there. Not everyone can afford the best

Why do you assume that anybody that asks for information about a cheap imported cutter is setting up in the sign industry?…….I’ve seen a lot of posts where one of these cutters is just an add on to an existing business….hauliers using them….sublimation printers looking to expand into printed garments etc etc.

In a lot of cases a Roland or a Graphtec would be overkill for their needs

Why should they not come on here and ask for help if they are struggling about a specific machine? Whether anybody decides to offer them any help is entirely a personal one.

the flip side of this is….If I decided to set out on my own and my budget only allowed for a cheap Chinese import….yes I might have a few questions on setup…..yes I might have a few questions about it’s software…..but once it was setup, I could knock out as good a sign as the next man…….probably better than some with a Roland or Graphtec if I’m going to be totally honest…..I accept that i might run into trouble with the machine but I’m sure most people who buy these machines accept that.

[Peter Dee]

quote glenn:

Peter….my apologies if I got the sentiment of your post wrong but I think the tone of it smacked a bit of snobbery

Peter wrote:
Well if that’s how you read it then try re-reading the whole of the post and don’t just clip bits out and thereby form the wrong impression.

Glenn wrote:
Why do you assume that anybody that asks for information about a cheap imported cutter is setting up in the sign industry?…….

Well let me see…. maybe because they are primarily used in sign making, and the owners have registered with a SIGN FORUM to ask the questions, added to which the hauliers you mention are still using them to make signage surely?.

I’ll simplify it for you.
The gist of the post was to point out the pitfalls of these type of machines and that all that glitters is not gold.
Anyone considering one should be aware of this, facts which I consider to be good advice.

[Peter Normington]

quote glenn:

Why do you assume that anybody that asks for information about a cheap imported cutter is setting up in the sign industry?…….I’ve seen a lot of posts where one of these cutters is just an add on to an existing business….hauliers using them….sublimation printers looking to expand into printed garments etc etc.

I have nothing against cheap imported plotters,

But if you look at the sub heading of this site (created by sign makers, for sign makers)
then why should we be giving advice to Hauliers etc, so they can produce in house rather than buying it?

I’m sure there isnt a Plumbers forum that will tell you how to fit a boiler yourself, or an accountants forum that will tell you how to fill in your tax return.

I dont have a problem given advice to those I think will benefit from it by improving their skills in the sign or related industries.

We see many newbies on the site that ask for advice without so much as an introduction, and feel that maybe it should be compulsory to at least say hello, and give us an insight into the interest they have in signs, before asking for advice.

Many of these people often only post a few times and are never heard of again.

As for people with cheap plotter undercutting the market, that is a different subject, it is just as easy for a company with a £50K printer to knock out cheaper prints, so nothing to do with the equipment used

Peter

[Glenn Sharp]

Peter,

I agree with you re the signmakers…….I just think that it is up to the individual whether they want to reply to a query or not

[Glenn Sharp]

Peter,

I don’t need anything simplifying for me mate……..

whether I’m right or wrong I took your post as a dig at users of cheap Chinese plotters

you might have chosen your words carefully but why else make a post like that.

I’ve got to go out now but I look forward to carrying on this debate later 😀

[Peter Dee]

quote glenn:

Peter,

I don’t need anything simplifying for me mate……..

whether I’m right or wrong I took your post as a dig at users of cheap Chinese plotters

you might have chosen your words carefully but why else make a post like that.

I’ve got to go out now but I look forward to carrying on this debate later 😀

Simple really, and at the risk of repeating myself, I say at the risk of repeating myself, to let possible buyers know the whys and wherefores of what they might be getting in to.

Now if I new nothing about these things and was considering a cheap machine because nobody said ill about them, I certainly would find it interesting if someone pointed out the pro’s and cons.

[Marcella Ross]

quote Peter Dee:

Marcella, who exactly has slagged off any owner of these?

Peter, if you search the boards here you will see that lots of people have had a hard time when they say they have bought a Rabbit or whatever. There has been umpteen threads about it.
Nor am I saying that you are being critical ………. I was replying to the way this topic has progressed, that’s all.

Karl – I mentioned Rabbit for no reason other than that was the first that came to mind.

I just think it’s not a problem to offer help if you can. Like John said, helping someone with a plotter problem now they can be the very person that helps you out with a font ID, a file conversion or whatever.

If people have an aversion to assisting those who have a cheap chinese plotter then I think they simply refrain from posting rather than make an unhelpful comment. It’s happened before. 🙁

Peter, if this wasn’t the way you intended this thread to progress, then I apologise. I too read it a bit like Glenn did.

[Marcella Ross]

quote Karl Williams:

There is a guy 2 minutes away from me who is signing vans up for £80 when in reality the job is worth £250 – £350. This is screwing me big time.

Karl, there is a guy less than a mile from me who has signs up saying ‘Vans lettered for £35’ yes, I’m not joking.
But this ain’t no wee guy with a chinese plotter. He has a big workshop and a large format digital printer!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😮
People are trying to undercut others left right and centre not just those newbies with their Rabbits!

Anyway – it doesn’t matter what equipment they choose to use …… if they buy a cheapie or a Mimaki they have to know what they’re doing.
Besides what about Harry or Jill or others who can make a fab sign with nothing more than a brush and a tin of one-shot!!!! 😕

[Karl Williams]

Harry and Jill are time proven professionals with a gift Marcella.There ability is worth more than a cheapy machine. I’m going from what I’ve read on here and experience Marcie. There are many who by the low end market cutters. I know competition is competition and that’s healthy.
I got more than angry when Last week a possible customer left the shop slagging me off and accusing me of being a rip-off. I like many others have made serious investments in our businesses in a professional industry. I find more and more all the time now cheaper kit – cheaper jobs and the result is an industry going down the pan.
The guy near you knocking out the jobs with a decent kit for next to nothing must be a very busy fool.

[John Gregson]

A busy fool but if he keeps it up year in year out the competition fades away and who is left. I don’t agree with it but its the same in every industry, look at supermarkets for instance. Where I live we had a row of shops, 10 years ago tesco moved in and now all the little shops have went bust or dissappeared.

Karl, I am sorry to hear about your competition problems but everyone here has a plotter, most have a heat press, does this make them t’shirt printers? it does in their customers eyes and thats the kind of competition i’m facing.

[Karl Williams]

John,
I don’t mind competition mate, I really don’t.But most on here must agree that when you’re undercut big time whether it’s my situation or the one Marcella was talking about it’s not good news for any of us. Will we all be doing vans in 2020 for 100 quid to stay afloat?

[John Gregson]

The pricing of a job is a big issue which effects all of us and there seems to be one solution that no one has mentioned yet.

No one can stop anyone buying a Chinese import whether direct of through ebay but consumable suppliers can choose who to deal with. When I first got my plotter I walked into amari and bought vinyl for cash over the counter, same goes with pyramid – no questions were asked if I was actually a printer or signmaker.

There is a hairdressing wholesalers, on the team valley in Gateshead, where I tried to by my wife some GHD straighteners. they wouldn’t deal with me or take my cash as I wasn’t in the trade.

There lies the answer, lobby your suppliers to only deal with the trade, this will stop the supply of consumables to the underpriced cowboys.

[Peter Normington]

Karl, chill out mate,

ignore the busy fools, sell your work on its merits,
I will happily sign a van for £80, I can compete easily with that sort of work, if I want to, simply because I can do it quicker than the busy fool!but only two one colour panels on an escort, no artwork, just text and maybe some crappy clipart 5 mins to set out …. 40 minutes work, ten a day nice little earner.
But I would rather convince the customer to go for something better. and add value for their benefit as well as mine.

Peter

[Peter Normington]

quote John Gregson:

The pricing of a job is a big issue which effects all of us and there seems to be one solution that no one has mentioned yet.

No one can stop anyone buying a Chinese import whether direct of through ebay but consumable suppliers can choose who to deal with. When I first got my plotter I walked into amari and bought vinyl for cash over the counter, same goes with pyramid – no questions were asked if I was actually a printer or signmaker.

There is a hairdressing wholesalers, on the team valley in Gateshead, where I tried to by my wife some GHD straighteners. they wouldn’t deal with me or take my cash as I wasn’t in the trade.

There lies the answer, lobby your suppliers to only deal with the trade, this will stop the supply of consumables to the underpriced cowboys.

John the suppliers already do that, the account price and retail price are usually quite different, buy t6he way do you only sell to chosen customers?

Peter

[Philip Hammerton]

Whether everybody likes it or not, over the last few years the price of electrical equipment has crashed – computers are a quarter the price they used to be – videos, DVD players & TV’s are half the price they used to be – but the point is, even the cheap electrical equipment is of reasonable quality, compared to top brand names.

Plotter / cutters are the same – a chinese cutter will generally perform most vinyl lettering just as well as top of the range Roland cutter.

We also live in a age of everbody dabbling in DIY – whether it is general building / decorating around the house or cutting your own vinyl lettering for your own business / home signmaking. Twenty years ago tradesman such as plumbers & electrictians did all the work to our homes – now you can get materials & instruction from B&Q – Twenty years ago sign companies had the market when it came to the signage trade – We are just in a DIY culture at present time.

[John Gregson]

Hi Peter, Like you I sell to anybody that pays the bill, but do have cheaper rates for trade customers and board members. :lol1:

My prices haven’t gone down at Amari since I started an account with them, maybe they think I’m the Chinese £80/£35 Cowboy. 😉

John

[David Rogers]

Although this thread has deviated a little from the outset…I’m still very much of the opinion to support the forum ‘motto’ “created by sign makers for sign makers” until such times as this changes to "free advice for everybody in any industry and how to set up your new business" I will continue to be a little wary of non-signmakers out for an easy buck. Obviously not all people seeking new-start advice fall into the category of a ‘ten bob’ plotter and a ‘pieces of eight’ collection of software. I’m certainly not going to set someone up on my doorstep with my years of experience at their disposal via this forum…and certainly baulk at the idea of doing the same to another member. ‘We’ had to earn our stripes and establish ourselves & our reputations, this forum is an absolute god-send to dig other signmakers out of jams & save production time between a group of what I do not lightly call ‘colleagues’. As said – any other business field is a LOT more closed to ‘outsiders’ to maintain the professional core expertise. Any muppet can go to B&Q and buy a set of Draper Budget tools & a £5 DIY manual…it takes a craftsman to produce something of beauty time & again.

NOTHING at all against the cheap setup either – I’ve considered one as a backup to sit in a cupboard. The plotter would cost me less than I would lose in revenue if my Summa went belly-up – however unlikely that is!!

Re the £50 / £80 or whatever livery…they rarely last more than a year…rarely if ever get repeat business…often end up on the run from the Inland Revenue & their suppliers. Every town has them – I’ll even tell my customers about them "sure you CAN get it done for £50…and if price is your only concern I’ll do you block black text down each side for the same…but it will look cheap…because it IS cheap…" Not once have I lost a livery down to price…have lost them because it was just too much hard work dealing with idiot customers and I’m no fool. "I can get it done in (insert town) for the same…what can you knock off the price?"…"On you go then…’cos that’s still my price". If I lose a couple of jobs a week like this I don’t care, it’s the sort of eejit you don’t want anyway!

Dave

[John Childs]

Nice post Dave.

[Dave Harrison]

I think the main problem is that the same questions regarding cheap cutters are being asked over and over again! People are not taking the time to search the forums, I’m sure i’ve seen more than one detailed thread on "how to set up a cheap cutter blah blah blah. .. !"

I personally get more offended by the "how do I make an outline ?" or "how do I make a drop shadow!" questions. These sort of questions might have been valid 15-20 years ago with the introduction of vinyl plotters, but in this day and age surely anyone buying a plotter (for business or pleasure) should have a basic understanding of computer created artwork !

How much one spends on a machine is up to them, at the end of the day plotters and printers are just tools, it doesn’t matter if they cost £100 or £1000, its the knowledge, ability and creativity that are of real value.

[Dave Harrison]

LoL btw hugh that wasn’t a pop at you ! 😀

[Peter Munday]

I see no reason to worry about the cheap plotters that are flooding the market at the moment as it comes down to what you do with it that matters. A good example (though not cut vinyl) was from Richards topic the other day where a customer gave him this artwork.
https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=33985
a clear case of no reason to worry.

Peter

[Glenn Sharp]

Dave,

I’ve been on here since 03…..the same questions get asked over and over again on nearly every subject. It’s how you react to them that makes UKSB such a popular place to be

Is it right that I should put up a post giving all the negatives of buying cheap vinyl?

Is it right that I should put up a negative post about the the various brands of composite aluminium?

There are a whole host of subjects that me as a signmaker for the past 20 years could make in a negative way but I don’t ….You could try and advise every newcomer to the way you believe things should be done but it doesn’t mean your right….there isn’t one way and one way only to skin a cat

I would challenge anybody in their first few months as a signmaker ….with a Graphtec, Roland or any other make of well known cutter you care to name……make a better sign than I would make on rabbit or P cut…..It simply isn’t down to the machinery you use….it’s down to ability

[Glenn Sharp]

Peter Dee

I noticed you made a post the other day calling some one condescending

I find your posts condescending in the extreme…….I can assure you I don’t need anything simplifying…….I simply don’t agree with you….Is that ok?

I realise this is not in the spirit of UKSB…..but pompous posts really get my back up….better not to say anything sometimes than hide behind a veiled post

[John Childs]

quote glenn:

I would challenge anybody in their first few months as a signmaker ….with a Graphtec, Roland or any other make of well known cutter you care to name……make a better sign than I would make on rabbit or P cut…..It simply isn’t down to the machinery you use….it’s down to ability

Very true Glenn, but there are also different types of business to consider. I rely on volume; cutters running out metre after metre of vinyl for hour after hour. I don’t think I’d be prepared to risk my business on cheap Chinese cutters.

Especially as good machines aren’t expensive. As I’ve said elsewhere; a decent cutter for a grand, if it only works for it’s two year warranty then blows up big time, it will only have cost you a tenner a week. That’s serious peanuts for something that will turn out tens, or even hundreds, of thousands of poundsworth of product in that same time.

When you consider that, in reality, a good cutter will probably last ten years, the cost of ownership becomes derisory. We spend more on tea and biscuits every week than our cutters cost us.

[John Childs]

Regarding undercutting and people doing vans on the cheap, there is another side to that too…….

I won’t do anything ridiculously cheap, but I bet some of you would be surprised at just how low a price we can do a van for. Some of you might be appalled at our prices, but I can assure you that we do make good money out of them. The reason is that our major cost in any job is labour and by specialising we are quick and efficient and can minimise that expense.

On the other hand, I wouldn’t expect to be able to compete on price with many of you on signs, mugs, T shirts etc. Banners I won’t look at because I can buy them in cheaper than I can make them.

[Glenn Sharp]

John,

I don’t disagree with you but I feel the nature of the post was just a dig at anybody that decided to buy a ‘cheap plotter’……and I won’t be convinced otherwise.

You have a successful business ….probably built around quality machinery…..but that doesn’t mean that anybody that starts out with a cheap Chinese import is doomed to failure either.

As I’ve said before….I’ve seen designs on here before by people with expensive set ups that I’ve had to sit back and think ‘are they serious’….the cost of the set up is totally irrelevant….it’s the ideas and commitment behind the machinery that’s important

[John Childs]

I think we are on the same wavelength Glenn, just looking at it from slightly different angles.

There may well be a place for cheap cutters, and I wouldn’t knock anybody for trying one as a starter machine, but beyond that I read on here about all the problems people have with them and wonder, if they are running a serious concern, how they can afford the downtime. Late deliveries and unreliability would soon finish my business.

When I started I had a maintenance contract on my cutter because I needed same day guaranteed repair if anything went wrong. How many have one of those today? Not many I’ll bet. 🙂

I certainly agree that good work can be turned out with a Rabbit, and good work is essential, but I think that there is more to running a successful business than that.

[Jason Xuereb]

I started with a $600 Chinese cutter. Half the cost of that was in freight to get it to my door.

2 years on I now have a Roland Sp540v and our own warehouse/factory. Before having that cutter all I had bought is a book on laying vinyl. I still have it at home somewhere.

I remember my first vinyl fitting job. God it was a mess. I had to float coat a 2 metre sign with 1200mm vinyl 3 metres in the air on a ladder. What a mess. Took me hours to do.

Now I would just have created a dibond panel gone on site and screwed it in place.

[Mike Fear]

My first cutter was a PNC1000 – it was about fourth or fifth hand when I bought it ( IIRC I paid around £700 for it ), and its still going strong and getting plenty of use. This machine is now something like 10+ years old – I wouldnt like to say that the cheaply made plastic chinese cutters would last very long in a business environment where they are being used every day.

I have no problem with people buying them to start off and see how they get on – BUT – I can see how people get annoyed by the multiple posts from people asking how to set them up ( surely this is the job of the supplier ? If I have a problem with my SP I phone Roland who I bought it from, and pay for the warranty support, and they sort it out ) and the MANY posts from people saying they have bought one and are running it from Flexi or some other £2000 software package.

I dont think long term it will damage our industry that much as a lot of the people who buy these a) dont really know what they are doing, so are limited in what they can offer customers – basic text and clipart at best, or whatever they can find on Brands Of The World etc… and b) make so little profit that they are either fiddling the tax and doing it on the side, or can only ever do it as a sideline.

There was a sign shop opened down the road from me with a big sign saying ‘vans signed for £75’ – often saw a few really crappy old vans outside being worked on, but a few months after opening he was gone.

A very typical ‘newbie’ business mistake – thinking that undercutting everyone means that you will steal all the business in the area and make a killing – just doesn’t happen. There is always a set amount of business in any area, and it will be spread between the various companies. The cheapo signwriter ends up just getting 10% or whatever of the available business, but is making next to nothing on the jobs, so quickly goes under.

[John Childs]

quote Jason Xuereb:

I remember my first vinyl fitting job. God it was a mess. I had to float coat a 2 metre sign with 1200mm vinyl 3 metres in the air on a ladder. What a mess. Took me hours to do.

Had to laugh at that Jason, because inexperience actually played into my hands.

I started by fitting customer supplied vinyl kits to vans and, when asked for a quote had no idea, and admitted as much to the customer. We agreed that I would fit the first one for free, see how long it took, and then set a fair price. Well, I struggled and the first van took me three hours, so we agreed a price on that basis.

Of course, the more I did the faster I got, and very quickly I was doing them in half the time, or less, so it turned out to be a very good earner.

I built up a good relationship with that customer, and very quickly got the job to make the kits as well. Did all their work for twelve years, but lost it when they were taken over.

[John Gregson]

"Join us next week, same place, same time, on

POST IT!, SIT BACK, & ENJOY

Next weeks topics, Religion, Politics and Football

:lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:

[John Gregson]

Sorry John, you just got your post in before mine.

Had a very similar story with a company that started at the same time as me. I was a complete novice on vehicle lettering but did all their stickers and promo printing. Took on all there vans and then panicked but got through it with the help of the people on these boards. The company has since moved up and onto bigger premises, employed someone to deal with print and purchasing and I lost the contract to someone closer to their new factory. Shame as it was a good contract. 😕

[Michael Dunn]

perhaps i could make a suggestion

as this topic rises time and time again – and gets people worked up – would it not be a good idea for uksb to create a ‘chinese plotter’ section.

then anyone with problems would be able to post there – and anyone who didn’t want to be associated with them could stay away – and those willing to help could offer help and advice.

i originally bought a chinese rabbit, set it up myself, and realised within weeks two things,
1 – what i wanted to use it for was viable
2 – that i did need a better quality machine

i got a roland and couldn’t be happier.

in business it is essential to mitigate losses – and at the outset it is prudent to tread carefully.
i do think there is a lot of hostility towards anyone not ‘established’ for at least x years.
and i can’t see why.

i have an industrial unit – pay business rates – and have a traders policy.
but i understand those who have been trading for many years from home.

live and let live – its a big world and you will only survive if you provide a decent service.

[Jason Xuereb]

Hey John,

I should have done that 😀 would of been my most expensive sign to date.

Jason

[Steve Underhill]

I was fortunate enough to have been able to afford a new GX-24, good heat press, etc and was already designing for years, so my step into the sign game 3 years ago was maybe more prepared than the guys with the Chinese plotters, but as mentioned above its the person designing the work not the cutter that makes a nice job, if a designer with 4 years of art college under his belt leaves with very little money, and buys a cheap plotter to get him started then fair play, he has the knowledge and skills to start his entry into the trade with a distinct advantage, he knows what looks nice and more importantly probably values his time!

However if some guy who has no clue about the sign game or any design skills buys one and starts undercutting everybody by a lot of money then that is a different story, fair enough they have made a break into a different trade, good on them for trying, but at least take the time to develop a few fundamental skills before you come here and try to obtain all the info off people that have earned it in a common manner, IE hard work.
A guy in our town has done it, hes tried all sorts of things now hes on something else for the summer as its better paid, in winter hell be back doing cheap foamex signs and vans for a hundred quid, they come and go and nobody has the right to stop them,
Their work generally speaks volumes about them and they get less and less busy due to a bad reputation, I know there are a few exceptions to the rule but in general someone who produces consistent crap ends up getting their old day job back.

So at the end of the day, don’t slag off people buying cheap plotters slag off the people who want everything for nothing and take no time in learning the basic skills of our trade, the ones with the cheap plotters that at least try their best to fit in and learn have my full support.

[Adam Ross]

hi all

i myself set up about a year ago with a cheap chinese cutter, when i bought the machine i was not even thinking of going into this business it was to make some stickers for my own motorbikes. 12 months on i have just bought an adkins heat press and a graphtec cutter, we all have to start somewhere !!

[James40]

Hi Peter, I agree. I have a Foison and I have no heep of trouble. The PC keeps telling me that the device is not connected. It will work today and tomorrow morning after switching PC on and off it won’t work, It will work this morning and not this afternoon with out switching the PC off. It does my head in and when I speak to tech support I get told it is an unstable PC thats when I got through to them. I will be investing in a better plotter next year. In fact that reminds me when I bought blades for mine they got lost in the post and I was told that they had done their bit and it was out of their hands and the phone was hung up on me.

[Paul Humble]

Your right James, Foisons tech support are woeful, my C24 only lasted about 3 weeks before I gave in and bought a Graphtec. I would have got a better response from tech support if I had posted my message i a bottle and threw it in the sea.

The Foison is now a coathanger in the bedroom at home and its not even that good at doing that.

[James40]

quote Paul Humble:

Your right James, Foisons tech support are woeful, my C24 only lasted about 3 weeks before I gave in and bought a Graphtec. I would have got a better response from tech support if I had posted my message i a bottle and threw it in the sea.

The Foison is now a coathanger in the bedroom at home and its not even that good at doing that.

:lol1: I’m about to test the aerodynamics of it, I thin ka shall launch it out an upstairs window to see how well it glides 👿

[Dave Parkin]

Almost 5 months this has been going on, some are frowning on others, some are gettin rubbed up the wrong way, I am in Derby, and I am associated with about 5 other signmakers, we all get on, nobody round here is afraid of competition, if I need something, I go to any one of them, and they do the same.
The only kit that anyone needs is the kit to provide the services they want to provide, my Roland camm 1 is about ten years old, still going strong. I have been doing cut vinyl only for about 5-6 yrs now, anyone that says no-one wants that anymore is dreamin, my army of hairy a…ed builder customers aint never gonna pay £1500 quid for a wrap, and I aint never gonna offer them one, I make good money and my service is excellent.
Being a ‘newbie in membership terms’ doesn’t mean you’re not clued up
and shouldn’t be an issue for any ‘gold member’.
Regarding cheap plotters, anyone willing to go out and look for punters will pay for it in a week or less. If it lasts 6 months brilliant you’re in a position to upgrade. ps. I would help anyone, newbie or not.

[James40]

You’re right Dave. This for me is a sideline my real job is Rock n’ Roll, and not something small either we are big and we have to rely on the competetion for equipment we don’t own.
I just struggle with my plotter as the software or PC seems to be unstable and I can’t get to the root of the problem. I just wonder if it was not worth my while to go for a better more known plotter, but hey it’s my first and as you said it’s paid for and I’ll upgrade to a better one next year. But for now it’ll do me fine.

[Peter Normington]

quote Dave Parkin:

I would help anyone, newbie or not.

Dave mate, I am a bit quiet at the moment, would you mind pm’ing me your customer list? 😉

I to will help if I think people are genuine, but to often I have seen people on the boards ask for help on a short term basis, and then never to be seen again,
I am always a bit wary of newbies, and would rather try to learn a bit more about them before disclosing information which may be to a local competitor. these boards are, as Dave Rogers pointed, by signmakers, for signmakers.

Cheap dosnt always mean bad, and I have always argued that point.
Peter

Peter

[Paul Humble]

When I first joined here I was a bedroom trader with a CCP (cheap chinese plotter for future ref). I was so frustrated with it that in a weird way it pushed me to get a better machine within weeks (as already posted) and get into the trade full time.

Im a million miles away from alot of the people on here, but im learning. I do understand now why the members of UKSB get frustrated at things like this when bedroom traders start undercutting them by frankly ludicrous amounts.

I wouldnt go out and install a new ring main to someones house then ask on an Electricians forum for guidance if I knew I was costing some of the full time sparks business when I had an alternative career to fall back on.

Its only now, looking back that I can see that, and I now see just how hard it is to do this full time with overheads to pay. This site has alot of good and wise people who are willing to help if you dont take libertys.

Even Mr Normington helped me out with something as simple as how to overlay vinyl, ive taken that advice and moved on from there.

I dont think the argument is about CCP’s, its about how they are used in the industry.

[Dave Parkin]

Peter, I have to confess m8, I don’t come on that often myself but ya pay ya money and don’t expect some of the frowning that goes on, If it happened to me I wouldn’t be happy, and negativity breeds too, and at the moment that should be the last thing goin on. Personally the Cre.. Cr…. dont bother me, I just go out and find whatever work I need, and actually enjoy looking for it. I get that most of you guys are true pro’s but I’m a newbie and pretty good too.
That don’t mean ya can have my customer list, and ya prob couldnt live on the money 😉

[Lee Attewell]

It’s a bit like living inside a funnel isn’t it? This sign industry?

The good stick to the walls and the rest fall down the hole 🙂

Me for one…Started at home with a GCC plotter…Sign Wizard and a love of Signage and design.

Now I’ve got a massive mortgage…Five employees 350 Metres square of workshop, about half a mil worth of equipment …

I love it 🙂

Oh did I mention…Most of what I’ve learn’t is from Trial and error…And This SITE!

Keep up the great work folks.

[Peter Mindham]

quote Peter Normington:

quote Dave Parkin:

I would help anyone, newbie or not.

Cheap dosnt always mean bad, and I have always argued that point.
Peter

Peter

Quite agree Peter. Remember too, expensive doesn’t always mean good either.

Peter

[Gordon Ellis]

I am a wee bit offended with some of the comments here. It looks as though some posters don’t like us guys that have cheap cutters and we are not welcome on this forum. I have a Chinese cutter from Ebay which works very well. It actually cost less than my Craft Robo. Granted it is not a Graphtec but it is getting me going in this business as far as I want to at the moment.
I started with printing T Shirts with a cheap Clam press, but I now have a quality press from Magic Touch. I am in an Indoor Market and most of my work is from fellow traders wanting signs for their units.

Gordon

[Ian Muir]

Many aspects to this

Chief one I think is that now you can buy a cheap plotter and cheap PC and cheap software (copied or not) for perhaps as little as £500. They all do the job to an extant and with this you can sit in a bedroom and call yourself a sign maker and undercut all the established guys easily, usually until you have some experience and understanding, (some never gain this) you produce crap signs for little money.

When I started the cheapest plotter was £2000+, the cheapest pc likewise, software £500….. you had to be pretty committed to think about setting up.

However I started into signs from sign writing in paint my own vehicle (pretty badly) as an alarm fitter.

Then had market stall cutting keys, which led to engraving, which led to an opening to look at buying a plotter + pc + software…… stood me in good stead ever since.

I would never knock a ‘newbie’ but know that some of them will never really hack it, and in process will take lots of work off established business but that’s the way of it in present climate.

I would give advice to stay away from cheap chinese (minimotos ha ha ) although a plotter is a relatively simple piece of kit to copy, you can make one yourself… rather buy second hand ‘branded’ at first……

Whoops someone at door, possibly the bailif, better go…….

Ian 😀 😀

[Saph-D]

Hiyas,

When I started off I bought a flat bed heat press from ebay and landed smack on my feet with it. It was a newish GK combo press which I bought for £350 and had cost £900 new a few months previous – the owner had bought it with redundancy money and had hoped / expected to get an income immediately from it – and didn’t. It is still going strong 6 years later and is superb.

I then bought a mug press – a chinese one which is still going strong. Then a Jarins mug press, then a gk mug press and a mug oven. Then another two GK flat presses and a plate press.

Then I bought a chinese plotter which is great, has never given me any issues and which won’t be changed til I have the money to buy a versacamm or something similar.

Those made me enough money to buy a gerber edge from a member on here which in turn is doing wonders.

The increase in income allowed me to purchase an embroidery machine, single head, 10 needle.

From these ( which I still have and still use ) I recently moved up to buying a dtg printer – which is a BEAUT.

All of those allowed me to buy a ukulele recently – and guess what, I am new to ukes and so bought the cheapest so I could see how I would get on with it. My little £20 babe is giving me a LOT of pleasure and santa now knows that I would like a good model of the same.

I joined a forum with people playing ukes that have cost £100’s and £100’s of moolah but they are all very willing to help me get the most out of the cheapey I have here.

This is what I feel is vital in life, regardless of what industry you are in, what your income is, what your social class or creed is:-

Just help people get the best out of what they have and help them to move forward and upward. Your advice is invaluable, I have learned a huge amount from reading these forums – I will be back asking for advice on vinyl printer/cutters when I am ready and will listen to what is said.

I am 100% behind Marcella’s comments.

Besides, you never know, the person who has the £450 chinese cutter might also be the one who has the mechanical knowledge to help you repair your van.

I love the fish analogy.

So – I have a cheap chinese cutter, an expensive embroidery machine and a hellishly costly dtg printer, I’m clever enough to know I am not being stupid in having the ‘ccp’ I’m being wise enough to know that it is serving itself well and will be replaced when the need arises.

Good and interesting thread – I’m of the thinking that if we are able to help we should, regardless of the quality of the material the person has who is asking, owns.

Saph
🙂

[Gordon Ellis]

Well said Saph-D

[Graeme Harrold]

I could say I started cheap, but I shelled out £4K plus on a small engraving machine, (same machine new is £8K +VAT) it doesn’t do everything but made me realise you don’t need to do everything. Its a flat bed and therefore can only handle shallow curves. For an extra £2.5K I could have had a machine to do cylindrical items, but to date I would not have come close to making that outlay back.

I have since been asked to produce larger signage and 12 months ago I bought a JagIII from Grafityp………….It is a Chineese cutter and has some suspect choice of materials in the construction, but it is reliable and Ive only had to call the engineer out once (fantastic response). Many of the fleabay Chineese cutters uses the same parts, chassis etc. bit like the difference between an Audi and a Skoda (same parts, slightly different build tolerance). Its very costly to design something from the ground up, test them produce therefore many suppliers build from off the shelf parts.

To produce a good finished product the base design must be right. I have seen too many signs where fonts don’t line up (esp script fonts) and have been blown up to show these faults in all their glory. My favourite fault is overlapping letters that are cut without either welding or altering the kerning!!!

My analogy is "you don’t need snap-on tools to fix a car well" If you do you either have to fix alot of cars or charge more to get your investment back. What you do need to do a job well is knowledge of your applied skills and the ability to recognise the limitations of you equipment and work with them :lol1:

I think the thing that gets most peoples backs up are those that have not purchased a machine from a supplier with warranty back-up and expect those that have to put it right. The least they can do is purchase a membership to show willing…………

[Karl Williams]

Christ!! Who pulled this one out of the sack again? 🙄 🙄

[Gwaredd Steele]

Haha, glad they did mate, as I was going to post a similar thing. I have a Roland CAM 300 (760mm) & had it for about 10 years with no problems – fantastic machine, but I am currently doing more & more 1220mm jobs. I would love a 2nd hand Roland, but can’t find any about, so I had a look on eBay & noticed you can get a brand new Ling Long 1220mm plotter for £299 inc delivery! Surely gotta be worth a punt at that price, as it would only come out every now & then.

Surely that’s the point of these el cheapo machines? Occasional use & bedroom eBay sticker sellers. Would take a brave man to put all his trust in a Ling Long to run his business IMO.

Ta,

Gwaredd.

[Karl Williams]

quote Gwaredd Steele:

I had a look on eBay & noticed you can get a brand new Ling Long 1220mm plotter for £299 inc delivery!

Gwaredd.

Ling Long? never heard of one but I do know you can get a good ting tong down the road for 25 quid! Sorry…..am I bringing down the tone again??? 😀 😀 😉

[Graeme Harrold]

quote Karl Williams:

quote Gwaredd Steele:

I had a look on eBay & noticed you can get a brand new Ling Long 1220mm plotter for £299 inc delivery!

Gwaredd.

Ling Long? never heard of one but I do know you can get a good ting tong down the road for 25 quid! Sorry…..am I bringing down the tone again??? 😀 😀 😉

Down????? Rock Bottom more like it :lol1: 🙄 :lol1: 😮

[Glenn Sharp]

I’d be surprised if they last 5 minutes

[Karl Williams]

quote Glenn Sharp:

I’d be surprised if they last 5 minutes

No….Ting tong can go for over an hour. (so I’m told) 😳

[John Thomson]

There is a great deal of people who slag off anything Chinese on this site……fact is that the vast majority of consumer items are manufactured there..turn the mouse in your hand over…….bet that even if it is an ‘expensive ‘ one that it says made in China….my £30 Logitec does!…..almost all mobile phones including the ipod are Chinese manufactured…SWF embroidery have a manufacturing facility there….the list of ‘brand’ names who manufacture there is endless

Chinese plotters are like everything else…there are good and bad…..most are clones of old Roland machines and while very basic will track and cut true when properly set up…this is the main problem as a large number of people who buy them have never seen one up close never mind set one up……..the USB ports on them are rarely genuine USB…….most are USB to serial converters …………people throw a fit when they realise they are not plug and play like desktop printers.

I imported heat press items direct from the Chinese manufacturer and am delighted with the results…Jason, Warren and Chris decided to follow in my footsteps and after a little teething trouble are all, I believe, equally delighted.

Remember that China is the largest market for signs in the world…… far bigger that the US…..all manufactured in China on Chinese made machinery. If local support is important to you rather than doing any problem solving yourself they buy from a UK supplier……

[Phill Fenton]

Well my own opinion is that the majority of equipment is now made in China. MY Cadet printer (as far as I know) was built in China and has proved itself to be a reliable and well built machine. So I wouldn’t rule out any Chinese built machinery as being worthless. More and more western companies sub contract their manufacturing to China with great results.

I’m a little bit afraid that it’s a case of the "emperors new clothes" here. We are conditioned to believe that the best machines are the branded items (Roland, summa, graphtec etc.) when in reality these are probably mostly sourced from china (or at least built using Chinese manufactured components).

I think that the problems arise when an inexperienced buyer buys a non branded plotter and has no back up to install the machine and make it work. Hence the advice to buy from a reputable dealer who will both install the machine and provide backup.

For someone that is computer savvy and knows what he is doing – I suspect a non branded Chinese plotter is a bargain. I further suspect that there is a great opportunity for someone to build a business supplying and providing support for non branded Chines plotters.

[Paul Humble]

John, Phill, you have both hit a very valid point about people not seeing plotters close up first when buying and having problems with the Chinese stuff. Now that ive used my Graphtec for 6 month or so I think I could turn my hand back to the Foison and sort out the problems that I couldnt before. The only issue I had with the Foison cutter that I think would still cause me problems was the interface would work fine on minute, then refuse to play ball the next.

[Shane Drew]

I have no issue at all with whatever people buy, chinese or japanese.

My only issue is with people who choose to buy on fleabay, for next to nothing with no support, then post their installation issues or problems on here for free help.

Then, you never hear from them again.

They buy a cheap cutter, need help from experienced users with no expectation to pay for it, then they go out and compete with us undercutting the price to make a quid.

Its not that they are chinese made, cheap and nasty or anything like that. Its the expectation of fee help because they didn’t want to pay for the after sales support from a supplier.

End of the day, you get what you pay for. After sales support is a gamble. Like travel insurance. Most times you pay for it and you don’t use it. But when they day comes that you need help, the expense is worth every cent.

[Chris Wool]

phill as far as i know the versacam cadet was built like its bigger brothers in japan by one person, from the first part to the last.

i have a few china produced items and generally pleased with them only because of the price paid,

chris

[Ian Muir]

You people are beginning to concern me, lucky it is a sign forum, a site to find out about sign stuff…… I can choose to ignore the ignorant bigotry or simply smile at the simplistic philosophical bull that issues forth….

Ian :lol1:

[Glenn Sharp]

quote Glenn Sharp:

I’d be surprised if they last 5 minutes

just for record that post was a bad attempt at humour in connection with Karls post

I’ve made my feelings perfectly clear at the start of this thread

[Shane Drew]

quote Chris Wool:

phill as far as i know the versacam cadet was built like its bigger brothers in japan by one person, from the first part to the last.

chris

Thats what I was lead to believe too. There is a video on you tube I think showing the assembly of each machine. The unit doesn’t leave the desk of the woman that is assigned the job initially.

[Karl Williams]

If someone is setting up a legit business then fine. Buy the cheaper kit and get on your feet. What spikes me is when you get the odd one who has bought a cheap machine but doesn’t run a sign business. They want us to teach them how to do their own vans. Secondly if someone buys one of these machines with no back-up then really they’re a fool to themselves. The back-up is in the price with the dearer machines which we pay for. So why should someone who decides not to pay for back-up receive it for free off someone who has paid for it. This doesn’t apply to all buyers of the cheaper kits but most buy a crappy kit and use this site to their own gain but offer nothing in return. This is why I take the p!ss cos these people take the p!ss out of us.

[Paul Humble]

I set up my very small, modest company in March with nothing more than ambition and blind foolishness. The same month I posted on this topic, I cant believe im still posting on it now!!! lol

Feel the love!!

[John Thomson]

guys as someone who owns a Chinese plotter…trust me I get hacked off reading ‘help me’ first posts by newbies to this site and sign making in general……..
circumstances for me dictated that this was the temporary road I had to go down………i was used to a Mimaki and fully intend to get back to that level of quality as soon as I can……. believe that you should always buy the best that you can afford…..just don’t whinge about it if you have to put in some ground work if you buy cheap!

john

[Karl Williams]

Maybe there should be a business start-up section on here. Just a thought. 🙄

[Paul Humble]

John, I cant reply to your pm mate as ive not been sent the upgrade link to make me UKSG yet. Ill email you when I get back to work and have your email addy at hand.

[Shane Drew]

quote Ian Muir:

You people are beginning to concern me, lucky it is a sign forum, a site to find out about sign stuff…… I can choose to ignore the ignorant bigotry or simply smile at the simplistic philosophical bull that issues forth….

Ian :lol1:

I’ve been called many things but its the first time I’ve been called philosophical 🙄

[Chris Wool]

yes a first for me to Shane 😀

[David Rogers]

quote Ian Muir:

You people are beginning to concern me, lucky it is a sign forum, a site to find out about sign stuff…… I can choose to ignore the ignorant bigotry or simply smile at the simplistic philosophical bull that issues forth….

Ian :lol1:

People are in this thread to express their opinions about the purchase, use and sometimes the users of such item as cheap Chinese plotters. Good…or bad.

Until such times as personal opinions become outlawed the philosophical will continue to express free thought…be it simplistic, ignorant or bigoted!

…oops! is THAT the time! Ah well…it’s not a school night :lol1:

[Paul Humble]

Well ive stayed up so long that im tempted to watch the Calzaghe fight now!

[Glenn Sharp]

that’s the only reason I’m still up

[Paul Humble]

quote Glenn Sharp:

that’s the only reason I’m still up

But ive run out of beer and im starting to sober up. I feel like the reformed version of Barney from the Simpsons.

[Glenn Sharp]

😀

aye….my hangover’s starting to kick in 🙄