3rd party Bulk ink systems

[John Thomson]

Tell us the inside story Steve…………lots of people would be interested to hear……..are some better than others?

John

[Robert Lambie]

No disrespect meant, but i think elaborating with your own experiences and opinions on 3rd party inks would be the least you should do seeing as you have created the thread?

Also, As a supplier of sort, you will see this site as a marketing tool. i would suggest viewing the site rules.

[Steve thomas]

I have been in the industry for 14 years and have been converting mainly roland machines to a manufactuers 3rd party ink and bulk ink feed system. I must have converted about 2 dozen since august last year and converted back 2 to Roland origional inks.
The main issues are the customer is not getting the colours that they are accustome to and the smell to some people can be lets say irritating.

I have recently left a company ( Nameless ) that provided these for there customers and they have decided to pull out of the bulk ink market as they are causing to many headaches and there fore have no need for an engineer. 🙁

If you have the CORRECT Profiles and use the correct media that they have been made from on the same rip then I see no real issues. But the last 6 months has made me very suspicious of bulk ink feeds

[Robert Lambie]

what has media, colour matching, profiles, rip got to do with a bulk ink system?

If you buy a machine with its own rip and it is profiled for your media and out the blue you change ink type, then yes it can possibley make a mess up of various things. but that doesn’t mean the method of providing the machine with the ink. i.e. the carts being topped up by a bulk ink system or by just carts themselves, is going to be at fault for changes in the colour or how it preforms. that’s down to the ink.
"some" bulk ink systems are not perfect, i agree… but i think it is down to the ink not the system that feeds it.

e.g.
so what you are saying is that Roland Eco-max inks will be different in colour, print quality poorer if it is fed via a bulk ink system as opposed to carts?

[David Rowland]

Steve, one of the reasons I wont convert is the colour issues… I don’t really want to change anything that is working well. I could possible borrow a profiling tool to get my colours on but I need to possibly spend quite a bit of time on it.

[Bill McMurtry]

I use a bulk ink system and have had no problem with it. On the contrary, I think it makes for a more flexible ink system compared to using carts.

Dave, when it comes to profiling there are inexpensive profiling services available that provide excellent results without the expense of owning a profiling tool.

[Steve McAdie]

I have a bulk ink system on my cadet using activasol inks and correct profiles, only had compliments on colour and quality. I’m glad I chose the bulk ink system but I can understand people not wanting to go down that route.

Steve

[Robert Lambie]

quote Steve thomas:

Do they really go as well as you think hmmmmmmmmmmmm

would be interested in some replies to this thread that you started mate? 🙄

[David Rowland]

the only way i see the accuracy is to hire/own a tool bill.. to get hold of a shiraz compatible profile for avery vinyls to be printed using different ink is a tall order in my view, or if i find someone with the same setup.

[Robert Lambie]

Dave, I am saying this openly on UKSB so i will not elaborate on some things sorry, but… I have converted to a new ink supplier.

now i know all the issues this can cause… i am not ignoring them, but…
After allot of thought and discussion with a new supplier i took the plunge.

Now my take on a TRUE alternative to our current Ink is an ink i can simply flush existing ink, install the alternative, and using the SAME profile and SAME media, i can progress with printing getting the exact same quality or BETTER!

well… so far… that’s exactly what has happened!
the ink, the added benefits and costs in using the ink are all bonuses on using it. but until i am finished my tests so i cannot disclose my source just yet. 😕 😀

[Kevin Flowers]

Hi guys
I run third party inks & have no more problems than what i did than when i was running genuine inks, use the same profiles with out any major head aches. Will be looking to change to the latest version from my supplier which are said to be interchangeable with genuine inks with flushing.

Kev

[Karl Williams]

What printer do you use Kevin?

[David Rowland]

ive not rulled out bulk.. but with prices lowered on oem ink, it still not a massive change in profit unless the bulk ink suppliers have brought their prices down

[Karl Williams]

Anyone used Intek?

[Bill McMurtry]

Dave, speaking for myself, paying $25 US per litre for 3rd party ink represents considerable savings over OEM. Also, I think bulk tanks are so much more practical in terms of controlling printer ink levels, particularly on long runs.

I use a profiling service which is very accurate. Owning a profiling tool would be handy but I find it hard to justify the $1000+ cost as opposed to paying $20 per profile for an outsourced service. It’s not something I need to do very often.

[Kevin Flowers]

quote Karl Williams:

What printer do you use Kevin?

karl
i run a Soljet 545ex with versaworks rip

[David Rowland]

$25 a litre, now thats cheap! i must admit I wasn’t offered that over here by anyone… i think from memory we was looking at £70 a litre… let me think.. thats about $140 US

[Robert Lambie]

quote Steve thomas:

Do they really go as well as you think hmmmmmmmmmmmm

No further input on this thread you started Steve? 😕

[Steve thomas]

All I was really asking is do they give the output quality the same as using origional inks really wanting to get other peoples ideas and views.

I had had experience with them in general and just wanted to know what others thought.

from what i can gather in the field it is a mixed bag of feelings.

[Chris Wool]

my 2p worth, 3rd party inks i would imagine by the number of problems are probably 3rd rate, dont matter if bulk feed or cart.
yes i want cheaper inks but if you cant make money with the standard setup give up.

chris

[Bill McMurtry]

Chris, I don’t agree that 3rd party inks are 3rd rate. Perhaps that was the case some years ago, but I think things have changed. I certainly don’t think that I supply my clients with 3rd rate signs.

On various printing forums I seem to read as many having problems using OEM ink as with 3rd party. These problems often end up being unrelated to the ink, but accusations aimed at ink brand as the problem (even when it’s not) always seem to stick better to the non OEM brands 🙄

There seems a lot of coercion in the industry when it comes to ink usage. There’s obviously a heap of money at stake over ink consumables for the life of a printer. Not surprising then that the printer manufacturers go to considerable lengths to monopolize their continued ink brand usage. Given the choice, you probably wouldn’t buy a truck that was hardwired by the manufacturer to only allow their brand of over priced deisel in the tank :lol1:

[Jason Xuereb]

I think most people are more apprehensive towards 3rd party inks because of the support issues. If your mechanically inclined to fix your own machine, change heads etc then I don’t really see the issue.

Bill with your bulk ink system do you have to run it often? Or can you leave it for two weeks and use it as normal?

[Bill McMurtry]

Yes Jason, I can leave the bulk system for as long as I like (within reason) and it fires up as normal when needed. Two weeks would be no problem.

[Heng]

Jason,

With a Mimaki printer you can set the self cleaning interval.
I set mine to clean every 12 hours. If your machine has this function
there shouldn’t be any problem leaving it for two weeks.

If you are planning to change ink, get hold of a copy of the service manual
and read through first. You will find that you don’t need a technician or an engineer to do it for you. It is pretty straight forward.

[Mark Nihotte]

Bill

"On various printing forums I seem to read as many having problems using OEM ink as with 3rd party"

I agree with you – I have been using 3rd party inks in our Sp540 for nearly two years now (poor service from the local Roland agents together with good sales pitch from the opposition convinced me to change after my first years warranty ran out) and we haven’t had any issues that we didn’t have with Roland inks – in fact we are getting better results from the inks we currently use (perhaps we understand the process a little better these days). We have been using the same profiles and there is no perceptable change regardless of the ink used.

I have been watching your change over to Jetbest with interest….and sent off my first order to them today. I will be using refillable carts until I have sorted a continuous bulk system.

You are right about the quality of the ink these days and for those of you interested…it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see why we have changed:

Our minimum usage is two sets of 440 carts per month – ie say 48 cartridges a year….

Roland charge us $220 per cart = $10560pa

Most 3rd parties in NZ charge $168 = $8064pa

Jetbest charge US32 per litre which would be 21 litres pa = NZ$850pa

As you have mentioned in your threads – these machines aren’t too hard to work on (perhaps a little tight in the pump and damper area) …there are manuals available and each time you do it …it gets easier.

With savings like that above we can afford to change our heads as a matter of routine (cost is US450 approx from the likes of Jetbest and on Ebay) to ensure maximum print quality – not that we need to as these machines are pretty bullet proof

We will have our first order from Jetbest in the next week or so, so we will post again when we have wacked out a few repeat prints which we can compare with ones done in the last few months.

[Jason Xuereb]

Mark are you able to share the website or contact details of where you got your refillable carts for the sp540?

When we get our new printer I was thinking of changing over our sp540 to 3rd party inks.

Did you have to profile your new inks as well?

does anyone here own an Eye-one Proof and create their own ICC profiles. The process seems involved but straight forward from what I have been reading lately.

[Mark Nihotte]

[quote="Jason Xuereb"]Mark are you able to share the website or contact details of where you got your refillable carts for the sp540?

Jason – have a look at http://www.jetbest.com – they have the ink, the cartridges and spare parts for many printers…most of it at least 50% cheaper than we can get them here in NZ.

If you need a manual there are quite a few on Ebay at the moment for US20-30.

We had a mate produce a profile for us two years ago because we weren’t happy with the generic or vinyl manufacturers profiles – however life is a learning curve and in those days we only ripped EPS files (thats how we were shown), but these days we mostly rip PDF files (or JPEGs) as the colours are better and truer. We have a set of colour swatches for our main two vinyls (white is not white!!!) which are extremely accurate for matching. Within the Versaworks rip the default is the US std, but changing to Japan Max beefs up the reds and blues which can be very handy from time to time.

Other than that no profiling no matter what ink – more important to find a colour matching chart that really works (we use rolands own and it is very good) and check to see if there is any difference using it on different media.

[Jason Xuereb]

I’m presuming I need flushing cartridges to flush the system before changing over.

Is that the extent of the procedure for changing inks?

We currently go through 1-3 sets of 440ml cartridges a month at the moment. That would make a huge saving in our current setup.

[Mark Nihotte]

[quote="Jason Xuereb"]I’m presuming I need flushing cartridges to flush the system before changing over.

Yep – thats about it …Ihave been naughty in the past switching between ‘BLINK’ and ‘RED GIANT’ and not bothered flushing, just bunged the cartridge in..never had a problem.

But I will be flushing before changing to the Jetbest

[Chris Wool]

bill no suggestion you supply 3rate print, perhaps i was a bit harsh, i have my own horror stories over 3 rd party inks which i believe was due to the pigment not ground small enough.
things should have improved alot but its a big stumbling block in my mind,
one extra head change and all the advantage has gone.
i do all my own maintenance on my sc540ex and 2 heads in 5 years aint bad going.

chris

[David Rowland]

I am watching consumable prices carefully… i think this is something else that needs addressing.

Mimaki distributors are Hybrid, however you got to order parts from a reseller… so what happens when you dont buy ink from your reseller for a while, will they be interested in sending out a small item?

I know we got independent engineers now, but do they have deals with Hybrid?

[Bill McMurtry]

Chris, no problem, I do understand if you’ve had problems in the past. However, I still think that sourcing good quality 3rd party ink and finding better prices on your spare parts can add up to a lot of sign jobs over a 12 month period. If going from $500 per litre (OEM carts) to $25 per litre (bulk 3rd party) the cost savings from my point of view is equivalent to a new head every litre of 3rd party ink used 😀

Jason, a few months ago I spoke with an independent Mimaki tech who is quite happy to put $450 Asian sourced Epson heads in his clients machines. Of course, he was charging $900 + labor, but even that was still cheaper than the exact same head with a Mimaki brand sticker on it.

I had a laugh a couple of months ago when a guy I was talking to about Mimaki spare parts was telling me about how he didn’t trust Asian engineering. I asked him if he thought Mimaki was an English name :lol1:

[Stuart Flynn]

As a chemist at a 3rd party ink manufacturer I will add my two penneth to this thread.

Some people need to remember that it was a 3rd party ink manufacturer that had a chemist who created this whole part of the industry in the first place. Lets just say I know all about this particular product and how it came about.

OEM’s are apart of the bigger corporate entities in that they will always gain a headstart in confidence and sales attraction due to their name.
You often find that OEM’s purchase some of their inks from 3rd party companies anyway.
A 3rd party is less likely to be given as much time or support from the customer as much as an OEM would. OEM inks can still have problems, we all know that but it is how they react to a problem which defines the qualities of a company and what they offer.

You know that with an OEM, the ink you buy is generalised for everyone but with some 3rd party companies, they can alter the ink to your requirements. The flexibility is there and some offer the support too. If we have a problem at a customer, it is our utmost priority to get that customer back up and running asap.

The fact of price is another issue. The cheaper it gets, the less likely you will see better products or support. We all want cheap prices but ink manufacturers are under even more pressure in the present climate due to increased costs of raw materials due to the ‘oil’ crisis. We all suffer inflation but as an example some solvents we use have increased by 80% in the last 3 years. We don’t pass this on, we have to give price decreases which ultimately limits the amount of reason for producing such products.
There are games going on where the little guys are being squeezed out by the bigger companies who want to lower price and make the competition vanish. Once they control the market, you know what comes next and it certainly won’t be cheaper ink.
Some companies are using cheaper supplies, from cheap unreliable raw materials to even shipping in Chinese ink and relabelling.

I could cover all areas of this all day but I’d be here forever and this would become an essay.
If you are going to use a 3rd party ink, ensure you feel satisfied with it before you plump for it. Get a few different batches, run it a bit longer before you decide. Get all msds and technical info, be sure of it first and be aware that problems happen to everyone; but some of us try to prevent them from happening and will take it on the chin and deal with it compared to those that will walk away from you.

[Colin-T]

I think Steve should elaborate on his comments about the bulk ink systems, and also his experience of them, I am curious to know all of his findings. Unless he is bound by an agreement with his ex employer or the ink company he is trying to slag off that is……………just a thought. In my modest experience, engineers make the whole thing work together and not just the company that sells it, that is what we are there for, not just to bolt on new parts. But in 14 years, you must have become able to create profiles to do that,………..have you?

[Martin Williams]

I have a mimaki and run on a bulk system. I have tried 4 different 3rd party inks 1 from jetbest at $25 us a litre,1 from a uk supplier at £50 a litre both of which i thought were poor quality and scratched off very easily. I have also tried a uk supplier at £85 per litre that i had no problems with except the service. I am now using a uk supplier paying £70 per litre which runs on the same profiles as mimaki ink and is as good if not better as it is a little more aggressive. I use 3-5 litres of ink every 7-10 days so the saving for me against original mimaki inks are immense. I took an insurance policy out on my machine when i changed to bulk inks at £52 per month which covers the normal plus accidental & malicious damage and loss of earnings which also covers printheads but has a £500 policy excess. I had a breakdown recently and ended up with an insurance claim of just under £12,000 which was paid out straight away on. I seemed to get a faster service because i was paying for it and not covered under warranty. With the savings from the 3rd party ink and peace of mind from the insurance i would never swap back to mimaki inks and having now bought identical printheads that hybrid fitted at £215 each from taiwan i wouldn’t care if i had to change all 4 heads every 6 months.

[Bill McMurtry]

quote Martin:

I have tried 4 different 3rd party inks 1 from jetbest at $25 us a litre,1 from a uk supplier at £50 a litre both of which i thought were poor quality and scratched off very easily.

Martin, how long ago did you test Jetbest ink? Also, how long did you leave Jetbest ink to dry before you did the scratch test? I currently use Jetbest full solvent ink and am very happy with it, did you try the full solvent or eco?

[Martin Williams]

Hi Bill, I tried the full solvent had it in for about 10 days i tried a few different profiles colours were ok. I left the print in a heated room for 3 days before scratching it. I also printed a 68′ x 4′ sign and left it for around 2 weeks before attempting to mount it as it was a favour to a friend the 1st 8′ i came to mount scratched quite badly. The smell of the ink was very strong too only last week i threw a bit of print out from the ink and it still had its smell and scratched. I spoke to vivi just before she left and had this email back.

Thank you for the kind ink testing condition.
I have asked your inquiry with our RD leader that if you are particularly focuses on the function of scratch resistance.

We may suggest you to try our Eco Top ink as USD32/per Liter or the newest one called Eco sky as USD35/per Liter

Because, customers have different ink preference, normally for JV3 machine we provide SP+ ink solution what you ordered as same as Bill. But so far, all the feedbacks are positive.

Therefore, if you don’t like to quality, I may suggest you to try different one for seeking your favorite ink performance, please let me know if you need any supports, thanks a lot!

I did speak to you at the time to see what temperatures you ran at. I don’t know if it was the difference in climates but it was worth trying it at the price.

[Mark Nihotte]

quote Martin Williams:

I don’t know if it was the difference in climates but it was worth trying it at the price.

Hi Martin and Bill

I changed over to Jetbest for that very reason – it irks me that I can print at $20 a 440ml cartridge when prices vary here between $167 and $220 per 440ml Cart.. I took the opportunity to change the c/k head, pump and put 4 new LARGE dampers – all costing $680 – done here at local prices would have been more like $2000.

We did some testing on Sunday, tweaked a couple of profiles and this week have wacked out about 15 metres. No problem with vectorised files but have found that the magenta is slighty red and on raster work we have had to max down the magenta adjustment to get close to how the files out putted under the old ink. Scratch test is inconclusive as it is winter here and has been cold and damp all week. I may have to get a new profile to address this properly…but and $32 per litre, I’d be mad not to give it a go.

I have had to put the heater and dryer temperatures up to 46 deg each which is up 10 on what we needed for the Red Giant inks.

[Colin-T]

Hi Martin, you have certainly done your maths here!
The ink you describe that you use now sounds familiar to me, it is made by the biggest ink manufacturer in the world, but made here in the UK. It can be used side by side with the original, no profile or colour issues and probably keeps the heads clearer to boot.

[Shane Drew]

I’ve been following this thread with interest.

As most know, I’ve been a Techink user for many years. I had my Roland 540 converted when it was still in warranty, much to Rolands discust.

The Techink distributors were so confident with their product, they took over the warranty of the machine when Roland told me to take a hike.

Interestingly, before I changed over to the bulk ink, my machine was diagnosed with a faulty black head. Roland refused to change the head when they found out I’d changed over to a non Roland product, so Techink changed it for me.

I’ve had 3 new heads and 2 pumps in 5 years. From my research, I think that is pretty good. I’ve spoken to a few Roland users who go thru a head every 9 months on average, using Roland inks. I’ve spoken to other 3rd party ink users that have gone through a complete of set heads every year.

I’ve also changed to CMYKOG rather than CMYLLcLm and my techink supplier, Australian Graphic Supplies, have offered me excellent support in this regard.

I use the original profiles for media, with no issues. AGS have been out to re profile my unit when I went to Orange and Green though.

The comment before, that basically says, you get what you paid for is an important statement. From my research, Techink has one of the finest pigment filters available in the ink market. I’m told it is a finer pigment than in the Roland inks.

I’ve discussed the Jetbest product prices with the Jetbest agent here, and they tell me very sincerely that the prices being offered to the market, are not the same as he buys them for. The conclusion they have come to is that the inks being offered are not the same quality as the inks they buy and resell. Price is an issue with all of us, and thats the main reason we all consider change

Some argue that the inks are cheap enough you can afford a head more often, and I guess that’s true.

I pay a damn site more than $au30 per litre. But, one phone call to the technical support people, and they are very good with the support. And the confidence I have in the product.

But I can’t help but wonder why the inks are so cheap. Why would they charge $30 a ltre, when others charge $150 or $300. Perhaps they are looking at moving sheer qty, to keep the manufacturing costs down. I’m not sure what the reason is.

I am prepared to accept that inks are over priced, but I think you can buy too cheap too..

Just my thought, and I mean no disrespect to those who use a cheaper ink, but I equate it to tyres.

You can buy a Michelin Tyre or you can buy a Chinese clone. Both do the daily jobs well, but one will perform better than the other under more situations and circumstances.

I think inks are the same. Inks are of course a lubricant too, so that is worth remembering too.

Just my comments anyway. I’d be interested how these machines using the cheaper ink fare in 5 years, with print heads and pumps.

I’ll be converting my new machine to techink aswell. It is a brilliant product.

Cheers
Shane

[Jason Xuereb]

Shane,

What changes did you have to made to go from eco solvent to full solvent tech inks?

Cheers
Jason

[Shane Drew]

quote Jason Xuereb:

Shane,

What changes did you have to made to go from eco solvent to full solvent tech inks?

Cheers
Jason

We changed the 3 pumps to mimaki pumps in my first machine, as a precaution, because they’d never done a Roland before, but now I think they just change the piping within the pump, to a solvent resistant one.

I’m not totally sure in truth, but I’ll know in a week or so when my machine gets here and they do it for me.

AGS are doing the Techink conversion FOC at the moment to compete with Celmac/Triangle Inks doing the same thing. All you have to do is buy the inks. Pretty good deal really.

[John Wilson]

I had the guys from Triangle come out to see me this week, still waiting for them to email me prices for the bulk ink system as I’m thinking of switching over to see how it goes