alignment issue with dry applying

[Bob Clarkson]

Ok, if you’re not good at straight lines, stick masking tape on first, then when you’ve got that straight put the vinyl to it.

I think I could dry apply a piece of vinyl 30"by 90" dry onto foam board, I say I think, as it would never cross my mind to do it, as there really would be no point. It’ll go on quicker and better wet.

If you really must apply things that size dry, make it over sized to allow for the run out. It may appear to start straight, but if you’re 1mm out at the start, you could be 25mm out by the time you get to the end. Throw in a bit of stretch where you start to panic halfway and it’s straight in the bin.
😀

[Jon Marshall]

Try starting in the middle.

[Matty Goodwin]

As John says, start in the middle and work out.

Matt

[Luke s Bremner]

I do alot of vinyl dry, I did a hoarding 5M high in 1600mm widths, 12 drops. I started from the top and had some one on the bottom to aline it. at most was off by 10mm at the bottom. Its all in the way you start it but also some vinyls are not stiff enough to run straight and will need to be done wet. Ink jet prints can be harder to apply uv prints work nice dry.
With the laminator your paying for the rollers, cheap laminators dont track straight that can also be a big problem. With laminating peal the paper back and cut it off dont fold it over, that will help to track better.

[Jason Xuereb]

I fin using tape markers where you apply it over the vinyl and onto the surface and then cut it where the vinyl hits the surface helps you see if your running into trouble before you get into trouble. They are alignment points.

If I’m doing vertical panels its inevitable that some of the panels won’t line up properly due to stretch or incorrect printing or other factors. In these instances I use triangles to pull one side of the panel up to align it and then heat and flatten out the bridged up vinyl. Helps when its a cast material.

Second surface application such as frost etc are better done wet.

[Bob Clarkson]

Maybe I should start this as a different post, but I’m a little confused.

If you have a large area of vinyl and you put it on wet, there is no risk of run-out, you won’t get air bubbles in it and you won’t ever need to be brutal enough for it to stretch or crease.

Wet application is also a lot faster, not at first I agree, but once you’ve got the hang of it, it’s way faster. You will also find as a bonus that you will be able to wallpaper your house to the highest standards, as the concept is basically the same. But as the wallpaper is thicker, it’s really easy.

Air bubbles don’t seem to bother most people, but I just can’t leave a job full of them and I’m not prepared to sit and stab them with a pin. Partly because of the time it would take, and the damage to the vinyl itself, but I couldn’t have anyone think I was unable to fit something in one hit, spot on. Look at some of the wraps that are done, they’re almost 3D with bubbles.

[Luke s Bremner]

Bob I find with lower tack vinyls they go down easy dry, higher tack vinyls need to be applied wet depending on what you are fitting to. I find fitting dry will be faster then wet, and I dont get bubbles but use larger handle squeegee like whats used for window films.

I also do what Jason said with the tape as markers and registration.

[Phillip Patterson]

thanks for all your comments

I just thought since I have just started to use my laminator and since it can be used for mounting graphics on to boards i would give it a shot thinking it would be easier and faster. Will probably stick to wet applying the vinyl from now on!

[Peter Normington]

quote Bob Clarkson:

Maybe I should start this as a different post, but I’m a little confused.

If you have a large area of vinyl and you put it on wet, there is no risk of run-out, you won’t get air bubbles in it and you won’t ever need to be brutal enough for it to stretch or crease.

Wet application is also a lot faster, not at first I agree, but once you’ve got the hang of it, it’s way faster. You will also find as a bonus that you will be able to wallpaper your house to the highest standards, as the concept is basically the same. But as the wallpaper is thicker, it’s really easy.

Air bubbles don’t seem to bother most people, but I just can’t leave a job full of them and I’m not prepared to sit and stab them with a pin. Partly because of the time it would take, and the damage to the vinyl itself, but I couldn’t have anyone think I was unable to fit something in one hit, spot on. Look at some of the wraps that are done, they’re almost 3D with bubbles.

Bob, wraps cant be done wet, so not sure what your point is.
For flood coating frosted wet is fine, but what happens when you have cut vinyl and app tape? it can take a day to dry before the app tape can be removed.

If you can learn to do dry, far better and quicker.
and if done right, no need to pr1ck bubbles.
whether they be air or fluid, I have seen frosted applied wet by some people that has fluid bubs, they can cause just as many, if not more probs than air.
milkiness for one,

Peter

[Robert Lambie]

Phillip, without actually seeing you fit, its very difficult to tell you "really" where you are going wrong mate. many things can come into play when long vinyl applications begin to run off

General rule is apply from the middle and work your way out to the sides. this reduces the length by 50%, so less vinyl to manage, less chance to run off. its not always possible though.
flood coating a board, well you should really have a bigger bit of vinyl that the board, once applied you trim the vinyl neat.

the problem you have with vinyl running off is because unless you have it 100% square, that tiny bit off at the start gets exaggerated by the time you get to the other end. so the long the length of vinyl, the gap will keep getting bigger and bigger.

vinyl can stretch when being applied. so its always best to have it covered by application tape to help prevent this. granted, laminated prints done need application tape, but if vinyl is being applied in a warm room or outside in the sun, it can easily stretch. so it helps sometimes to apply the tape on top of the laminated prints. this also make the vinyl feel that bit more stiffer/manageable.

this is an old video… but this was applied on a VERY HOT sunny day.
$this->auto_embed_video(‘http://www.youtube.com/v/so-ugPwGTBw?version=3&hl=en_US’, ‘560’, ‘340’)

:lol1: and wet application…
$this->auto_embed_video(‘http://www.youtube.com/v/bFtGJnA5v6Y?version=3&hl=en_US’, ‘560’, ‘340’)

Bob, i cannot agree mate… Wet is no way faster or better than dry application.

depending on "the applicators ability" to apply vinyl, then yes, wet is going to be the easier form of application. I am in no way knocking anyone for applying wet. we do what needs to be done to get the job fitted correct and the customer happy.

Vehicle wrapping should never be attempted wet. i agree there are many wraps being done with bubbles, creases and recessed areas pulling out. those ones are probably done by your local cowboy sign fitter fancying a go at wrapping. we have them here too… their everywhere. but please do not look on those vehicles as a properly installed wrap.

[Peter Dee]

That wet install looked fun. The camera holder was getting very fidgety.
I think you were close to wearing that last sheet when you flicked it up to straighten it out.

[Bob Clarkson]

The wraps bit was just an add on and not that relevant, more an observation of sign standards in general. Vehicle wrapping is also something I don’t do or have any plans in starting. I know the videos are titled as vehicle wrapping, but it’s a flat surface, so it might as we be a signboard, obviously I mean cars with recesses and curves etc.

Back to vinyls, application tape can be removed minutes after lettering is fitted, you just use low tack, or medium tack as they now seem to call the same stuff. I guess if you used high tack with cheap vinyl and wet it you’d get some problems, in fact I’m sure you would. Especially if it was installed onto foam or glass. I will often fit smaller lettering to foams or course surfaces dry, as it can be awkward to get the water out in a short time frame.

I’ve watched the videos, and if you can honestly tell me that on the occasions you pulled the vinyl sheet off that vehicle to reposition it that you caused no stretch, and that all those joins line up perfectly I really would be amazed. I also see it as no quicker, and you need another person to help. I can wet apply that on my own, as I have more than on chance at the start, and can gently ease any run out the second it starts. There is also the added cost of covering the whole lot with application tape, it all costs money and takes time. Just to add insult, if that was a wet application, you could have carried on in the rain. I know it’s not nice, but I’ve done many a job, got soaked myself, but still got it done. A little rain can be awkward, a mass of soapy water and it’s easy. Still, as you say, we all do thing different, but I’ve been sticking this stuff for 27yrs and what I’ve just seen is in no way going to change my work practice.

[Robert Lambie]

the videos were posted "tongue in cheek" mate…
the videos are shown simply because the original post was talking about flat panel alignment running off.

the solid colour change is taped because it was a CAST vinyl i was applying.

note the digital prints are NOT tapped.

i can fit these panels dry on my own too… its no big deal.
the second body speeds up application time, helps with alignment, helps with wiping down the panels prior to applying. helps setting up and moving trestles.
all the same things "you" will come up against whether your fitting wet or dry! "time is money"
soapy water application is in no way faster or superior. once you get the vinyl in place, that’s were all the help finishes and the troubles start.

you are questioning how inaccurate my panel application alignment must be? this is exactly my point in my initial reply. IF you don’t get panel alignment bang on, by the time you have worked from one side of a truck to the other, it will run off! if i have a panel running off, i will remove and re-apply to get it straight. just because its fitted dry, does not mean you get one go. try starting an artic truck wrap and putting your first panel on a little squint… by the time you get 40ft along the side you will be running off by about a foot!

here is another one i did… not so simple, and throw in the staircase midway for good measure. yet alignment is not lost over this huge long surface! how would your wet application method work out on the stainles steel body below this? "nightmare springs to mind"

[Bob Clarkson]

Robert, It’s not my place to question, but I do fail to see how the way you had to pull that printed vinyl off when almost at the bottom would not have caused at least some stretch or general damage. If you glance at that last piece of film you may see what I mean.

The whole run off thing, I had answered basically the same as you had, but several posts earlier. (it’s an issue most noticeable with armature wallpaper hanging) I am familiar with large applications, I’ve fitted dozens over the years, but with the added pressure that I cannot make them. So it would have been a real issue if I’d ruined any, as I would have been expected to pay for a replacement job or section.

With regards to initial post, I purely tried to offer a successful solution to the problem. I do still believe that the advise I gave will enable him to do the job in question that he is a present struggling to do. Despite what most people think or believe about there work, it has to be acknowledged that the majority of vinyl fitted these days is riddled with flaws and faults, it’s just how it is. I’m happy to leave the result to this in the hands of the original poster to try both ways and post his opinion.

[Robert Lambie]

Bob, it is your place to question… its actually anyones place to question “if they have reason to”.

As for the video, yes definitely, I make a miss-swipe trying to complete the panel leaning over upside down. When I would/should normally jump down, kick trestles away and complete the last 12inches in a manageable fashion. But because it was being video’d I tried to complete in one go. Could the vinyl have been stretched as a result? Well in the scorching heat that that job was fitted in… Yes, it could have been… but it wasn’t. in normal fitting conditions a quick snap back of the vinyl and back down with it in seconds. Keep in mind, this is a laminated print… not a thin cast vinyl like the one in the raining video which was taped.

Your comment about just advising on what you think will help the initial poster, I think is spot on.
I also agree with you due to limited ability, the poster should consider trying the wet application method. Although I would advise on him using rapid-tac application fluid as opposed to soapy water.

I think the reason Peter and myself started questioning your posts Bob, was more to do with you pushing wet app as if it was the superior method. Also slating many wrapped jobs are covered in bubbles as a result of dry application?

quote Bob Clarkson:

I think I could dry apply a piece of vinyl 30″by 90″ dry onto foam board, I say I think, as it would never cross my mind to do it, as there really would be no point. It’ll go on quicker and better wet.

No disrespect meant Bob, but your self confessed limited ability to fit large panels of vinyl doesn’t really give you credible reason to state what is and isn’t the better/faster method.

i have fitted hundreds of big trucks in the last couple of years. i have 15 trucks from 7.5 tonners to artic lorries to be wrapped in the next fortnight alone. if i honestly thought fitting wet was worth considering, ide be the first to give it a go and shout its praises.

[Peter Normington]

Bob, I go with Rob all the way here, and i respect your long experience of fitting vinyl.
I dont want to get into a long pros and con argument, the industry standard is to fit dry, a freelance fitter would not even consider wet application, simply because of the extra time it takes.
Yes, if it suits to fit wet, and is the best for you then thats fine, but for anyone that does want to progress to wraps and even application to curved or recessed areas. then dry is the only way to do it without problems.

I have done many large areas dry, and don’t have problems with alignment, there are certain methods to ensure correct application, but that is gained by experience.

just my 2ps worh.
apply wet and you will never reach your full potential,
Apply dry and the world is a smaller place
😀

Peter

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve done a search, and yes industry standard seems to be fit dry. I’ll be honest now, I was doing this before we even had internet, let alone forums etc. When I first started doing this, wet application was the only method considered correct (3M training course). I very clearly see that’s not how it is now. But It’s always worked for me, and when you see some of the work out there, I feel a few more should give it a try.

I don’t remember at any point saying I’d limited experience of fitting large areas of vinyl, I’ve obviously not done as many as Robert, but I can still do a perfect job. I will leave no bubbles, and run-out isn’t even a consideration. Most of the large applications I’ve done were for county council, where they would already have been "stung" for want of a better expression, so if I damaged anything I’d have paid a premium to replace it. The other stuff was mainly 7.5ton boxes. I have never ruined a strip or job with wet application.

Wrapping is something I maybe shouldn’t have commented on, as I’ve never done it. I’ve just noticed how bad most of it is. For example, a BMW530d on ebay last week, was cheap because it needed a full respray due to the damage noticed once the wrap was removed. That is unlikely to be a small local fitter as it was a police car.

Signs have now taken a back seat with regards to my work, but I still have more than a passing interest. When I freehand coachline Rolls and Bentley, especially vintage, I don’t even put my jacket on the seats out of respect.

[Gavin MacMillan]

a wrapped police car? Never seen one but I would expect any vehicle where lots of class one reflective had been removed by all but the most dedicated person to show signs of damage. I’ve never had to remove this stuff myself but I would hazard a guess it would not be fun and a disclaimer would whipped out pretty quick!

G

[Steve Morgan]

If you wrap the car first it makes the removal of the reflective somewhat easier.

[Steve McAdie]

I remember seeing a wrapped police car years a go in a magazine, ironic but the claim was that the cost would pay for itself in a higher value for the car after its service life due to the new undamaged paintwork underneath. 😀

Steve

[Robert Lambie]

Police cars being wrapped is fact… a great many traffic police cars were and do still get wrapped in white prior to having the likes of 3M diamond grade reflective applied to them.
Traffic Polic cars are normaly high-end expensive cars. "white" a few years back was NOT a popular colour. there for when you take the following into consideration.
When you put the car to auction to sell on…
* The car was "white"
* everywhere the reflective kits had been applied, there was ghosting in the paint.
* In some caes the paintwork was damaged trying to remove the reflective due to its agressive adhesive and how thick the media is.

so all things considered, the car was heavyily devalued as a result or the cost of a respray was needed.
simply flooding the body in a white wrap vinyl is a cheap alternative as it preserves the paintwork perfectly underneath till its time to sell the car on.

[Gavin MacMillan]

every day’s a school day! 😀 Didn’t know they did that but makes sense!

[Robert Lambie]

vehicle wrapping came about due to a belgium or german taxi firms having to have their cars coloured a mustard, "i think" it was… so they were all wrapped for similar reason to above. i think at the time thise was all done using KPMF – VWS.

[Gavin MacMillan]

Aye I remember reading that in magazine a good few years back, makes a lot of sense really. Wrapping new vehicles for protection is a great idea really, we went about it the wrong way and waited till our van had been redone twice and had ghosting on it and then wrapped it.