can anyone please give us their views on various printers

[Rodney Gold]

Thats a question that can take a book to answer , basically the Rolands or their converted versions (to full solvent) are the best bet out there today (IMHO – I have a Soljet 540 proII ex which has given exemplary service over some time) Tons of posts re mild solvent OEM vs convered full solvent ink machines on the boards , so read em and make up your own mind which way to go.
IMHO the Roland SP540V is the best compromise in terms of reliablity , price , width and speed for a sign shop doing medium production.
Budget for about a 1/3rd of the cost of the machine for a decent laminator if you want to do wraps or printing that has to survive in harsh conditions whichever printer you buy (this does not just apply to eco sol vs full solvents , it applies to any digital printer)
I dont think the JV3 cuts or does it?
If you intend to do high volume large scale printing and limited cutting , its worth while looking at a higher speed lower resolution machine that can use cheap solvent inks with a bulk feed system and buying a seperate cutter.
Use the 1/2 x2 rule – IE whatever sales ppl tell you are the costs , x2 and whatever they tell you are the speeds or benefits , 1/2. If it makes sense using this formula go for it.
Do your homework well before buying , not just machine wise , but market wise etc. Digital printing is not an intuitive follow on from vinyl cutting etc and if you want to do it well , the learning curve is steep. There are all sorts of other costs associated with this too , most machines will need a minder when printing , a good designers , someone with colour theory , you need to promote the service , market it and obviously have the anxcillairy machinery to add value to the product (the money is made in finished items , not raw printiond , so you might need a panel saw to cut large boards and so on.)
The range of materials too is vast , cheaper is not normally better here , do your homework there too – We print various banner , paper , meshes , fabrics , HTM , backlit , blockout , a huge range of vinyl , up to 1mm thick rigids like styrene and abs , contravision etc and all these come in many grades and qualities. Often whats best is to use what the various manfgrs of machines promote in materials rather than save a few cents on untried and untested and unprofiled cheaper stuff.
Ultimately , you need to take your files , your media and ask the mnfgrs/sellers to demo it in front of you. You will soon get an idea of quality , speed and ease of use.
Backup and support are what should sway you – you dont want to be sold a machine and left an orphan , you need the seller to hand hold and guide you a lot in the first few months if you new to the field.

[Robert Lambie]

couldnt agree more with rodney, much quicker reply from me, but would advise on cadet or grenadeir for a fast print & cut machine all in one, im sure JV3 doesnt cut as i looked at buying one, but it does print direct onto rigid board, but only 2-3mm i think. there are various packages on the go on other solvent machines, combined with opus cutter and laminator, how good or bad they are i dont know. ive had our grenadier nearly a year now and we are still learning. 😀

[Adrian Hewson]

We have a Roland SC540EX which prints and cuts like a dream. We use bulk feed and from the start have used Ink Technologies ink but constantly seem to be having problems with magenta. Looking to convert in the near future to full solvent.

The most important thing about digtal printers is the profile fo the material you use (more important than the vinyl)

Regards ADrian

[Andrew Boyle]

The new generation JV3 prints and cuts, however i think it’s only the smaller version at the moment…..we bought the JV3 160SP and the plotter, although new to the digital side of things I’m very happy with the results [although they take up a lot of space]

someone I know who works for a large company did all the homework and I just copied his decision….[and I guess if something goes wrong with the Mutoh plotter we can use the new one]

I’m probably not the best person to speak to, however that’s the route I went down.

Hope it helps

Cheers

Andrew

😀

[David McPhillips]

Thanks for the advise fellas, i think we have made up our minds that we are going for a full solvent printer rather than Eco-solvent. Out of the 3 machines we have viewed i have to say the mimaki was the best print quality i didn’t really think much of the versacam quality and durability. The quality on the cadet i thought was quite good but the demonstrator had citrus inks in which gave me a powerful headache during the demonstration, the only thing about the cadet was we were looking to go for a wider machine and when we asked about the grenadier the demonstrator didn’t seem to want to say much about it except it it was more awkward to use and takes more maintenance is this true????

when we viewed the mimaki they were doing use a package which included a 4 foot plotter i think the total package was around £20,000.

the things that concerned us was, having to keep the machine powered 24-7, the constant spitting of inks when not printing and they said if the heads blocked up it would cost a £1000 a head to replace.

We have a Gerber plotter 650 fastrack at the moment but were told we needed their plotter as it had a laser to pick up the cutting points.

does anyone know if the cadet and grenadier print well on paper as we are looking to print billboards and poster as well as vinyl and banners???

[Shane Drew]

I have a Roland 540 proII that has been converted to Techink full solvent printing.

Very happy with both the printer and the inks.

I compared the same file on the same material, on the JV3 and the proII, and the Roland came out on top in my opinion.

I print paper posters, but the result depends a lot on the quality of the paper. My posters I print are for cheap promotions, so the client is buying on price rather than quality. Having said that, the client is more than happy with the results on paper so far.

Cheers

[lubo1972]

I don’t agree for JV3. It is only prints. Mimaki have decision http://www.mimaki.co.jp/english/sg/cutting/cg-fx/index.php but with two machines. Only Roland have print/cut devices. I think Graphtec also have but it seems that is not working well. Because they discontinued it.

[Andrew Boyle]

Lubo you’re absolutely right I re-read the Print and cut feature in Sign Link after your post….misleading

Cheers

Andrew

[asifnmalik]

Hi

the mimaki only prints, they are pushing a printer and cutter package for around the £10k mark, saw this last year at a trade show at Olympia. Complete waste of time and space for us but may be ok for someone else. At the moment the best solution is to go with one of the Roland machines, and by this I would suggest the grenadier from B&P, we have started to get problems with our Versacamm 54 that we did not foresee, they have to be protected for outdoor use but a decent laminater will solve this. If you go with the grenadier then you must make allowances for the True solvents environmental requirements, such as a a very good extraction system. We have our versacamm in a small office in the middle of our building without windows so we went with roland.

Sorry for the waffle, but in short GO WITH A B&P GRENADIER.

[David McPhillips]

HEY FELLAS KEEP THE GOOD ADVISE COMING IM TAKING IT ALL ON BOARD AND APPRECIATE YOU TAKING THE TIME TO HELP ME OUT… 😀

I understand that the Mimaki is only a printer and id need the seperate cutter as it was the 1st printer i looked at this did not bother me as long as i could still contour cut.
But now having seen the print and cut on one machine it would save more time and space.

I have to say the thing that impressed me at the cadet demonstration was they used the same 610mm 5-7 year vinyl to print on as we use for cutting on our plotter and the quality was very good.
Bad points were they never showed use on either the versacamm nor the cadet printing on standard poster paper nor banner material.

does anyone know if full solvent ink would need to be printed on any special type of paper for say ordinary posters or billboards???

I THINK I NEED TO GET A DEMONSTRATION ON THIS GRENADIER AS YOU PEOPLE SEEM TO THINK THIS IS THE WAY FORWARD..

[Peter Shaw]

From what I’m reading you need to get a lot more information on all the available printers and check them out thoroughly. Sign UK is good for for producing a short-list, then try and get to see them in a live environment.

As far as the Cadet goes – Yes it print banners beautifully and also prints paper (although I’ve not done much of this). I think its a great machine.

Above all, and particularly if you are new to digital printing, try a find a supplier that will give good support. This has been my biggest handicap to date.

To me support means getting advice on how to do something from someone who knows, not someone who just looked at the manual; getting faults analysed; getting the hardware fixed; getting calls returned; getting decent installation and training and all of this occuring in a reasonable timescale.

Now that’s a challenge !!!

Peter

[mark jones]

mimaki jv3:- very good machine, well built and does all the right things most of the time. HOWEVER….support is rubbish. Hybrid are stretched and very often what should be a “next day visit” doesnt happen until the following week. unnaceptable. also they are not very forthcoming when a problem arrises. they go through every possible alternative answer other than there being a problem with their equipment. also you should take the time to read the mdsa sheets reegarding the jv3 ink, very telling and eyeopening even if you do use ventiliation. (ask them for them, see what they say

Roland sc pro series, versacamm, cadet:-same technology as above but with full manufacturor backing. the same heads same capping station etc etc. yes they have problems, like all inkjets do let alone solvent based ones. but the help is there on hand when you need it.

dont be misled by statements of “true solvents”. this is just not the case. all these machines use a very mild base so as not to cause any issuses.

mimaki (full solvent) :you: then why are the outdoor lifespans the same as the other eco solvents?

a colleage last week told me a story of how a new supplier contacted him trying to sell him his “New” eco solvent ink. In discussion the supplier seemed to think that the “eco” part of the name related to a cost value…….yet they were dearer than standard.

[David McPhillips]

Thanks for your comments mark much appreciated.

As far as im aware if we purchased a mimaki jv3 we would be dealing with a company called Millars which are the agents for mamki here in Ireland, my concern is they are in Dublin and im in Belfast so like you say what would their break-down response time be??? (?)

This brings me to the grenadier which we were also considering the agents for this machine is only 10 minutes drive from us and they also have their own engineer, this is a big plus on this machine, we bought our gerber plotter from them and had a few problems and their response time was not to bad at all.

[Robert Lambie]

quote :

mimaki (full solvent) then why are the outdoor lifespans the same as the other eco solvents

that depends on the location of application. abbrasion etc the solvent machine wins.

[mark jones]

i think if you ask any of the manufacturors, mimaki included, none of them will warrant anything to do with abrasions and washing etc.

[Robert Lambie]

no you are right there…. but… tried and tested on this site, solvent printers out do eco-solvent on almost all accounts… the ones it doesnt out do, they are equal…
i recently had to replace a digital print on a van, (one side) the driver had bumped it and a body shop patched the side and painted it. when complete and finished they decided to give the side a wash down and wiped with some sorta chemical. when doing this they freely went over the digotal print, only for it to come right off on contact. “this wouldnt happen with a solvent print” anyway, we replaced it.
i know the story about always laminate on a vehicle.. that is 100% true.
but many many vehicles on the road are unlaminated, so chemical and grime attack is an issue. e.g. temp taxi promotions

[David McPhillips]

so Rob would you recommend that we laminate all our vehicle graphics or would it be okay with full solvent inks and an advice sheet to the customer on what not to use for washing etc.

Buying a laminater and a printer this bill is going up and up 😮

[Robert Lambie]

i was in your shoes abot 10 months ago mate.
we ended up buying a grenadier, troop software and laminator.
however, to get prices down a bit and to find your feet, you could buy a wide 54 inch cadet, troop and laminator for same price as grenadier alone.
then upgrade it within 6 months to grenadier at no extra cost, just return cadet. thats the deal that i hear is on the go just now.. “i think” dont quote me on that 😉 :lol1: ide imagine it correct as i was offered very similar 10 months ago so ide think there better deals by now…

[David McPhillips]

Thanks for that info Rob that sounds very interesting.

Do you know who was offering that deal??

Is the print quality as good and as durable out of the cadet as the grenadier?
54″ would do us for now though.

Thanks Rob

[Ian Higgins]

Hi
I originally bought the small Cadet and then 4 months later upgraded to the Cadet +. The company I used gave me full money back on the original machine.

[David McPhillips]

Hi Higgi

I think we are now considering the Cadet+ as we have been offered a deal for this machine plus a laminator for less than a grenadier.

Prices were starting to get very scary there for a while *drink*

Anyway would you recommend the Cadet+ Higgi and how do you find running costs??

[Ian Higgins]

Hi,
I think for the money the Cadet+ is an excellent machine..
I would suggest you go with a company who know the machines and can help with technical issues.. They take a bit of tweaking to get the colours right..
The mistake I made was going for out and out price… I got the machine at a great price but no training and only the basic Signlab Rip.
If I upgrade again I will go more for the after sales side rather than out and out price.

I do not have a laminator I just use the prints as they come off the machine..

I have to say that so far I have not had any problems but this is a gamble I am willing to take.
I have told customers with them on vehicles that they will only last 2 years.
If any fade or scratch before then I would re print and fit FOC.
As for running costs I could not tell you how much it costs to run.. I dont even worry. I have a set charge per meter and that is what I go on.. Who knows I may even be losing money but I am not too worried about the pounds and pence running costs.
I think I was originally told about £8 per meter full colour high res.
Hope that helps
Cheers
Ian

[Robert Lambie]

higgi i think at HI-rez Full colour digital print, works out about £6 a metre ink only.
you then have cost for vinyl your printing onto. so your not far out at all there…
obviously you know printing onto banner material is much cheaper as runs at aconomy, think its about £2.70-£3 a metre, prints still look excellent at that on banner. i remember first time i saw a sample at the sign uk, i thought i was looking at a vinyl print, when it was actually a banner. banner material costs vary allot. i/you are getting a great price from europoint at the moment on banner material i think. 😀

dave, the real difference on a grenadeir to a cadet is the print “speed” grens are much faster i beleive, but like has been said, its easy to upgrade to the faster machine once you find your feet and decide you need something a bit faster. print quality etc on both machine are excellent.

[Peter Shaw]

When I was researching which printer to buy I checked out the print by rubbing with various chemicals. While there are large differences to be seen between eco and true solvents, it was clear that there are chemicals that will remove any of these inks. In particular a car valet type cleaner that we use to remove vinyl glue residue seems to clean off anything. As this was true of screenprinted items I considered this to be an extreme test. Of course I excluded printers whose images were damaged by “gentle” solvents such as isopropyl alcahol or meths.

If you warn the customer that high solvent fluids will affect the print, as they will any sticker, this reduces the risk of complaints and allows unlaminated prints to be used. So far I have had no comments or problems.

As far as one of the comments I read regarding what manufacturers say is concerned, I can only warn that you should read the literature carefully. There are no guarantees out there. Print life is is expressed in careful terms such as “proven durability” or ” up to x years life”.

Peter

[Rodney Gold]

The Cost to print is way more than just ink and media. You can effectively double your consumable costs to get true costs , maybe even a 2.5x factor needs to be applied.
Printing on decent vinyl will be around 10quid per sq meter. Work on a true cost of 20 quid per sq at least
(true costs = amortization over 2 yrs , rip times ,wasted prints , wasteage in general , service calls , an operator or a minder , most likely a new puter if you want to rip at a decent speed etc etc)
Apply the 2x 1/2 rule , 2x the cost , half the claimed performance.
I can tell you with confidence , there are some serious players entering the digital print ink market , like Coates etc. Its the inks not the machines that determine durability , colour gamut and so forth and there are cheaper improved inks for all machines on the very near horizon.

[eddietucker]

I just want to point out that buying a converted eco sol machine will reduce the life on the heads and the pumps. The solvents used are very aggressive on the vinyls which is a good thing but it’s also very aggressive on the heads and can flare out the nozzles in time and reduce the life of the head. They are an excellent machine and the quality is fantastic using solvent based ink, but if the machine is left idle for a few days the solvent can evaporate from the head and this will mean doing a power clean to remove ink residue and put abnormal pressure on the pumps. I am not dissaproving any solvent machine, I’m just making a point that you might want to consider making sure you can get the technical support you need on these machines or even a service contract as the parts will wear quicker than the unmodified version. My point is very simple, for a few extra quid, just take out an extended warranty and you’ll save yourself alot of hassle down the line.

[David McPhillips]

Thanks for your help fellas, this is giving me alot of questions to ask when i am over at the UK sign show next week.

I have been offered a deal at the minute for a cadet plus and laminator price to be confirmed at show. The only thing thats concerns me at the moment is this machine would be shipped in from England installed, then i would be left to defend for myself ive been told ill get all the technical support i need but i need to find out if they have any engineers over here in Ireland or would i have to wait on one coming over from the mainland.

Also this machine comes with the V5 RIP has anyone used this, and is it any good??

As for the heads clogging with solvent inks has anyone experienced this problem yet, and doyou know the cost of new heads for the cadet plus?

Thanks for the costing advise Rodney ill need help on pricing as i am totally new to digital printing for myself.

Rob what is the longest period you have gotten out of non-laminated vehicle graphics, and also have you ever printed onto standard uncoated paper and what was the out come??

[Robert Lambie]

Hi Dave

havent used that software but there are many using it, im guessing thats the standard roland one for that machine and most like it? if it is, i havent heard of any complaints…

as for being in ireland, i dont really see that being major hassle for suppliers… i know eddie cotter from ireland bought a cadet last year (30 inch one) and he is now considering a move to grenadier i think…

laminating?
to be honest mate i dont put unlaminated images on a vehicle. i have yet to find a printer that doesnt need it laminated, “that includes thermal machines like an edge”, unless you are doing huge images like vehicle wraps etc, if you can apply vinyl dry.. you may get away with laminating by hand. but thats IF you are confident… i do this for sorta square images on vehicles etc saves messing around on laminator for a couple of images..
you do get a better finish with a laminator though!
most taxis on the road are unlaminated.. they normally last a year ide think… but i have seen some tatty ones about…
the thing with vehicles is… they are subjected to so much grime, dirt, polution & chemical attack. even if not rubbed by a car wash, a steam genie has so many chemicals in it that will in some way break down the ink on the vinyl. one car may be fine for a year but another washed out looking in 6 months…

i have printed onto two types of paper a cheap one and a nice silk one…
both worked spot on… the silk finished one was very nice, seemed to hold the shine/colour well, but the cheaper one went a sorta matt and lightened… the ink was sorta sucked into it. ide think this is just down to me buying cheap paper though…

there are many materials on the go that can be printed onto, it would amaze you!

as eddie has advised… keep the warranty going and you will have nothing to worry about mate… 😉

[David McPhillips]

Thanks again Rob for the excellent advice and help.

[Rodney Gold]

some new info on the subject
1) Roland have white ink retrofits for their machines , white ink is the holy grail of digital printing , you do NOT only have to print on white!!!
2) Bordeaux http://www.c-m-y-k.com/families/ecosolvent.asp have low cost bulk Eco sol inks with increased durability and at 1/2 prices to OEM inks + there is a bulk refillable system – 5 users here are using it with very good results and no reprofiling needed

[eddie cotter]

Dave, i have my cadet just a year now, its the best decision i ever made,
maintenance takes me ten minutes!!! every now & again as for any smell
just open a window for a few moments & its gone, i am deffinatly going to get a grenadier with a bulk ink system as soon as i have the dosh!
oh & get the troop rip!!! 😉 eddie cotter

[Peter Shaw]

Seeing a couple of mentions of the RIPs, I thought I would butt in:

The Cadet (small) comes with Rolands Colorip included with the machine. This is a restricted version of Wasatch and works perfectly well. If you buy this machine, this RIP is all you need. There are now plenty of profiles around.

The Cadet Plus will not operate with this RIP. Uniform sell the Troop RIP and version 5 is the Wasatch RIP. Previous version were not – I think they were Flexi.

The Wasatch/Troop V5 RIP comes as a full version and a light version. The light version is very restrictive on facilities and I would not recommend it. The full version is excellent.

The way pricing tends to be structured on the Cadet machines is based on the RIP supplied so define what you are buying carefully or you may get RIPped!

Peter