advice on applying black oracal 751 on polycarb or acrylic?

[Gordon Forbes]

Try perfect tear app tape keeps nice an flat should help if I read your post right and aren’t using application tape.

If I’m wrong ignore me LOL

Goop.

[Andrew Ward]

I tend to apply most stuff dry. But this is big sized stuff. So i suggest you wet the vinyl & the substrate…really wet, water & soap. Then with an extra pair of hands, slide the vinyl in place.By wetting the substrate, that should remove any static.

For really big stuff, you may need to peel & fold the vinyl backing paper in half, then wet the substrate & vinyl & work in sections. BTW try not to get the backing paper still attached to the vinyl too wet, as this will give you problems later on.

[Shane Drew]

Hi mate,

as goop says, a lot of your problems will be fixed if you apply application tape to the vinyl first, wether you are applying it wet or dry. It will stop it stretching too.

To keep it straight you could use the hinge method, either wet or dry too.

Cheers

[Darrell Wootton]

Many thanks for the advice.

Just a couple of questions:

1. You mentioned wetting the vinyl and substrate, we use a small spray gun at present and spray a fine mist onto the substrate only, do you mean wet both surfaces?
2. If I apply lots of liquid, will I need to apply heat to help dry out and bond the vinyl?
3. Can you please expand on the hinged method?
4. What type of tools would you use for applying the vinyl – ie squeegee type etc

Thanks

Daz…..

[Shane Drew]

1. You mentioned wetting the vinyl and substrate, we use a small spray gun at present and spray a fine mist onto the substrate only, do you mean wet both surfaces?

Yes mate, wet both the substrate and the vinyl with a wetting agent. I usually only wet the vinyl, but both surfaces will make it easier. If the mist is too fine, it will be no help at all. More can be better in this situation. Especially with 751 because its a solvent based glue. A water based gliue would be a different matter

2. If I apply lots of liquid, will I need to apply heat to help dry out and bond the vinyl?

Shouldn’t have too. The secret is squeegeeing in a pattern that covers the whole surface uniformally. Work from the centre in an outward motion. make sure your squeegee has a sharp edge, as any nicks in the edge will introduce bubbles into the application. Overlap each stroke by 1/3. This should expell all the fluid and leave a good result. If you use soap tho, be aware that too much soap will reduce the ‘sticking power’ until the moisture drys. A dedicated vinyl agent is a better option.

3. Can you please expand on the hinged method?

The hinge method is where you measure the premasked vinyl to sit in the correct place on the substrate. Then, tape the top edge, half over the premasked material, and half on the substrate. This makes a hinge.

This lets you pull the backing away, spray both surfaces, and the 751 will still be positioned ready to lay. You have no concerns with the position with this method as you have already measured it before you started.

4. What type of tools would you use for applying the vinyl – ie squeegee type etc

This is a personal preference, but I us the 3M gold squeegee because it is quiet stiff and expels fluid rather well.

Hope that helps mate,

[Darrell Wootton]

DSI,

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Daz….

[Darrell Wootton]

One option I have considered instead of the acrylic\polycarb and vinyl is using a substrate called Alupanel (2mm,3mm,4mm) instead of 6mm acylic\polycarb.

It is 2 pieces of aluminium that sandwich a plastic\ruber compound centre. It already as a satin black finish and is suitable for outside use.

I had considered cutting the apertures for the digits and then using clear polycarbonate or acrylic for the apertures, so the digits could be seen through it.

However I am a little concerned over the following:

1. Cutting the apertures when the sheets are quite large (we dont own a cnc router)
2. Bonding the acrylic \ polycarb to the back of the alupanel securely
3. How to use or join 2 pieces of alupanel (for larger jobs 4000 x 2200)

I think you guys use something similar called dibond, according to the forum.

What would be your view on using something like dibond as apposed to alupanel, considering my 3 concerns above and it usage?

Thanks

Daz…..

[Shane Drew]

Hi Mate,

We have a product here called alupanel which sounds similar.

You can use vhb tape to bond the panels together.

My only concern would be outside life, and price. I think it is only rated 5 years externally? and here at least it is frightfully expensive. I think it comes from Europe, so price may not be a problem at your end.

You can cut it with a drop or plunge router if the shapes to be cut out are basic (square or rectangle)

Shane

[Robert Lambie]

sounds like the same stuff shane, it costs about £70 a 3m x 1.5m over here i think…
alucolour is basically the same as di-bond, rynabond etc just different finishes in colour and the like.

again, as shane says a good VHB tape will bond it or even a two part adhesive, name/number4r slips me, i use a 3m make on that too..

cutting it can be done using hand held router or simply use a jigsaw, Ive even managed to cut the stuff with a Stanley knife but wouldn’t advise, it does work all the same.
the alucolour is lighter than the acrylic and cheaper, but max size is 3×1.5

a good solution would be if flex-face came in clear, maybe it does but Ive never heard of it. or another option would be using a flexface box but maybe using a black banner material with fused in clear sections where digits show? then again, that would maybe have a bad finish…

to be honest i think the way your doing it now is pretty straight forward, its just a pitty your not round the corner from me ide show you what i mean by applying it dry. even at the sorta size.
you have demo access, have a look at the pub sign i did, the brown sign with cream letters. you will see one of our guys covering a fairly large sheet of metal in brown vinyl. using that method with one guy holding another applying. then look at the video download of me applying vinyl to a 2×2 foot panel of vinyl and i assure you it does work well. thats after you practice that is… 😕 just study the technique i use cutting down into the vinyl in swipes rather than laying the vinyl; in regimental strokes.
many folk apply vinyl like this as its the way/method used for wet application, but doing it dry is a fair bit different.

[Shane Drew]

Daz, I’d look at using an expanded foam pvc material. We call it Fourex here (no not the beer!) but you can get it in 3000 x 1500 sheets. Much better than most things because it is UV resistant, has a 5 year life outside, and you can cut it with a stanley knife. There is another similar product here called foamex and celtec.

Easy to use and carry. I use it a lot for all sorts of signs. Comes in 3mm (colours) and 6mm (white) I think.

just a thought.

Shane

[Darrell Wootton]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the feedback. Fortunately I do have a little time to get my head round these upcoming jobs.

The material needs to have good impact resistance from cricket balls etc.

I have been thinking about the aluminum composite sheets and if I used them how I would construct the fascia with the apertures.

I think that maybe the best way to proceed might be:

1. Mark out the apertures on the alu composite (4mm thick panels for example)
2. Cut out with a jigsaw or router
3. Cut the 6mm polycarb 1″ wider on all sides than the apertures.
3. Rebate all around the edge of the polycarb. (1″ in from edge and 4mm deep)
4. The polycarb could then sit into the aperture whilst being unable to fall thru due to the rebated edges on the back.
5. Cement, rivet, seal the polycarb from the back.
6. Add the vinyl text onto the composite sheets.

It sounds like it could work in principle, but it depends on the time it would take to get the job done.

Also from a cost point of view it may be cheaper than using polycarb. (Lexan)

Thanks

Daz….

[Nigel Fraser]

It sounds like you’ve got it pretty sorted now Daz, but just a thought for what it’s worth… You could use a mask vinyl over the clear areas on the reverse of your lexan and then paint the black on and then remove the masks ? You might find it easier over large areas than solid vinyl.
The only thing with using the aluminium laminate over large areas is it might get dented if it was hit with a ball ? but by the sounds of it the cost of polycarb is going through the roof in Jan, so you may need to look for an alternative anyway 🙄
Hope that helps a little.
Nigel

[Darrell Wootton]

Hi Nigel,

I have already looked at the possibilty of painting the polycarb.

I can only find one company who supply the specialist paint that correctly adheres to polycarb, its comes in a 1 pack system.

It needs to be sprayed on using correct equipment and needs extraction systems etc like when you spray a car.

The paint costs about £25.00 litre and the minimum order is £100 and it has a low shelf life and shelf life conditions are critical.

I have sent peices of polycarb for them to test the paint on and I am awaiting the samples return. Although I think it will be a no-go solution because of the problem of having to sub out the work to specialist painters, who will no doubt charge a fortune.

Daz….

[Shane Drew]

You are right Daz, had some experience painting polycarb too. If it is not done right it will craze and look crap.

There is a product here that is a clear liquid that you spray on first, and acts as a bonding agent. I’ll ask around and see how successful it is. They use it a lot for fibreglass over here.

shane

[Darrell Wootton]

Thanks Shane,

I would be interested to hear what it is called?

Daz…

[David Marsh]

quote Wardie:

I tend to apply most stuff dry. But this is big sized stuff. So i suggest you wet the vinyl & the substrate…really wet, water & soap. Then with an extra pair of hands, slide the vinyl in place.By wetting the substrate, that should remove any static.

For really big stuff, you may need to peel & fold the vinyl backing paper in half, then wet the substrate & vinyl & work in sections. BTW try not to get the backing paper still attached to the vinyl too wet, as this will give you problems later on.

Sorry to butt in on this 😉

I’m trying to do a similar thing with lighting boxes, laying vinyl over acrylic to mask off shapes then backlighting. Am I right in thinking that the ‘tacky’ side of the vinyl is wetted so that it slips? It would explain alot of the problems I’ve been having 😳

[Bill Dewison]

Tanman, yep, its the sticky side down. The water/app fluid acts as a barrier between the acrylic and the glue of the vinyl, allowing you to reposition, then once you have it in the right place, you can remove the barrier by squeeging it out. 😀

Cheers, Dewi