Billing for Time

[Phill Fenton]

It’s funny you should raise this subject today. I have been agonising recently about this very thing myself. I seem to have had a number of customers recently who just can’t make up their minds and it has been quite frustrating. Maybe it’s the weather 🙄

Sorry I don’t have any answers for you – But I also would like some advice on the subject 😀

[Sparky]

Not sure if this helps or not (?)

Our usual method is to interrogate the customer as much as possible when he first calls …………. & tell him I will do a design for him if he would like to call in tomorrow or when he’s free (but I also get his number so he thinks i will pester him if he doesn’t return !)

Do a design & save it, when he calls in again ….

right Sir, I have got something together based on your instructions / ideas, at the moment it is about £195 worth. We can make any minor text / colour alterations now FREE or …. if it’s likely to change too much, I can re-quote you on the revised version. Then I show him the design ….. 10 minutes of alterations & they go for it 99% of the time …… he’s just “done the design himself” (so he will tell his mates), thinks he’s got a bargain because I havn’t charged him more … I WIN 😆 😆

I am certainly no salesman but have sorta perfected the technique & refined it since listening to the old shed dweller ………. in my humble opinion, if you listen (or read) everything Mike says, it’s all there ….. just a case of adapting it to suit the way YOU work

not helped ???????? oh well, I tried 😕 😕

sparky

[Gi Graphics]

Hi
Thanks Sparky, I see where you’re coming from. Effectively you’re saying you do charge for major design changes or new ideas. Do you find this stops the customer taking liberties with your time in the first place ? And does it always lead to the best design solutions ?
Interested in your remarks on the “old shed dweller”. What does he have to say on the subject ?
Cheers
Paul

[keith]

The way we do it is to build design costs into the price of the sign.
At the start of the year or if suppliers increase prices we break everything down to the minutest detail – board (plus cutting time), vinyl, laying up, wages and of course arisings @ 25% ie electricity etc. then add on say 2 hrs ‘ £5 ( to cover wages) add on the profit we require then work out a figure for the square foot (I haven’t quite worked out how to do it in the european measurements yet!).
This way if we know the design is going to be complicated and take a little extra time we can add on extra but safe in the knowledge that part of it is already allocated.

I don’t know if this helps at all

Keith

[Carrie Brown]

We do not charge for design time if the customer has an existing logo, we see it as being part & parcel of the whole job, as long as you get as clear a picture in the beginning from the client, what they are hoping to achieve, what info do they want to get accross, etc then you shouldnt have to many problems. We all get the customers from “indecisive land” come through the door, but the way we look at it is ……. swings & roundabouts 😀 the next person to come in could be the easiest to please, which makes up for the previous pain in the bum 😀

We do however charge a logo design fee, if someone arrives as a new company, with no logo and wanting us to create one, we do charge for that service which is £20+vat an hour. We make sure we get as much info as possible off the customer and usually spend about 2-3 hours creating at least three ideas for them.

I also think that where you are based in the country has a lot of impact on what you can get away with charging and what you cant. The more good competitors you have near you, the less you can get away with.

[keith]

As far as the customer is concerned they think the design is free. But you have to build in charges for the time spent otherwise your profits will not be a true reflection on what you produce because of the time spent.
If you add up all the time spent designing then allow an hourly rate equal to your wages then deduct it from the total profits you will be quite amazed at the figure.
Over tha last twelve months Sharon and I have had to train ourselves to stop looking at it all from how much it costs a customer to how much it will benefit the customer!
As for competition there are at least 5 signmakers within 5 miles from us, one is only 2 minutes walk away but we know we are more expensive than them. Why? Because we know we offer a better service and quality product than them

Keith

[Gi Graphics]

Hi
Thanks to you all for taking the time to reply. I guess I’m coming at this topic from a slightly different angle. As a graphic designer I’m involved with artwork origination, and it is this originating process that has always caused me a problem. I too charge £20 /hr for design, but I do initially have to give them a ball park figure. It’s staying within these boundaries that’s the hard part.
Keith, I’m not sure how your pricing structure allows for this artwork origination process.
I guess the general opinion is to make clear from the start exactly what the client is, and more importantly, is not paying for.
Thanks again for your input.
Cheers
Paul

[John Childs]

£20 per hour for design work isn’t anywhere near enough.

That’s £400 per week (40 hours). What do you have left to live on after your overheads have come out of that?

[John Childs]

Alright Chalkie, I know my mental arithmetic is rubbish. I should have put a calculator around it 😀

[Carrie Brown]

£800 per week isnt to bad if you are self employed & working from home. However it is low if its a company with rent etc, solely relying on just design fees.

We have a client who deals in property refurbs & every building they take over they like to have a new building name & logo which is designed by a design company, who we believe charges them around £600 for three designs.

We only get the odd customer, perhaps one or two a month that want a logo designed & Im not talking about large corporate companies here, Im talking about your local plumber/decorator etc. who want something a little more than just a plain name on the van. So for us charging £20 per hour for a litlte extra work that comes up once a month seems ok at the moment. Not charging a design fee might sound daft to some but then on the other hand we possibly charge more than others for labour & a higher mark up on materials so we are not really losing out……… If Im making sense? 😀

[Gi Graphics]

Hi
Thanks again for the debate. I know by some standards £20/hr is not a lot. However, I am from “up-north” where the pockets are deep and the arms are short. What would you consider a more realistic rate in your neck of the woods? Also I do intend to enter the sign market at some point in the near future, which is why I joined the boards in the first. It’s such a great source of information and you’re a particularly generous bunch with your knowledge and time.
£800 a week wouldn’t be too bad considering I work from home and have no commuting costs. But then again, if I could find enough work I wouldn’t be talking to you lot 😆
Thanks for the time folks.
Cheers
Paul
P.S. I’ll try to find a photo soon, so you can see who you’re talking to.

[keith]

GI
I think Carrie came up with a similar way of explaining how they do it. We don’t charge a direct fee but we build in the time into the costs. So by rights we could also say we just have a larger mark up but saying its design time makes it easier for us to work out. Thanks Carrie for untangling my words 😀
It also gives us a slight edge. 95% of all businesses in Cornwall are classed as micro or self employed persons so no major contracts to be had there. So we try to spoil all our customers but I rather think we slipped up with devon Oak flooring 👿 😳

Keith

[liam]

I sort of fall between two stools on this one. I build the price ofthe design in to the job but always charge extra for scanning/vectorising logos of business cards, napkins etc. I always give pitch this as “a one-off now we have it one the system.

Liam

[keith]

Liam,
That’s not a bad idea. Then try to sell them other things such as site boards or stickers or T shirts with their logo on. I will give it a try 😀

Keith