advice on pricing sign job please

[Karl Williams]

How big is the sign mate? I know you said 30sq feet but actual size. £140 all in costs???

[Robert Lambie]

installing them where, different locations?

Is installation include in price?

as karl says, what is the sign size?

what is the size of the digital print?

has the digital print to be laminated?

what type of fixing brackets are being offered by the other company, wood or aluminium?

sorry for the questions, just nee a bit more feedback mate.

[Andrew Martin]

In this economic climate if your a small business and your work is B2B you will find a lot of people will work for very little profit making it hard to compete, in extreme cases for a short term strategy some will work for no profit as its better to break even than to have no work and go bust.

Also that certain price guide has over inflated prices of what you should charge, if your using that guide for B2B customers you will get no work.

[Andrew Wynn]

Damn you guys are quick!

Thanks for the replies and in answer to your questions, the actual size is 15 feet x 2 feet, all going to the same location, full colour digital print same size as the substrate and I assume laminated as they will be going outside.
Fixings I am unsure of at the moment, but I would imagine aluminium and yes, the installation is included in the price.

£140 is the price I worked out for the dibond and print, not including my labour sticking it all together, taking them all about 20 miles away and installing them or fixings costs . Very small amount to be made for just 1 sign, but a potentially massive order if we get all 160 and make bulk purchase cost savings.

Cheers for your help!

[Karl Williams]

I haven’t worked it out mate but seriously I wouldn’t do it for that price. Look at it this way, 1 mistake and your in deficit on the job straight away. As you’ve just started don’t take on a job that could bust you before you’ve started. And don’t get excited about the jobs that promise wonders and sh!t cucumbers. (As my dad used to say!)

[Gavin MacMillan]

Karl is right, can not even remember the amount of times we have been promised work of the back of a another job, it very rarely works out! I now offer the first part at normal price and offer the discount of the remainder. That way if nothing comes of it your not out of pocket.

[Mo Gillis-Coates]

Hi mate, your material costs seem a bit high, di-bond isn’t that expensive, but like everyone else here, that would be cheap even for me. unless you negotiate a contract to do a set amount, then you could work out your costs based on production rate.

I made a mistake last year of pricing a job based on 75 signs ordered. wasn’t much in each one but we worked out that we could make them all in 2 weeks so we based our mark up on that. When it came down to it, we ended doing less than half and the order was broken apart over 3 months so it wasn’t worth our while in the end. we didn’t lose any money but we certainly had to put more hours in to what we did.

GET A CONTRACT AND DEPOSIT! Just done a big order for a tv company, they signed and paid up front… it was easy peasy. In fact we have another 4 orders booked for next year on that basis. So it can be done, don’t get your arm twisted into submitting a low price based on could be’s. Some time you have to walk away, it hurts but you just have to.

We have just been asked to do some full colour wraps on 4x4s for exhibitions. But they are currently paying £500 a vehicle so want the same or less. It was 4 a month but we cant justify the cost so we had to walk away! OWCH! (this time last year id have bitten their arm off, and the business would have suffered for it)

[Jon Marshall]

£500 for a full wrap on a 4×4? It would cost more than that to print!

[Hugh Potter]

a cheap 8×4 composite panel is about £45 all in from robert horne, they don’t charge to do the couple of cuts required to make two 2.1m x 600mm that would make the 15×2 panel. digi print I sub out too, laminated is around £30 psm laminated, 2.2m print is therefore around £75 delivered. thats £120 in materials.

I’d not do the job for £180….

hour to design layout? another hour to prep and apply print to panels? an hour travel and whatever to install?

ok, not accounting for time I could make £60 a panel, £9600 total profit. that would be fine if they were in batches of 40, would take about a week for a couple of grand profit, in a week so ok but, I would make no promises, price as you would have to as if one sign, then offer a discount for the remaining jobs. As Gavin says above, these promises of ongoing work and big jobs rarely materialise beyond a cheap initial job – we’ve all done it, i’m sure but it’s not good sense really.

that said, if you can get a proper contract drawn up and agree the qty’s in batches, then go for it.

[Gert du Preez]

quote Hugh Potter:

a cheap 8×4 composite panel is about £45 all in from robert horne,

Lucky Sods! We pay about 110 Pounds excl VAT for the same size ( about GBP 170 for a 3000 x 1500 white / white sheet. Made in China…..)

I love using Composite alu, but due to the cost of it I price it the same as 3mm perspex.

Was it on this forum where I heard "any fool can be a busy fool" – seems very appropriate for this case!

[Paul Hughes]

Hi Andrew,

Dont forget the Price it guide prices are for one off jobs not this type of repeat multi order, i say in the beginning that it is a ‘guide’ and can not be all things to all men, i hope most would agree the guide price of £282.65 is far nearer to the mark for a one off.

Andrew Martin said
Also that certain price guide has over inflated prices of what you should charge, if your using that guide for B2B customers you will get no work.

the guide does not over inflate any prices, they are real prices surveyed for sign makers all over the country and compiled to form an average price, at no point do i say you must charge the price in the guide, i just present it as market research resulting in the presentation of the average market price for a given job, sure there are high and low prices all over mainly due to over capacity in the local market but to say they are over inflated is unfair. as for my own sign business i use the guide all the time and have more than enough work, Andrew Martin you must be in a very tough market if you think you would not get any work at the UKs average prices or may be you are marketing to the wrong type of customers? if you are happy with what you get, then good for you, i just dont want or have to work at prices below the guides prices, it is very easy to sell your self short in this industry.

The guide is just that a guide, it will work well for some and less for others.

as for the original question, my take on it would be unless they order largish batches then the price is too cheap, been there done that, you will end up driving 20 miles to fit one sign. give the discount on confirmed orders not on the promise of future jobs, which rarely turn up.

Paul

[Jon Marshall]

Its a pity more people don’t go by the prices in the guide, the sign business in undervalued in comparison to other businesses.

[David McDonald]

Hi

There is more information needed to establish the correct price – what durability is required (grade of print), whats involved in the install (do the panels need rails) etc.

If you used ‘hoarding panel’ grade ali comp (could be perfectly adequate depending on install location), 3-year grade monomeric digital / laminate (again might be suitable), and 3rd party inks then your raw materials would be more like £50 – £60 (Printing in house and buying boards in volume). I’m guessing if someone can print UV direct to board then this £50-£60 becomes cheaper still.

There are some jobs that you can only compete on if you have the kit in house, or you have enough installs that the 20 miles travel is only ever 5 miles on from the previous job etc. etc.

There will be some on here who would make decent money doing it at the rate you quoted and/or could do it for less. They wouldn’t be selling themselves short its just they are geared up for that type of job. However, there will be many many more who would make better money doing other jobs.

We wouldn’t target a new job at that money but would be happy if it was an existing customer who had an order history.

Cheers
Macky

[Raymond Doyle]

Hi Andrew can you tell me where i can find the price guide referred to in this conversation please, i am new to this site and feel it maybe of interest and benefit to me

kind regards
raymond 😎

[Steve McAdie]

priceitsignguide.com

[Andrew Martin]

quote Paul Hughes:

Hi Andrew,

Dont forget the Price it guide prices are for one off jobs not this type of repeat multi order, i say in the beginning that it is a ‘guide’ and can not be all things to all men, i hope most would agree the guide price of £282.65 is far nearer to the mark for a one off.

Andrew Martin said
Also that certain price guide has over inflated prices of what you should charge, if your using that guide for B2B customers you will get no work.

the guide does not over inflate any prices, they are real prices surveyed for sign makers all over the country and compiled to form an average price, at no point do i say you must charge the price in the guide, i just present it as market research resulting in the presentation of the average market price for a given job, sure there are high and low prices all over mainly due to over capacity in the local market but to say they are over inflated is unfair. as for my own sign business i use the guide all the time and have more than enough work, Andrew Martin you must be in a very tough market if you think you would not get any work at the UKs average prices or may be you are marketing to the wrong type of customers? if you are happy with what you get, then good for you, i just dont want or have to work at prices below the guides prices, it is very easy to sell your self short in this industry.

The guide is just that a guide, it will work well for some and less for others.

as for the original question, my take on it would be unless they order largish batches then the price is too cheap, been there done that, you will end up driving 20 miles to fit one sign. give the discount on confirmed orders not on the promise of future jobs, which rarely turn up.

Paul

Ok Paul maybe I was a little too harsh on the price it guide which I bought out of curiosity, But 90% of my work is digital printing and 70% of this is B2B and I make a reasonable profit from this as I do quantities. But your guide is geared towards cut vinyl and I cant see the market would stand those prices in your guide, even if I used your guide for pricing digital print via the full colour layout price for a one off banner my business customers would go to the cut price people that the internet is full of… even the average Joe public knows they can buy print very cheaply.
I don’t try to under cut the cheap Internet prices, neither do I price too high but I still make a living.

[Raymond Doyle]

thanks steve i have just ordered one, no more sticking my finger in the air and hoping for the best 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

[Paul Hughes]

Hi Andrew

if you can make a living out of it then that is the main thing 😀

the full colour side of the sign trade is one area that is taking a real beating on price, again largely due to over capacity in the market due in part to the lowering of the price of machines and people purchasing machines for a set job and then realizing they can now also sell signs!

I dont understand what you mean by B2B? i would guess most signs are supplied to businesses, unless you make a lot of birthday banners or house names! or due you mean trade? to another sign maker /printer?
if so then no the guide is not set up for the latter. The guide is set up for the jobbing sign maker, van today, sign board tomorrow etc, it may not cover quantities that well as it is set up for individual jobs.

First off this is not aim at you andrew more a general statement. alot of the time the person most reluctant to a price rise is the the seller as they think they will lose work, not always the case, tell them what they get for the price and why they should use you, that is hard to do if you are just selling ‘digital printing’ if you are selling them there brand, image and the sign that brings customers through the door it alot easier, it is now not a commodity anyone can do its a custom made product that has more perceived value. if you sell on price alone your customers will soon be off to the next cheaper supplier.

What i am trying to say is that by changing how you sell an item can change what you can get for it and the guide prices are real prices that customers will and do pay very easily

david is also right if you are geared up to do a set job you could be making good money at that price, but not so if you are not.

paul

[Andrew Martin]

quote Paul Hughes:

Hi Andrew

I dont understand what you mean by B2B? i would guess most signs are supplied to businesses, unless you make a lot of birthday banners or house names! or due you mean trade? to another sign maker /printer?
if so then no the guide is not set up for the latter. The guide is set up for the jobbing sign maker, van today, sign board tomorrow etc, it may not cover quantities that well as it is set up for individual jobs.

paul

Most of my B2B customers are large businesses that are the end users, and sometimes they need a quantity of banners, so obviously i have to price accordingly, but on the odd occasion they may require just one, i used the price guide once for this and it did not go down very well… its a fine balancing act to get digital prices right these days.

I have a few trade customers and they are quoted on completely different.. as you say the guide is not set up for this.

[Mo Gillis-Coates]

quote Jon Marshall:

£500 for a full wrap on a 4×4? It would cost more than that to print!

sorry i said full colour… i meant colour change

[Jon Marshall]

Even that’s a joke price..

[Martin Pearson]

Like some of the others have said the promise of more work is often thrown in to try and get a reduced price and very rarely do you actually get any extra work so always be wary of customers who tell you that.

Have you seen a quote from another company or is the customer just telling you he is currently paying 180 + VAT and also why iare they asking you to quote at the same price?? Is there a problem with their current supplier & if there is maybe it’s down to the price being to cheap.

What experience if any do you have with the sign industry, not just the manufacturing side but installation as well, you seem to know little about the installation of these boards & those costs alone could be far higher that the price of the boards. Do you already have the right equipment to carry out the installations or would that also be something you would have to buy.

All sounds a bit negative but it’s not meant to be, as someone has already said it would be easy to take on a job like this and find yourself well out of pocket before you have even got up and running properly.

Best of luck with what ever you decide to do anyway.

[Andrew Wynn]

Well chaps, what can I say!

I am overwhelmed by the response to this, thanks for all your input.

Firstly I’d like to say, without the price it guide, I would be knackered when even trying to price a job! So hats off to Paul, thanks for your product.

Second, I just learned that what the guy told me was Dibond, turned out to be Correx, so now everything makes sense and we can definitely get amongst this!

Martin, I based this line of questioning without seeing the site itself, the alarm bells started to ring when I was told £180 including install for Dibond, now I know its Correx, its a different kettle of fish! But that’s why I questioned the costs of producing the dibond signs for so little. I have a few years experience working for someone else behind me, but none in working for myself!

If all works out, I’ll let you all know the outcome, and I’d like to thank you all for your advice.

Cheers

Andy

[Neil Davey]

quote Mo Gillis-Coates:

quote Jon Marshall:

£500 for a full wrap on a 4×4? It would cost more than that to print!

sorry i said full colour… i meant colour change

That sounds extremely cheap for a full colour change on a 4×4 Mo!!

What material do you use and how long does it take you?

We’ve been asked and I guess-timated at least 2 days and quite a bit of material.

[Robert Lambie]

Quoted £1280 & £1480 for two solid colour car wrap changes not so long ago, on a fiesta sized car and one a bit larger. forget the type. got the job no questions asked. wrap time 48hrs from drop off. no it doesnt take that long but thats the minimum time i specify. having recently spoken to a couple of wrap instructors they tell me now 3 days minimum. which i thought difficult to push to a customer, but do totally agree with them.

wrapping is a skill, a trade in itself… price properly and take your time. why the rush?

[Martin Pearson]

Andrew, just goes to show how much difference the actual substrate used can alter the price. You have now gone from a job that seemed to be far to cheap to what is probably a pretty good price depending on the installation. Wasn’t having a go but without knowing what the installation problems might be I couldn’t see how you could put a price on the job.
At least you have a few years experience so sorting out what is required for that shouldn’t be a problem for you.

[Jotson Bailey]

quote Andrew Wynn:

So I guess I have 3 questions

2) should we quote on this job, with the risk of working for nothing if we only get one or two orders, but possibly getting the lot, making it viable.

Sorry if I’ve gone on a bit of a ramble there!

Any advice would be appreciated, cheers guys!

Andrew

My idea about this question is that if its not worth the risk then don’t do it. You can’t sacrifice a lot for a single gig, you can find something much better. Always remember to looking for a client that, make sure they will be willing to pay for the worth of your service. Give them clear quotes and details so that they will fully understand the conditions that you set and what to expect.