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Anyone had problems with this Moto-X Material
I have been supplied LG LD3888G and GV10-70 laminate.
APS supplied me with this material for motorcross shroud graphics. graphics.
We have put a lot of time and money into this with getting templates and designs sorted.
We have supplied out over 20 off these prints and even fitted some to customers panels.
All of them have either de-laminated or the adhesive has failed on the panel.
I am looking for someone who has used this material for motorcross shroud graphics. application with success as I have had none!I need to bring some sort of case as this is marketed as for motorcross shroud graphics.
I am being told no one has had failures but I’m not been given any names.Thanks
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44 Replies
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interesting as we were about to order some inc the 250mic laminate.
the samples were created for forks and the customer has said it as good if not better than other makes.
yet to try it on the plastic panels await other replies before possible order.chris
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I have used this combination (over 100 metres) for a while with no come back from any customer. This includes 1 British Championship team!!
I did various trials on old and new plastics before switching and found it to be very good. Laminate is not quite as durable and the convex pro shield but still good. The only de-lamination I had was when trying 500micron laminate and where I had rushed a couple of things through!
New plastics must be thoroughly cleaned and degreased as the silicon mould release agent is still present from manufacturing. -
What are you cleaning the panels with?
I know the motocross guys are hard on these and I agree the laminate needs to be thicker.
The over laminate goes matte after only a couple of races!
I know they cover their bikes in WD40 spray after cleaning but surely this should be up to the job.
But the amount of guys we have had back complaining is embarrassing.
Most of them apply their own graphics so will not have fancy cleaners to wipe them down.SC
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Most of my graphics are supply only. I suggest to wipe panels over with thinners or brake cleaner.
Once fitted I suggest leaving for 24-48hrs before taking the bike out.
Have you checked your templates? This can cause loads of issues if there are sharp corners or need to go over rounded edges with a small radius (top of rad shrouds etc). Do they fit properly? -
Templates are perfect and that is what we tell them to clean them with!
SC
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What about using convex vinyl?? If you don’t mind me asking where did you buy the templates???
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whats the cost on this stuff?
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We have made our own templates.
Convex is 3-4 times the cost !!!!!!! -
Well i’m on my third roll now not putting it on to bikes but bins for the Olympics & it sticks like Sh*t, that said i have noticed that there can be a difference in just how sticky the stuff is. Now this may be down to the solvents attacking the glue because everything is rush rush as normal so we laminate pretty quickly. We also laminate but never have any problems & these bins get treated worse that any bike i assure you.
Kev
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The bikes get some hard treatment and then they pressure wash them to hell and after that drown them in WD40.
I have some bikes that have had them on for only2 weeks and they have gone Matte and they are hanging off them!
Before you say all the motocrossers cover there bikes in WD40 or something similair and don’t have problems with convex.
I feel that if this is the case this material hasn’t been properly tested for the motorcrossers!SC
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how long do you leave between printing and laminating? solvent off gas can affect both sides, adhesive and laminate?
regards
Dan
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I have often laminated within an hour of printing. I know it goes against the grain of what you should do, but never a problem.
What are you trying to achieve Sean? Compensation from APS / LG?
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Yes I want compensated in some way or at least the correct material supplied!
Most of my prints have at least 12-24 hours curing time before lamination.
I have customers screaming for graphics that I supplied and have fell off.
I have been using standard 3-5 year vinyl with standard laminate as a backup till APS sorted this out and it lasts longer than the stuff they claim is made for the job.
We have one customer that we printed a set in standard vinyl and laminated and they look as good as the day they went on and that was 2 seasons/years ago.All APS want to give me is money back for the vinyl left!!!!
I think they are dreaming!
I am not being unreasonable but I must be down at least 40+ hours on these 20 sets.
Each customer has had at least one set of standard vinyl graphics FOC of me just to keep them going.If they say their material is up to the job, then why are my customers saying and proving it isn’t!
I keep getting told they have plenty of happy customers who use this material for motorcross graphics but I am still waiting to speak to them!
Kevin Flowers is the only one who says he has used this material but he is sticking on bins and even he says the adhesive properties can fluctuate.
And this is the ultimate thing I contacted LG hausys in Germany and they reckon this material is for sticking graphics to walls! No mention of Motorcross panels anywhere.
Help me I wish I never started doing these motorcross panels but everyone loves our designs and commitment to giving them a good product but if the product doesn’t work it just brings the name of our company down.
SC
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Why don’t you just buy the convex material, it works grate with the 12mil Pro shield Laminate.
May cost more but you will not have these kind of problems and your customers will be happy.
I believe you get what you pay for, if the APS material was the same standard as the convex it would most probably have the same price tag and not be 3 or 4 times Cheaper.
As for getting your money back can you not send them one of the panels that looks in a state. 😀
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I received samples of the LG3888 and both thicknesses of laminates to use as alternatives to Convex. I printed, left to outgas for 48 hours, laminated then did a little test.
The 500 micron laminate simply peeled straight off the print, leaving all the glue behind. Then i thought – maybe the solvents in the ink have loosened the adhesive so I stuck a piece of the 500 micron laminate straight onto my glass worktop. Same thing happened – it peeled off leaving all the glue behind. This set alarm bells ringing for me.
Anyway I called APS and they confirmed they had indeed been having problems with delaminating with the 500micron laminate and advised me not to use it on anything but gently curved surfaces. This makes it totally unsuitable for MX graphics in my opinion. They haven’t had the same issues with the 250mic film as it’s probably stretchier but it’s too thin for my requirements. APS did say that LG are reformulating the adhesive of their laminates so hopefully an updated product will be available soon.
Apart from the price of Convex, I was never satisfied with the print quality on the matt base vinyl. At the moment I am using a hybrid combination of LG gloss base and convex laminate. I get the print vibrancy (and the lower price) of the gloss white LG with the durability of the Convex laminate.
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glad you got to the bottom of it, are they going to refund you for the full roll?
It would be nice if convex could bring out a gloss material.
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Hi Owen,
Do you die cut your graphics?
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Hey Scott, yeah I contour cut the graphics.
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Obviously APS have a problem!
I hate suppliers experimenting on the people who have to make the products into finished items.SC
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Well I have just had another motorcrosser come in with his bike!!
The look of the graphics was so comical.
I have took some very unbelievable pictures.
They were all flapping in the wind.It took a minute to strip the bike completely, normally taking old motocross graphics off takes an absolute age due to the grab of the material.
I now want to know how I go about some sort of proceedings against APS as I thought maybe I was over reacting, but I now know I am not!!!!
This material isn’t suitable for application to motorcross plastic panels and it has been advertised for this use.SC
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Sean, you need to have a sit down with them and discuss what you did in regards to printing etc and what your customers did to apply them and see what they say about the facts, ask them what they are going to do about it and lay down what you feel should be done. If you can’t come to a compromise then seek action against them but make sure you have all the facts 100%.
Sorry about your problems and good luck.
cheers
Warren
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So are the graphics delaminating or are they simply peeling straight off the plastics? You mentioned before that sometimes your customers apply the graphics straight over their old ones. Most plastics or graphics will absorb any cleaning products or lubricants into the surface over time. This will make it virtually impossible to stick anything to them.
If your mx templates are slightly oversize, the edges or corners will come unstuck meaning its only a matter of time before the decals are powerwashed off or you get dirt ingress and they start to lift. You will need to take some detailed images and document how the panels are prepped and the fitting process to stand any chance of getting your money back.
I have done quite a few mx bikes using LG 3888 as the base vinyl without any comebacks. I am aware of the delaminating issues so I use a different laminate. Maybe you got a dodgy roll? The sample roll and the 50m roll I received actually had different backing paper. One had Hausys printed on and the other had Vizuon. Maybe they have switched batches or something.
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All I have been offered is re-payed for material used!!!
I have 20 sets which take over 2 hours a set to print, laminate, cut and weed out each.
This is nothing to the fact I have had to give each person who bought these of me at least one set in normal vinyl to tide them over, which adds even more time and my material.
I don’t want to cause a carry on but my time has to be added onto this job and material alone doesn’t cover it!!
I need to speak to someone who has a similair problem with a companies material and how they sorted the outcome.SC
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Owen
The graphics are delaminating and not adhereing to the panels.
No one has applied a set over a old set. That would be not a clever thing to do.
IF APS have had problems with their material they have not said anything to me.
My mx templates are bang on and stick directly to the panels with no over hangs.
We are only doing about 4 different bikes so I have had time to tweek my templates to make them absolutley perfect.SC
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Sean
the problem is unless you can find it in writing that it is suitable for MX Graphics you cannot prove it is not fit for purpose. The write up as below doesn’t mention MX graphics it states Motorbike graphics. I’m not saying it was not sold to you as an alternative to Convex etc but they do not claim that it will take the abuse that MX bikes get. Some of which you have stated on here which may come back to bite you on the rear as suppliers read the boards as well.Also standard vinyls are stated for use on vehicles but if some goes about the van with a pressure washer etc you will not see any supplier / manufacturer giving out warranty payments. I think that the offer you have will be the best that you get, i hope i’m wrong. Have you got the legal resource’s to fight this because APS will have & they will probably have statements from other customers stating how good the product is.
Just to point out i’m on neither side but am just expressing a view.
Product info from APS
Double the amount of adhesive as normal. Works on smooth/rough painted/unpainted concrete, smooth/rough general painted surfaces, and polyethylene/polypropylene surfaces such as bins, motorcycle panels, plastic dashboards in vans, buses etc. Adhesive strength on ‘difficult’ surfaces such as HDPE is around 19 N/25mm, twice as good as other films, and similar to the adhesion you’d expect from a quality vinyl on a good surface such as stainless steel.
Kev
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…..but it does say polyethylene/polypropylene surfaces which from memory…(yes I’ve still got a bit left…. 🙄 ) is what almost all MX bikes bodywork is made of. With new plastics I used to wash down with brake cleaner and apply the graphics and never had one fail to stick like stuff to the proverbial blanket…..
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You are right Roger about the material the vinyl can be applied to, but with Motocross, you have to take into account the conditions the graphics are subjected to and how they are cared for. Also how the substrate is prepared prior to the graphics going on.
As I said earlier, I am on my 3rd 50 metre roll and not one adverse comment.
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Was going to try some of this and was going to try both 250 and 500 mic laminate as I thought 250 might not quite be man enough but the 500 seems bit thick. What laminate are you using Jason?
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I use the 250 laminate. I tried some 500 and it wasn’t flexible enough and de laminated easily.
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Thanks Jason. From what I’m hearing on here I think I may try the 250 mic 1st!
Paul
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Kevin
It does state on the sample I have that it is "for low energy PE and PP surfaces such as motorcross shroud graphics"
Now if that doesn’t have a case nothing does.
I cannot believe that no one has had problems with this motorcross panels!
Or have I been given a bad batch?SC
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Sean what vinyl you using again and what laminate?? Where are you buying this??
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quote Sean.Cully:Kevin
It does state on the sample I have that it is “for low energy PE and PP surfaces such as motorcross shroud graphics”
Now if that doesn’t have a case nothing does.
I cannot believe that no one has had problems with this motorcross panels!
Or have I been given a bad batch?SC
Sean
then keep that safe because thats the arguing point, it seems APS have promoted it strongly to the MX market not LG so its down to APS to resolve the problem. However like most they will argue that you are the only customer with problems & X amount of customers use it with no problems. Best of luck in resolving it. What material are you using now?Kev
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I’m not using any materials until I get somewhere with APS.
Their has been too much time and money sunk into this for the material to fail!Nicholas the materials are LG LD3888G and GV10-70 laminate supplied by APS.
SC
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So your business stops until you resolve with APS?
Finding vinyl for MX graphics is abit like finding the Holy Grail as a small business!
If you want something actually made for the MX market and marketed in that way, the only option is Convex! I have had problems with Convex in the past with poor adhesion and marks on the surface along with supply issues at times. Print 1 work hard to support the product, but will only refund/replace the vinyl. No compensation for time / loss of business etc.
I assume you did some rigorous trials with the APS vinyl and laminate before selling it, knowing how demanding MX riders are?
I’m not knocking you, but surely an open forum is not the correct place to name and shame before speaking with your supplier and backing up your claims with returned product, print / lamination methods etc.
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quote :I’m not knocking you, but surely an open forum is not the correct place to name and shame before speaking with your supplier and backing up your claims with returned product, print / lamination methods etc.
i found it helpful as i am just about to spent £600 on these materials good to hear the good a bad points, and any muck ups.
we have some out on test so far so good but who knows.
chris
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I have found out that the big suppliers of these graphics are importing the materials from the US in large quantities.
I can’t compete and do not want to with that.
We have a large motorcross scene happening out here in the north west and over the last 10 years lots of people have asked if we made the panels for these bikes. So once we got the templates sorted, got some nice designs and found a reasonable costing material that was supposed to be upto the job we got loads of orders.
I am still sitting with at least 36 sets wanting designed and printed!I tested the material sample we were supplied and found it to adhere very well and it was really glossy and printed fantastic.
These problems haven’t come to light until they start using them on the track.
Another thing to note is after cleaning the bikes after a race the graphics have a matte finish and have lost all trace of the glossy finish.And yes an open forum is were to place this as we have lost a lot of money and it has seriously tarnished our company if the materials I supply are not up to the job.
Imagine if you applied a print to a sign and it blew off in the wind, this is the same thing.I hope APS are reading this.
SC
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Hi a bit off subject but where did you get your templates from and do they do updates?
Thanks -
Any updates Sean?
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Update…
I contacted Trading Standards and there reply was :-
I had no chance on redeeming the money I had lost in time manufacturing these items and the most I could probably get is a refund on the goods.
If I wished to take it through court it would be a long drawn thing, with me maybe losing.I contacted APS and they have fully refunded me the goods and threw in a few rolls of Standard Vinyl, Laminate and Banner Material.
I have closed the issue with them but needless to say the material they are marketing for use on motocross shrouds IS NOT UP TO THE JOB.
This has cost me considerable time and money and needless to say I will be ordering some Convex material to cover the ruined prints and then giving the motorcross printing a big miss!
SC
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This is a shocking read & I’m gutted for you Sean. How can a company advertise & sell something for a specific application, then shrug their shoulders & be covered by law when it goes tits up?
I share your pain, as we went through a similar experience with some vinyl that failed years ago. It cost us a lot of time, money & a few customers putting it right.
Being a small business is hard enough, without these silly laws protecting the big boys.
Being completely honest & upfront with your customers is the only thing you can do in a situation such as this.
Best of luck with it all.
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Is it the enduro vinyl you are talking about ?
wow !!!!, i planned to order some , i will reconsider my plans ….If we could have some substance vynil materials imported in Europe , i would order some for sure , many people are really satisfied with these products but the prices are too high (due to the shipping costs ) when you live in Europe .
I already asked them if they were searching for a European distributor , but nobody had replied to them …i think , if it is a good product the market is already opened !
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quote Denis Daubisse:Is it the enduro vinyl you are talking about ?
wow !!!!, i planned to order some , i will reconsider my plans ….If we could have some substance vynil materials imported in Europe , i would order some for sure , many people are really satisfied with these products but the prices are too high (due to the shipping costs ) when you live in Europe .
I already asked them if they were searching for a European distributor , but nobody had replied to them …i think , if it is a good product the market is already opened !
Denis, this is one persons view of the product and like most products out there, someone somewhere will have some form of complaint. Get some samples from APS and try it for yourself. I have gone through rolls of the vinyl and laminate (250mic) with no issues or returns and know of other MX graphics companies using the materials successfully.
There are alternatives being made in Europe which are good if you’re prepared to order 500 metres of both vinyl and laminate at a time!
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You are right Jason ,
but as i’ve seen many products to make motocross graphics for the last two years , i haven’t been satisfied with most of them …. except convex but of course the price is a barrier !
What was the good thing for me was the thickness (the 20mil laminate but they seem to reformulate their process not to have problems of delamination )
and the 10 mil seemed to be not quick enough for a motocross application .
For most of the customers it is OK , but with some riders that ride at a good level i’m affraid it doesn’t last very much …. the proshield7 for exemple is not resistant enough in very much cases .Only the proshield12 does the job .I don’t know how it works to send you a PM , if you can send me one telling me where to find those alternatives it would be kind of you …
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