Advice needed on purchasing Banner Tape please?

[Phill Fenton]

Versacamm 😀

It’s up to date and will do more for less running cost

[Rodney Gold]

Tio cut to the chase , here are the pros and cons or both

Thermal/Edge

cons: High cost of consumables , 2 machines required , poor resolution when doing small stuff , proprietory software , old technology , competiton from cheaper inkjet systems.

Pros: better durability , can print spots and metallics and white , can print on some stuff the versacam would have problems with , lots of “specialised” materials ,

Inkjet Versacam

Cons: Cant print metallics or white , unless you colour match the system spots can be problematic , density of print is less than thermal as is durability, Issues with very small decals curling at the edge when printing full coverage and cutting on the printed section. Laminator required ??

Pros: Print and cut in one machine, EXTREMELY low cost of consumables , excllent resolution and photo quality printing , huge range of “printables” , faster speed , software independant , choice of rips , higher profits to be made.

The laminator thing is not a problem , for short term stuff you don’t need to laminate , but either the edge or the versacam WILL need an overlam for decals that are to survive in harsh environments (albeit the edge’s out IS more durable uncoated) .
Thing is , we offer our laminated and die cut decals at a far higher price and thus margins , they are “tuffguarded” and are guaranteed impervious to solvents etc etc , something you CANT guarantee with uncoated thermal.
You also have a choice of how to laminate and can change the effect of a graphic (matt , gloss , textured etc)

If you are doing labels and decals like we do , the choice is actually a no brainer , inkjet is way more versatile than thermal (We have the Rolands and looked into getting an edge even WITH us having a soljet – the Edge guys were honest and told us their system couldnt do the resolution or small detail we wanted)
As to costs , well at worst , ink useage is about 2ml (60 pence) per sq ft , so a 2″ x 1″ decal is less than 1 pence in terms of inks , most likely the same in terms of vinyls.
The mettalic print issue is not that much of an issue either , as one can print onto gold and silver with a versacam and thus , by leaving areas unprinted , can get gold or silver printing (Its a workaround and is not the same as thermally printing gold and silver)
I have both systems , thermal and inkjet albeit my thermal is the “poor relation” of the edge and would dump thermal at the drop of a hat if my inkjet could do it all , the point I’m making however is that despite its “limitations” , my inkjet is the major producer of my stickers and decals.

[Nigel Fraser]

Some, good points raised by Rodney (as usual 😉 ) – I have run my edge 2 for 18months now and also weighed up the pros/cons of the inkjet option although the Versacam wasn’t available when I ordered mine. I have used it a fair bit for the sort of thing you have mentioned and to be fair it is very good at doing that sort of job. Especially the spot colours which are available as a good range and deffinately the ability to print white.
If you go inkjet and want to print window stickers (i.e. coloured text/logo on a white background for example) how would you do it ? I guess you would have to print as normal, take the material out and apply white flood of vinyl, then re-register and cut both layers, I don’t know if re-registering is possible with the versacam or not? Where the same job on the edge would be a piece of cake – I know this is a specific example but if you are looking at doing window stickers then it’s fairly important too. I assume most people appreciate that printing with either thermal or inkjet onto clear will almost always require a backing coat to make it visable properly as the inks/foils are quite transparent. Also there are a good range of materials available like security label stock, static cling, reflective, polycarbonate membrane etc. and you can print in fluorescent colours too.

Also remember the cost of edge foils has come down recently and I am now paying nearly half the price I was paying from Spandex when I started with the machine so for example 500x 75mm square labels printed in 2 colours onto white 5/7 yr vinyl would now cost about £26 to produce. I don’t know how this compares with the versacam but its still allowing a good margin of profit in my opinion.
I sound like I am biased towards the edge but I’m not – it’s just horses for courses and if you want to do that sort of stuff then it might be the best option, but look into it carefully because I do still source large format prints quite a bit as the edge is not a worthy competitor in this market.

Hope that helps a little !

Nigel

[Robert Lambie]

im not clued up enough to give fair comment but based on what i have heard and read up on ide go for the versacamm.
i know you dont want to laminate and “not” that it is always neccesary, if “at all” with the work you want to use it for. but, ide go for the cadet at the same price. (true solvent printer – not eco solvent)

[Pryam Carter]

Some good points raised here. Very interesting. 😉
Maybe the cadet is as good an option, the print durability on the versacamm is suspect in my opinion. 😕 I tend to laminate pretty much everything thats come out of my versacamm. Then again, short term stickers, l don’t do many. (?)

[eddie cotter]

keep em comming!! i have had labels done on the versacamm
& the quality was pure crap!!!!!! Well i didnt know any better until i got the same job done on the edge, same file, quality was fantastic, why!
every one says the edge cant do small text, from what ive seen
its just fine, when i questioned the roland people that did the prints for me
they told me the usualy use the low res setting as its faster & uses less ink
so does that mean for proper quality work, the versacam is realy more expensive on ink, also some labels i got done on the versa, started lifting around the edge, even the client complained! apparently if the ink is printed to the edge it burns in to the vinyl & starts to lift!, as rodney explained erlier
now if the versa takes all four colours to make one, say red letters on white back, shurley thats using unessasery ink, the edge uses just one spot colour, i think, whats the cadet machine, who makes it, ive not heard of one before,, many thanks for all your help gang!, i have to make some phone calls, tomorrow to either go ahead with the edge or not! 😮

[Rodney Gold]

Hiya all
With an inkjet you print window graphics on clear without cutting , overlam white and cut thru both layers (very easy)
The learning curve to colour match on an inkjet is higher and calibration is an issue (from input device etc) , this will be in regard to spots. The major downside to any thermal printing is the cost of consumables , often 10x more than inks. All printing is a layer atop a substrate and the scratch resisitance is a function of the thickness of the layer and its adherance.
At 26 quid for 500 75mm x 75mm labels , which is 3 sq meters means a price of about 8 quid a sq meter which is pretty good.
Ink costs on the versacam run at max to 20ml per sq meter which is about 6 – 7 quid EXCLUDING the cost of vinyl. Pretty much a close thing there. In terms of decal printing and cutting , one can get away with much higher margins than general printing , so thermal vs inkjet is not so much of an issue , for larger format stuff , thermal cannot compete at all.
Should you go for full solvent , the problem of edge curling becomes far worse. In terms of ink useage , if it does take 4 colours to make one spot , you use 1/4 for each colour so it’s 6 of one and 1/2 a dozen of another. Eddie , I cant understand why the decal or versacam print quality was bad unless it was printed badly. I go down to really tiny tiny stuff that prints marvellousy on my Soljet and thus should print just as well on a versacam. Using low res is just faster , it doesnt use less ink or if it does , its not like 1/2 of high quality , mayber 90% . Using low res for decals that have small print on em is sheer stupidity , even the speed issue is negligable as it often takes 5x longer to cut decals as to print em. The edge guys that demoed the system to me couldnt print small text – especially metallic , without it appearing very blotchy – but they were heads up against my PC60.
The edge curling thing when cutting on printed areas is a BIG problem and the only way to stop it 100% is to print , lam then cut or to wait a day or so before cutting , both are inconvenient (tho I have a customer whom I do 40 000 decals at a time for , they dome them and apply an artists fixative first and the curling seems to be a non issue)
That is also another problem , doming. Inkjet output can run when being domed , depending on the doming resin – thermal doesn’t. Lamination cures all this tho and adds a MAJOR measure of protection to the label , enabling you to give some very good guarantees (like being solvent proof , even acetone) apart from anything else , lamination adds a little thickness to the product and makes it easier to appl – we view lamination as an added service , vital to finish a print , and not a schlep

I think with these niggles in mind and your aversion to laminate , an Edge system might be the better way to go if your major thrust is die cut decals.

[Henry Barker]

Eddie,

I don’t see how people compare Edge with Inkjet, there was a big debate on this awhile back.

You have to look at your own neéds and your own market. I have always been suspect of “printed media” and manufacturers claims.

Was working late last night with a screen salesman, helping him out, and we talked about what signshops invest in, and he mentioned one shop that had several large format printers all scrap for various reasons, all standing in the store at the back of the shop, none of them had lived up to manufacturers claims. But he was out of pocket for a considerable sum, spanning several years.

Everytime you go to a trade show you are bombarded with these machines, all promising this that and the other, only to be superceded a couple of years later by something even better, or so they say.

I was determined not to join that ratrace, but then, an Edge came along at the right price, and I already had the software and Gerber plotters, and in my case thought that runs of decals to existing customers would beef up their orders, making better vehicle liveries using photoshop techniques or doing fades or other simple effects on multilayered vinyl jobs would sell more work, which it does, and saves me time, and clogging in my airbrushes using waterbased paints!

The Edge is small but I’ve done parts of larger 3 x 8m signs using the Edge, its been around a good many years works really well in its marketplace, if it didn’t we’d be on Edge 10 or 11 by now, I’ve never regretted buying it and I don’t use it daily.

I have been asked about half a dozen times in 12 years to print posters, but regularly get asked about small runs of decals etc.

Check out what market you have and choose the machine to match that.

[Rodney Gold]

Hi Henry
In terms of comparison , one can compare any printer to another , these machines all do the same thing , print colour onto various substrates.

I think one should rather check out the potential market rather than the market you already have , and buy accordingly. I have bought many machines that compliment exisiting markets and customers rather than buying machines specifically for my exisiting markets , IE I have bought machines that can fulfill exisiting orders and do stuff that I couldnt before thus offering better quality , more variety and of course reduced costs.

ALL the manfacturers I have bought machines from overstate their case in many respects , they are all competing in a graphics market , they all want to sell machinery and always sprout chapter and verse about their “best case” scenarios.
I’m pretty sceptical and when making major purchases of this nature , I want to see the machines do what *I* need in real life conditions , if they can’t , I just pass.
When I “test” a machine , I always set it the most difficult task , normally at the machines limits or beyond. How the machine handles this is vital for me as it establishes just how far it can be pushed or what it CANT do which is much more important to me than seeing salepersons demonstrations of what I know it can do.

[James kelly]

I cannot fault my Versacamm in any way. The print quality is superb and the prints easily pass the ‘finger-rub’ test as in the ‘should it do this’ posts. I presume whoever sent you the samples, doesn’t know their ar$e from their elbow with this machine.

[Dave Standen]

Hi Folks
This will always be the argument – Edge V VersaCamm – That’s why they’re priced the same – they are the 2 machines to fight the case.

To be honest I can see no reason why the Edge or the VersaCamm should be better in a general sense. The point is better at what kind of work? If you’re talking Process CMYK, and the file is right – the VersaCamm SHOULD give better results. (I’d like to see the crap labels) One day someone will have both and be able to advise us all on what each can do.

I’m told that a weak point with the VersaCamm is RED reproduction – or the ability to produce a decent range of reds. Anyone got comments on that? That would be the fault of the ink set.

The Edge is claimed at 300dpi. A more sensible expression would be 180dpi – just compare prints to any inkjet at 300dpi. and see for yourself.

So we must all accept that VersaCamm SHOULD produce CMYK prints to a higher standard than the Edge – but are they as durable – possibly not. Are they durable enough? In some situations maybe – as unprotected vehicle graphics – I think not. So the Edge prints are more durable – Yes.

What about single, 2 colour, white or Metallic printing? The Edge has it there I think!

How about ease of operator use? – I think the VersaCamm has that one!

Horses for courses gentlemen – both machines have their place, maybe even in the same workshop! One is no better than the other – except in their own special fields. Can you manage with just one – of course – any of them will do, which do you fancy ? It boils down to individual choice to suite individual work types available to particular individuals.

How about an Inkjet to print WHITE – now available from Mimaki – a UV drying ink! in a new UV drying inkjet. How long before we get a Matt Silver & Gold! Then it would be easier to say which machine would be better – but then you’ll also have to bring price back into the argument.

Regards Dave Standen

[Rodney Gold]

Hiya dave
Currently, in theory, you can assign cartridge slots to specific colours so white, gold or silver (if you could GET the inks) is a possibility (as is any colour)
Yeh , and we DO run thermal and inkjet in the same workshop, as you say, each has its place 🙂
I haven’t had a problem with my so lets and reds , tho I run 2 extra inks , oranges are a problem – colour gamut is a function of the ink sets and the RIP as well as the printers LPI performance , some do better than others here, in general in current inkjet printing the more aggressive the solvent , the smaller the colour gamut
As to UV inks , well adherence to flexible substrates is a problem as is the price of the inks (essentially, they don’t adhere to vinyl well at all and any flex in the substrate is a recipe for disaster)
Heres a wishlist or perhaps a prediction of where things are going re digiprintig
1) Cheap opaque bulk feed inksets with the ability to easily change ink types and colours (perhaps a removable "head" module you can load with solvent, semi solvent, aqueous etc)
2) Roll-fed /flatbed and 3d laser-guided printing in the same machine
imagine if you could put 1000 pens in your machine and print em in full colour (that type thing)
3) Built-in overcoating or lamination systems
4) Laser cutting built-in – especially for flatbeds
5) Flash curable inks (similar to UV but without UVs problems)
6) Self-colour calibrating software/hardware (WYSIWYG)
7) Manufacturers that actually tell it like it is
8) Manufacturers that don’t insist you are tied into their inks, media etc
9) some semblance of uniformity when testing for durability, so we can compare apples with apples.
Ah we can all dream!!!!