Advice for new contractor

[David Hammond]

I think there is demand for contract fitters, especially with smaller companies, where they don’t have the staff or equipment to do it themselves.

I know two lads, who run seperate companies, but work together as well doing trade work, as well as their own work.

Typically they work on day rate. I’ve had lots of conversations with them over the years, and they do encounter problems like below.

You rock up on site with your the sign, the client see’s the sign, and it the wrong colour, or there’s a bubble, and it is you who takes the flack.

You get booked for a day or more, rock up to collect the sign and it’s not ready, and loose x days work.

You rock up to site and find there’s a load of remedial work required before you can fit the sign, you have to tell the client, your customer expects you to sort it as you’re being paid to install it.

You rock up on site, and the sign doesn’t fit.

Probably not every customer but something to consider how you will handle it… we have paid for subbie, who got to site, decided it was unsafe to fit as the foundation couldn’t go deep enough, and left site. :blushing:

From our perspective, it is hard to find reliable contractors, without paying a hefty premium.

[Dan james]

Cheers for the reply

Yeah I know what your saying so basically be in the game to get the job done not just get out of there when shit hits the fan.
I know exactly what you mean though I’ve worked with contractors who don’t care sometimes and it does drain on the day when you want something to look good and they just want to go home.

Im currently a one man band though got all my tools and a van but was hopeing to apply to companies just as myself to work alongside with them almost like an extra hand, have you ever came across this or more they want contractor teams to come in and get the job done.

So you reckon day rate, that was another worry of mine not got a clue of rates yet wasn’t sure wether to go daily or hourly would be great to get other people opinion on day rate or hourly. I would ask you how much but Im not sure wether they shut me down on the forum or not 😆 .

Appreciate the reply though mate spot on

Cheers dan

[David Hammond]

Yes, there are freelance fitters who will help out owners, and there are jobs where it only needs 1 man to do it.

Realisticly a 1hr job isn’t a 1hr job, once you’ve picked the sign up, travelled to site, set up, fitted, packed up, done the invoice.

It’s a case of finding what works for you. :thumbsup:

[Chris Wilson]

Would agree with David.
Big jobs we are a full day rate (anything up to 7 hours really) and then anything that could take even just an hour we are a half day rate. Sometimes I will be nice and split that rate between 2 jobs if there next to each other or close by.

We had it just last week. Customer gave us a rural address and said it was 45mins. Hour and half later we got there, and I can’t say I sat at 50 the whole way there either.

As for the rate itself I would look at various sign companies within your area and see what they would pay a “fitter” I.e 25k a year etc.. break it down to an hourly rate, then add a bit on top to make sure your covering fuel, can repairs, tyres, new tools etc.. and there’s your half day and full day rate.

I would also be charging a lot more for your rope access. I believe tree surgeons add a hefty wack onto there hourly rate once there above 4m.

I could be wrong of course. We are all the way up top of Scotland and it’s a different kettle of fish up here.

[Dan james]

Ok spot on guys so day rates what I really need to be doing.

What would you say about cancelations as well Im slightly worried that as the sign trade is all last minute and stuff changes all the time that say someone books me and cancels a day two day before then I’m screwed would you put a 7 day no cancelation fee on any work accepted or do you think this would be frowned upon.

Also what about late payments have any of you experienced struggling to get people to pay, someone told me to put a 30% late fee on every invoice but again how likely is that a company is going to pay that without falling out with them.

Yes ide like to think thats true but theres so many people in rope access that its generally rope access people that then do signs not sign people that do rope access so the pays not anything special, some of the vinyl jobs I’ve been on where I could have put it on with my feet better than they were doing. But again I suppose its like your saying if I make a name for myself and do a decent job then people will pay more.

cheers guys

[Chris Wilson]

Not sure what to suggest regarding cancellation fee.

Late payers. Always happens. You can’t actually enforce that fee I believe. We stick one on . It’s makes some people panic and pay a lot faster than they normally would. Never enforced it though.

I would imagine you would strike up a bit of a relationship with people your working with. Use your gut. If some one looks a bit dodgy or rough round the edges, then make sure payment terms are spelled out, if it’s a big firm expect payment at the end of the month. Good and friendly communication is key I would say. Friendly phone call or drop by is always better than a rude but to the point email.

[David Hammond]

Non refundable deposit upfront, balance on completion.

[Simon Worrall]

Get good insurance.

[Martyn Heath]

I used to do sub contract work and still have many contacts in the game. As you said you already know the game so you also know its a nightmare :bangshead:. Cancellations and last minute jobs seem to be apart of the life and something you just have to accept. I dont personally see how you can get any cancellation fees you just have to swollow it.

With your skills, tickets and experience i would be aiming big. Start off by contacting larger firms that are more likely to be doing bigger installs. I think you would be a valued member to any team so dont sell yourself short.

Day rate is normally how it works, as its easy for the sign company to price jobs etc. Now rates depend on where you are im guessing. My old stomping ground essex and london was anything between 120-180 a day plus mileage but this was for normal signage and graphic installs. Anything that is using your tickets (rope work etc) should come at a premium which could be anything upto double that in my opinion.

Anyway good luck, be patient, it often takes 6 months- a year to build good reliable contacts that keep you busy throughout the month.

[David Rogers]

quote Martyn Heath:

I used to do sub contract work…
Day rate is normally how it works, as its easy for the sign company to price jobs etc. Now rates depend on where you are im guessing. My old stomping ground essex and london was anything between 120-180 a day plus mileage but this was for normal signage and graphic installs. Anything that is using your tickets (rope work etc) should come at a premium which could be anything upto double that in my opinion.

Anyway good luck, be patient, it often takes 6 months- a year to build good reliable contacts that keep you busy throughout the month.

For me that’d be worryingly inexpensive even here in ‘cheap’ Scotland. I can easily command 1.5 to 3x a day rate as a subcontractor plus travel, access and any extras. I have some 20 minute jobs I get £very, very good money for (easy, high value product install)…others I struggle to get £30 an hour busting my proverbials as the client sees no value. For skilled installation such as dangling off a building I’d be taking GOOD money and a flat initial rate paid up front plus extras billed separately.
I never have issues getting paid in full upfront for new contracts… don’t take work otherwise , avoids the cancellation issues too, (be fair with cancellation policy though, just bill for what you lost…if you filled it immediately, don’t be greedy.). Present yourself as a company, be friendly and professional. Offer pre, during and post install photos… document the lot (as if you were being watched)…prove EVERYTHING you’ve done. Number and type of fixings, depth of holes, blah blah. List the snags (there’s ALWAYS snags with sub work) and your onsite solutions. Never abort a job unless it is IMPOSSIBLE to complete. And always, always check it’s all present and correct before you start!

[David Hammond]

We’ve paid similar to the prices Dave mentions for contractors. Plus extra for weekends, out of hours.

Some contractors work on a 10hr day, others an 8hr, + Mileage, + Access equipment, and we’ve had others tell us how much per hour beyond their day rate… and it gets silly expensive then. :yikes:

Signmakers seem notoriously unreliable, so do not undervalue your service, we have paid a more expensive contractor in favour of reliability.

Whatever you decide, agree everything in writing.

[David Rogers]

quote David Hammond:

…

Typically they work on day rate. I’ve had lots of conversations with them over the years, and they do encounter problems like below.

You rock up on site with your the sign, the client see’s the sign, and it the wrong colour, or there’s a bubble, and it is you who takes the flack.

You get booked for a day or more, rock up to collect the sign and it’s not ready, and loose x days work.

You rock up to site and find there’s a load of remedial work required before you can fit the sign, you have to tell the client, your customer expects you to sort it as you’re being paid to install it.

You rock up on site, and the sign doesn’t fit.

Had them all…

…including fitting signs that the client had done the site surveys on 3yr old Google Streetviews and guessed every size…and less than accurate photos of locations / working heights…or even the right unit fascia.

Out of hours costs I run on a ‘fixed appearance fee’ to get us on site plus a bracketed scale as we do a lot of shopping mall fittings. 6.00 to 8.00 / 8.00 to 10.00pm / 10.00 to midnight / midnight onwards…at yes, silly, silly rates. (Offsetting not being fit to work the next day)

[Martyn Heath]

Seems like money in the big smoke isn’t as good as people think then. I must admit thr lower end of the scale was for companies that were giving 3 or 4 days a week on a regular basis. Night work was 3 times that, so with working day and going onto a night job you was on good coinage.

[David Hammond]

Or you were simply targetting the wrong kind of customers. I’ve paid London fitters too, and they were more expensive than our Northern ones.

We try and price ourselves out of unsociable hours, as it does bugger the week up. We had one customer who told us it costs what it costs… until they got the bill for ovee £900 😆

[Colin Crabb]

quote :

We try and price ourselves out of unsociable hours, as it does bugger the week up. We had one customer who told us it costs what it costs… until they got the bill for ovee £900

hahaha like it!

[Iain Pearson]

Dan, where are you based ?
I’m always on the look out for additional help around the uk

[Simon Worrall]

Dude I would pay you a small fortune to not have to hang off that building. :smiles:

[Iain George]

I charge £150 for 8 hrs including travel time and up to 30 miles of fuel. After 30 miles it is 28 p per mile. Anything over 8hrs is at £20 per hour or part of. The 8 hours is any 8 between 06:00 and 18:00. This is due to being near London and having to be on site for 8 am in the centre of London means leaving by 6:30 at the latest to get into London. This is for a single man crew. Two man is £270 plus the extras.

[Dan james]

Sorry its been a couple of days, I’ve been in Brighton soaking up the sun working though so not all fun.

All your replies have been exactly what i was looking for some great advice cheers guys.
Ive basically got 2 and a half weeks and then i am a free man YESSSS.

I am based in Market Deeping but travel to London or Birmingham most days for work which is a killer.

quote Iain Pearson:

Dan, where are you based ?
I’m always on the look out for additional help around the uk

Thanks Iain as soon as I’m ready to go i will definately give you a call (found you on linked in) and would be happy to pop in and show you what I’ve done in the past, I’m just above Peterborough so not too far away.

Appreciate it everyone

Cheers Dan

[Iain Pearson]

No worries Dan, your always welcome to pop in.
Drop me a message on here or LinkedIn when your ready [emoji106]

[Chris Windebank]

Hi Iain George, need help in London sometimes if you are free?
Chris@ingeniousdisplays.co.uk

[Iain George]

quote Chris Windebank:

Hi Iain George, need help in London sometimes if you are free?
Chris@ingeniousdisplays.co.uk

Chris
I have left a message on your works answerphone as I am more often than not in the van driving around fitting signs. I will email you my prices and some photos of my work when I return home on Friday as I am currently working away from home.
I am popping into Sign and Digital tomorrow on my way home from Runcorn don’t know if you are up there.

[Chris Windebank]

Hi Iain, can’t make show this year but will call you when back from holiday