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What is a reasonable lifespan?
How long does our responsibility for the life of a sign last?
Three years ago I fitted a new set of panels into an existing sign frame and recent storms blew (or more correctly sucked) the panels out.
The company initially asked me to replace the panels and add a plywood backing to the frame to ensure the panels stayed in place. I patiently explained that my understanding of this type of failure is that when a high wind passes over the face of the sign, this causes an area of low pressure which then causes the panel to be sucked out of the frame (this is the same principle as that which causes "lift" on an aircraft wing). Consequently, the fitting of a plywood backing behind the frame may not prevent a recurrence.
I suggested a better alternative to prevent a possible recurrence would be to remove the frame altogether and attach aluminium composite panels directly to the building and quoted them a price to do so.
Their response was to more or less accuse me of "designing" a sign system that was not fit for purpose and why should they pay me to remove old frame and fit new composite panels.
I pointed out that the frame was historical – I merely saved them money at the time by utilising an existing system when fitting new panels. The fact that this has proven to be problematic is not my doing.
They have had three years use of a sign – recent storms have caused this damage and I think it is unrealistic to expect that I am still responsible for the condition of the sign.
Unfortunately there was a recent case where a 10 year old sign came down causing severe injury. The sign company involved were held jointly responsible and received a hefty fine. The BSGA held this case up as an example where the industry is failing and there was a need for higher standards.
Who’s right? And how far is it reasonable to go to ensure signage remains in tip top condition some years after fitting?
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14 Replies
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You cannot be responsible for severe weather. If it can blow down trees that have been up for 300 years what chance has a plastic sign got.
It blows down buildings and takes off roofs.
An insurance company would say they are not covered for act of God situations.
So why should you warranty it.
Your work was suitable for normal conditions not extreme weather. -
Blimey Phill you wonder what some folks expect. In this case I’d be a bit miffed by the customers attitude (and inference). The fact that they have had no problem for 3 years would indicate that the job was done with due care and only the recent extreme weather has proved too much.
Obviously we all work to the best standard that budget, site and materials allow, but being held responsible for carried out 10 or even 3 years ago unless specific guarantees were made?
How far down that route we, as an industry, are prepared to go is an interesting point. If vinyl lettering fails after 6 1/2 years and the customer complains are we obliged to replace because it’s less than the 7 year lifespan? -
Hi Phill
It is my understanding that if you do not state the expected life of a sign on a quote or invoice then it is automatically regarded as 10 years and as a sign company you will be responsible for the expected life. It is very hard when a customer wants a sign done cheap as they all do, if you was to allow for maintenance for the life of the sign I doubt you would get the job. All client or ours anyway expect there signs to last forever lol. BSGA recommend yearly inspections of signs I had to quote and report why a 14m long sign tray had failed at a large chain of shops a customer had just walked through the door when the sign tray had failed at the top flipping down crashing against the shop front the store manager told me the sign was installed about 5 years ago and didn’t know the sign company that installed the sign on inspection the plywood behind was rotten. They was very lucky that no one was injured or killed the yearly inspections BSGA are recommending could have prevented the sign failing by preventative maintenance.
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quote Lee Reeves:Hi PhillIt is my understanding that if you do not state the expected life of a sign on a quote or invoice then it is automatically regarded as 10 years and as a sign company you will be responsible for the expected life.
Surely this is only the case if you are running a specific quality system within your company?
There is no legal requirement to have any quality systems in place, so this wouldn’t apply to those businesses that choose not to be encumbered with such systems.
That is my understanding – or am I wrong?
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Surely it would have to be rolled out across ALL aspects of manufactured & installed goods.
A fence that you had put up 9 years blows over in a gale…I’m pretty sure nobody is going to go chasing them.
A tree that was planted 70 years ago falls over, after all – is that not less than the expected lifespan?…who’s to blame?
A tube light in a sign on the side of a building fails after a year even though the manufacturer stated it would last 5 years…who’s responsible for the hire of a cherry picker.
At this rate you’ll have to put a clause into all your invoices that state that you recommend hourly inspections and if they can’t provide evidence of such any implied warranty is void.
Dave
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This would all come down to trading standards in the end.
What they would class as "Fit for purpose" for a resonable time.
They would look at the situation and the cost etc and they would give an opinion based on what other companies would charge.
I am sure they would consider reasonable life around five years but thats only for the material. They would not support extreme weather conditions being the signmakers fault. -
In all honesty, I never give a guarantee with the work – other than I guess ‘statutory rights’ – which I don’t know. I have always looked at the job and if it’s a case of materials failing before I think they should, or my workmanship that caused failure (unlikely to be honest) then I will replace with no quibbles.
I had an aluminium hanging panel drop from 12ft just before Christmas in the storms, at 4:30 in the afternoon it was lucky it never hit anyone, thankfully the weather was attrocious and nobody was about on the high street. The chain I used from Wicks snapped and the swinging motion managed to undo the second ubolt / shackle, Sadly I’ve lost th receipt so can’t go back to Wicks and go a bit mental but it’s down to me and will be replaced.
The above notes about a ten year guarantee being implied if none is specified has concerned me, terms will now contain a 6 month guarantee for failure of materials & / or workmanship, after that unless yearly sdafety checks are carried out then they can bugger off!
Hugh
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quote Hugh Potter:I had an aluminium hanging panel drop from 12ft just before Christmas in the storms, at 4:30 in the afternoon it was lucky it never hit anyone, thankfully the weather was attrocious and nobody was about on the high street.
Hugh
that was very lucky indeed it did not hit anyone as im sure they would of been a claim coming your way what with all the claims companies.
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We warrant everything for 3months, but aren’t rigid in that. But comes in handy in situations like this.
The BS559 we specify 12month service life extendable by annual service/inspection.
Responsibility is on the customer then 99% don’t bother, we’re in covered.
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If any of you are interested, at UK Sign & Digital Exhibition 2014, the BSGA are presenting 2 workshops every day of the duration of the show to which you are all more than welcome. I will be posting a more formal invitation to UK Signboard members closer to the show so that this reaches as many as possible. Details are currently available on the Sign UK website:
http://www.signuk.com/Content/2014-Seminar-Programme/4_173
under the Business Theatre so this is more of a heads up for you ahead of everyone else.Workshops bullet points
WORKSHOP 1
Introduction to new standards for sign design & construction• European standards (Eurocodes) explained
• Calculating wind loads compliant with Eurocodes
• Calculating sign post sizes compliant with Eurocodes
• Calculating foundations compliant with Eurocodes
• How Eurocodes relate to BS559 (UK Spec for design of signs)
• What sign manufacturers need to know
• What sign buyers need to know
• Changes to Building RegulationsWORKSHOP 2
Sign maintenance & planning regulations• Summary of planning changes proposed by councils in last 12 months
• Actions taken by BSGA to protect UK sign industry in last 12 months
• Sign maintenance requirements specified by planning regulations
• New sign maintenance addendum to BS559
• CE marking; when and where required
• Which standards are codes of practice
• Which standards are a legal requirement
• Failure to maintain sign case study.
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quote shane binding:quote Hugh Potter:I had an aluminium hanging panel drop from 12ft just before Christmas in the storms, at 4:30 in the afternoon it was lucky it never hit anyone, thankfully the weather was attrocious and nobody was about on the high street.
Hugh
that was very lucky indeed it did not hit anyone as im sure they would of been a claim coming your way what with all the claims companies.
I’m not sure how the claim would work against me though. Firstly I employed a local tradesman with their own insurance to do the install. secondly, the chain I supplied should have been more than adequate to hold up a piece of aluminiun, ultimately the chain failed in extreme weather so I don’t really know if I would have been liable personally, as a business, the trademan who installed or Wicks who supplied what I consider to be – in hindsight, sub-standard chain!
I’m going to try and get to the sign show this year so I’ll make use of the workshops I think!
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Hugh
unfortunately it would be you1. chains that lift, suspend things have to be rated, that is not just the weight of the sign but wind storms etc same as shackles and lifting eyes
2. although you had an insured tradesmen fit it he did not manufacture the sign or specify the chain and that goes the same for Wickes unless they warrant the chain to be capable of suspending a specified weight. Normally Wickes/B&Q have a disclaimer located on the isle with all of this type of goods
3. act of god is fast loosing its get of jail use, look at the recent floods they are an act of god but insurance companies are having to pay out millions for something that most people would say is an act of god. So the more winds and storms we have nowadays the more we should be taking this in to consideration. Act of god regarding storms etc use to be when we had not had a storm of that magnitude for 50 years or so not last year or the year before.
4. is that its the one at the top of the ladder that is held responsible although has with the case above they will also lay some fault at the people on the way up.
Just to make it clear i’m not saying anything against you Hugh just the way the system works
Kev
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Thanks Kev,
Guess I need to revise how best to fit the sign, maybe hinges!
Hugh -
One way is to have a length of chain attached to the bottom of the panel at one end & the wall at the other Hugh.
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