what are the ink differences in the cadet & versacamm?

[Chris Wool]

quote :

I say all of this since I have been thinking about converting my machine back to a Versacamm,

WHY.

chris

[Arthur Rayner]

Simply because of the cleaning processes, banding and the fact that ecosol max seem the better more durable inks?

[Chris Wool]

over the last 4 years i have used all 3 of the roland eco ink sets the max set is what all the others should have been. and now very pleased with the results.

you may still get some banding but not at the higher quality end and reading the stories of the cadet etc. antics of sucking tubes out etc. makes me pleased i stuck to my guns and didnt go full solvent.

i heard that at least one person has just changed carts back to the max inks and carried on but that worries me i would have thought a flush first.

max inks are not maintenance free you must clean at least once every 2 weeks.

chris

[Arthur Rayner]

Hi Chris, was that a person using a cadet or a versacamm? Trouble was 2 years ago, I and many others so it appears had a demo with Roland, realise that their inks rapidly went walkabouts…then had a demo with B&P, bought a machine from them. Meanwhile Roland have developed their Ecosol Max inks. What exactly is the cleaning process with the versacamm using ecosol max inks, is it fairly simple in comparision with the cadet? The stench of the B&P ink was/is horrendous and must be toxic?! Any help will be much appreciated.

[Chris Wool]

i think the cleaning is the same but i pay special attention to the wipers as they do the actual cleaning the blue b&p ones are a lot better than rolands.
basicly just dont allow the crud to build up and it will reward you.

the other machine was a cadet to max inks

chris

[Martin Oxenham]

Check out my info on this subject to pu you straight. . http://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.p … highlight=

[Ian Higgins]

Hi Folks,

I must be the odd one out here…. I have the Cadet + and it gets quite a bit of hammer, It usually gets Sundays Off!!.

Due to time and being a lazy so and so I only do the maintainance clean abot once every 6 weeks and Touch wood to date have never had a problem.
The smell can be a little strong when doing long runs but we just open the door. I think it is a fantastic machine for the money and as I said mine has been trouble free.. To be honest I am amazed at the quality of the prints considering it is covered in dust and fag ash!!!

Cheers
Ian

[Rodney Gold]

I have been using my soljet SC 540 EX for well in excess of 3 yrs , I have used all the inks , including the Sol ink that required coated media. Despite all the discussion in regard to solvent resistance of a print (which quite frankly is a load of baloney as any person that uses solvent on any print from any machine or process is guilty of abuse – would you wipe a photo with thinners?) not ONE of my prints , lammed or unlammed has failed!!! I have never had a single complaint from any customer for any reason whatsoever for any print I have supplied , retial or trade. I print on varied media, paper , vinyl , banner , canvas , polysilk , polyester , abs , styrene and my prints are on vehicles , outdoor signage , indoors , fine art , on machinery , used for doming and so forth and they are all still out there , bright and vibrant.
Now lets get down to the nitty gritty here , despite all debate – I have not seen a rash of posts on this board actually complaining of failures or detailing then , no matter what machines and inks folk are using. At the end of it all , choose your inks on price, profile and suitability for the machine parts rather than on it’s theoretical failure potential – cos those theoretical failures don’t seem to happen in real world condtions.

[Peter Shaw]

Damn right, Rodney.

I’d also add that the only damaged prints I’ve seen are where overhanging trees etc have scraped against the sides of vans.

The inks are going to have to be really clever to stop this!!

Durability wise, it seems to me that the Cadet inks set a "standard" as they were so much better than Roland’s Versacamm inks. The new max inks are clearly a great improvement but to pay 2 or 3 grand to convert a machine for these, because they smell nicer, is a no-brainer. If Roland have really quoted this much, it must be their polite way of saying f**k Off!!!

Peter

[solvent]

gonna try and put a few things to bed here..

Q. what parts are changed in the versacamm so it becomes a cadet?.

A. in my experience its not much. the pump pipe will be changed to a clear one however this is not for reasons as described, i.e. higher resistancy to solvents, it is because they are re-piping second hand pumps because it is cheaper than buying new ones from roland or epson etc. the wiper blades may be changed to a pair of polypropolene ones as they dont absorb the ink so much. rolands wiper blades have stayed the same since day one whichever ink type you use. but stay tuned as i expect things will soon be changing there. oh and its BS that they change the ink lines or the dampers, if they could the only other dampers suitable would be ones similar to the jv3, however there is absolutely no chance of this as they are a wider fitting on the jv3 and although they are the same head the manifolds are differant and incompatable.

the firmware should be the same as there is no way that bandp can write there own. latest version is 6.2 and this has a fix for the machines that could not wake from sleep to do the 24 hour inactivity clean. this is not an every day maintanance, it is as i said a 24 hour inactivity solution. ie 24 hours after the last job if the printer has done nothing it will wake and do a small cleaning cycle the equivelant amount of ink as a postage stamp size print. (something like 0.0032cc of ink).

the price for putting the machine back does sound steep but have you considered what will be replaced?
the print heads alone are about £600.00 each. the foremention pump may need replacing as well as the dampers and capping unit sponges.
an engineer would be £175.00 call out and be on site for about 2 hours.

sounds a lot i know but when you break it down…

should be some fun soon aswell as epson are clamping down on 3rd parties buying their heads from stockists to use in non epson machines. so when you try to buy an epson head for your roland,mimaki or mutoh based machine you will have to supply the serial number for the epson machine you are using it in. all i can say is i hope Bandp have sold a lot of epsons in their time and have kept hold of the serial numbers.

[Barry]

Just a small correction here. The Mimaki JV3 dampers will fit on a Versacamm, Ive been running them for the last 8-9 months without any issues.

[Peter Shaw]

My conversation on the Roland stand indicated that the conversion to Cadet etc involves replacing pipes, pump etc for the more agressive ink which would damage them.

The conversion back does not require any replacements as the ink will be less agressive.

I was told the standard Maxsol ink replacement procedure built into the firmware will suffice.

Peter

[Arthur Rayner]

Did Roland themselves say that using their Maxsol inks would not require any conversion, because when I spoke with them they maintained a cost of up to £3K..which seems extortionate, however, I know the head prices etc. It would be fascinating just to replace inks directly though!

[Peter Shaw]

Yup, the info came from Roland badged personnel!!

I wonder if they’ll put in writing??!!

Peter

[Arthur Rayner]

Daft question Peter…I don’t suppose you recall the name of the chap!!??

All of this just drives me mad to be honest.

Arthur

[Martin Oxenham]

Check out my posting Under "Versacam or Orangejet" in this forum
regarding inks.

[Kevin Hills – B&P]

The post above by Solvent is an example of how forums can be abused, much like writing graffiti on a toilet wall.

We actively support uksignboards, and are happy to see users expressing their views, positive or negative, but when 3rd parties pop-up and post statements that are at best factually incorrect, and at worst mischievous, we get a little irate.

In general it would appear that Solvent has some knowledge of conversions, but the claims he makes would be more accurate as regards earlier conversions such as the Resolve X21 solvent machines that preceded the launch of Uniform products. Some of his claims directly aimed at Uniform are simply incorrect.

Taking each in turn:

Pumps: Solvent claims we change the pump tubing because we are using second-hand pumps. Complete nonsense. We buy in pumps that are modified to allow for lubrication by the end-user, this increases reliability and reduces the likelihood of pumps drying out and locking up. The pipes are changed to stop ink weeping out as we found this happened within a matter of weeks with the standard pump tubing.

Dampers: much of the info posted by Solvent is incorrect. We could use JV3 dampers, but don’t, we actually use a modified damper that is longer with greater ink capacity, this increases ink flow and reduces the likelihood of ink starvation when the printer is used in high speed modes.

Wipers: The standard Roland damper is dual sided, with a felt on one side, whilst the felt is soft and serves well in wiping the heads, the felt will quickly shrink when exposed to an active solvent ink, this curls the wiper making it less effective – in short it stops doing it’s job properly. Our wipers are manufactured specifically for us, using a soft solvent resistant compound that both wipes well and resists curling as well as the other effects of exposure to active solvents such as becoming brittle or breaking up.

Other parts: We change numerous items including ink plates, heater elements and more. All aimed at increasing performance and/or reliability.

Ongoing developments: Uniform continue to research and develop new solutions based on issues reported by end-users, for example we are currently testing diaphragm based pumps as used in grand format systems, if results are positive, these will become standard fitment.

Finally, there would be no need whatsoever to reverse engineer a Uniform printer to run Roland or any other inks. The parts we change are in effect an upgrade. They should therefore perform better irrespective of ink used.

Indeed as announced at SignUK last week, we are sufficiently confident in the changes we make, to warranty the printers irrespective of inks used. We can now ship printers with Bulk Ink as standard, and do not use chipped cartridges, hardware locks, or warranty invalidation threats, to tie users into our inks – if you use Uniform ink it is through choice. Equally use of Roland ink in a Uniform printer will not invalidate your warranty.

We are trying to be fair, and putting choices in the users hands. We are not perfect, and don’t claim to be, but we do listen, we do make ongoing developments on the back of customer feedback, and most importantly, we do build professional systems. With over 1000 printers in the field now, Uniform systems are certainly not the back-street conversion that Solvent is suggesting.

[Dave Standen]

Hi Kevin
A very informed. well rounded reply.
What seem to be facts – well explained if folks have some knowledge & can recognise the parts described. It’s refreshing to see a supplier issue technical facts instead of sales speak. Thanks for that!

Very upfront of you say that Uniform Warranty is still applicable for any ink in the market and in particular for ecoSolvent inks

Uniform is to be applauded for such a client friendly public announcement!

Regards
Dave Standen

[David Rowland]

Dave I thought the same thing, as suppliers come on places like these boards and offer their knowledge to the rest of us, more faith then is placed within your products as you have a direct customer link, most of us print users want to protect our invest and certainly want information that is deep and technical response.

Thanks, cleared the air with some of my thoughts too.

[Robert Lambie]

please note: on finding this post just a short time ago, i have had a look at solvents profile. it has virtually "no profile" not even a genuine name. this being the case i have closed the account.
should you be reading this "solvent" and wish to have the account reactivated. contact me with FULL genuine details and an explanation why they have been removed please. admin@uksignboards.com

[Kevin Hills – B&P]

I can hear you licking your lips from here Mr Standen :lol1:

It must be music to your ears as a supplier of third-party ink, that we have effectively open the doors for people to try an win ink business from Uniform users.

However, the onus is now firmly on us to ensure there are compelling reasons for users to continue with Uniform inks in their systems. We have to remain competitive as regards price, particularly against bulk ink vendors. We have to offer a broader range of ICC profiles on a broader range of media, and we have to continue the development of our ink formulations to ensure best possible performance.

Hopefully our introduction of Open Bulk Ink, at a time when many machine manufacturers are actively adding chips to protect their residual ink business, shows that we are a business that can and will respond to customer demand.

Whilst we have ‘formally’ opened up our machines to any ink, and will warranty them, it still remains a case of ‘let the buyer beware’ – we certainly wouldn’t replace the heads on a machine under warranty if someone had taken it upon themselves to use an incompatible ink that is directly responsible for the head failure. There has to be a degree of common sense applied, or else we’d be replacing heads on machines where users were trying to pump coloured gravel through the heads!

Again, I stress, you can use a COMPATIBLE ink in a Uniform printer without invalidating warranty. By compatible we mean an ink that is proven to work, without adverse effects, in the relevant printhead.

A final word of caution; when you are considering a 3rd party ink, bear in mind that many vendors are now bringing in very cheap Chinese inks, these often contain coarsely ground pigment that will cause head blockages, and often use harsh chemicals that are in contravention of EU laws. If in doubt, talk to one of our engineers before using another ink. You’ll find we will answer your queries honestly.

Also when you talk to potential ink suppliers, ensure you get references from a handful of happy users, and take the time out to actually talk to these users rather than simply believing the sales hype. And finally, read those MSDS sheets!

[Kevin Hills – B&P]

Just re-read the above, and thought I should add that we have had no reports from our users, good or bad, on Dave Standens inks or foils.

The post above is general advice on ink use/buying, and certainly wasn’t a dig at any individual or company.

Just thought I ought to make that clear.

[Peter Shaw]

Cor!

This is exciting!!

An outbreak of honesty!!!

"Well done" to all of us!!!!

[Dave Standen]

Hi Kevin
I AGREE ABSOLUTELY 100%
Indeed I would go further and say that clients should expect that any ink supplier should guarantee the ink system of any machine they supply to! I also agree that users should be given sensible choices of inks.
Sensible should be qualified I suppose, but I think the folks out there will know what I mean.

Sometimes a companies reputation will suffice – if they have a reputation in the 1st place. Your company has such a reputation I’m sure you would rightly claim. I don’t disagree!
😳
I must be careful – this exchange is getting to nice! People begin talking!
Regards Dave Standen

[Kevin Hills – B&P]

Mr Shaw (Peter?)

I can tell you this much, we do read what you guys post on here, and if opinion is strong on any topic, we take your comments on board.

So you have every right to claim the availability of open bulk ink on Uniform printers as an example of successful uksignboards lobbying.

Now perhaps if you all start pressuring us to supply free printers, with a lifetime supply of free ink, free media, and an indefinite warranty, you never know 😉

[Arthur Rayner]

Hi Dave

Am I missing something…are you an ink supplier? If so, can you give me some info please.

[Dave Standen]

Hi Merlin
errr….
I’m a supplier. I advertise in Sign UpDate. I’m not a sponsor of the boards at the moment. I have been very active some 2 years ago. I’m just viviting again to see how everyone is – and haven’t things changed!
For the good I miay add – The boards has grown and evolved! I’ve advertised UK SignBoards for years in all my advertising & documents – but not everyone sees this! I was a sponsor some time ago, but ‘fell off’ the wagon in re-organisations etc.

I will be sent to stand facing a corner in a dark room by the ‘Hand of Rob’ if I advertise, so …. send Rob a PM – he will decide if I’m approved for contact. I’ve inadvertantly broken the board rules in the past! I’m a good boy now! I haven’t stood in the corner for ages!

Regards Dave Standen

[Robert Lambie]

When a new printer is launched claiming this and that with regards to durability. Amongst others, we normally purchase with that claim in mind.

When prints badly fail within several months “under real world condition” and the excuse given is that the advertising claims were made “under accelerated laboratory conditions” you have to feel a bit cheated, as “I” was… the question is, what the hell can you do about it..? Probably nothing, a lesson learnt!
I was also told in my phone conversation that prints on a vehicle drove in the country will last longer than prints driven in the city. This was because the prints in the city are subjected to far harsher conditions. i.e. car fumes grime & dirt from the roads, car wash chemicals, washed much more often, petrol spillage at the petrol cap etc etc…

With all this in mind… I thought ide come up with my own accelerated laboratory conditions, (cough cough… ahem) ok joking aside…

All I wanted to do was test one ink with a strong chemical against another ink with same. See which stood up best. The chemical in question wasn’t used for any other reason than it was strong and I had plenty lying around. We all know the rest and I am not posting this to rekindle the topic. The obvious argument is that all printed vehicle graphics should be laminated. But NOT all are. Take vehicle wrapped taxi’s and ads on buses… (Massive cut throat market) short life, 6-12 months, so the need for durability for unlamented prints does become relevant under real world conditions.
As I said, the test was purely to test one ink against another using a strong chemical. The result was not close, but a massive difference in my own honest opinion.

Put aside the chemical attack, or even the chemical used. What about the one finger rub test? Again, this showed a much better resistance with one ink to another. How many times does a taxi door or door handle areas get subjected to this type of abrasion?
Since this so called ridiculous test was done, we have seen new “improved” inks being launched to combat this very problem. Could this be suppliers actually listening to what’s being said, or just doing it off their own back? I think the first… & I applaud them for doing so.

Here is another of my “own” personal views… maybe bol**x but wrong or right, I do have an opinion like the rest of you.
http://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=16563

For the record…
I purchased my solvent machine just over two years ago now, it runs on a regular basis.
To date, I have had “one” call for a minor, few minutes fix. And I was up running again.
We have never done a full flush, but we do keep the machine in a good clean environment. We do a light 5 minute clean each Friday night… that’s it! We are now considering moving to a bigger 1.5m wide model and feel confident in doing so.

Something I would like to ask anyone, sign maker or supplier. I have heard on more than one occasion now that non-strong smelling inks are equally as toxic as the strong smelling inks? If this is the case, is this not a bit like having a gas without the added odour?
I only ask this because I have been told this by several, “unconnected” people. So thought it maybe a good time to raise the question?

[Martin Oxenham]

Just a small point here Kevin, When We had trouble back last year of which you are familiar as you visited on several occasions, we were told that uniform would NOT warranty the machine with Roland inks and we would have to use Citrosol if we changed. Which we did.

[Phill Fenton]

That’s not really a small point Martin – it’s a fairly major point which is completely at odds with what Kevin said earlier 😉

[Martin Oxenham]

Yes I suppose it is quite major but it IS true. Also Roland would’nt warranty it unless it went to there workshops and they changed everything that had come into contact with Activasol inks and this would cost upward of £3000.

[Alan Drury]

Having read Rob’s post and from other comments in previous threads regarding overlamination of vehicle graphics and anything that will come accross any kind of abrasion or solvent of any kind (polish?) I find myself wondering, what is the point of full solvent over eco solvent anyway. The majority of us are general signmaker producing stuff from vehicle graphics to builders boards to fascias virtually all of these items would need lamination so no advantage for solvent there, I do see regular threads here regarding extra maintenance though. I appreciate that ALL machines need maintenance but unless the solvent ones are used very regularly, the eco solvent ones seem to require less and especially if not used frequently (I’m thinking new user building new business with new kit)
Just my 2 bobs worth.
Alan D

[Kevin Hills – B&P]

Martin, our open ink policy was launched at SignUK just the other day, we will now warrant Uniform printers with ANY compatible ink, given the caveats posted above. When you spoke to us a while back that wasn’t the case.

There it is. In writing. Please believe me 😀

Now to try and clarify some other bits for you all… Given that the whole Eco vs Active topic has, for some at least, taken on the semblance of the war that rages beween Mac & PC users (and never the twain shall meet), I thought I’d make a contribution with what I beleive to be facts.

Before I do so, I’d like to stress that we have always tried to stay out of this particular topic and leave you guys to come to your own conclusions, but there are myths, some of them quite alarming, that need to be set straight.

Topic 1: The claim that ‘Eco-solvents don’t need the fumes extracting, they don’t smell, they are safe’. Tell it to a coal-miner – didn’t they take canaries into coalpits to avoid being poisoned by odourless gas?

If that sounds dramatic, apologies it isn’t meant to, but don’t think because a solvent based ink doesn’t smell that it is therefore safe.

Eco-solvents are subject to identical health and safety legislation as full solvent inks. Whilst the marketing claims (ours and theirs) make some bold statements, the HSE makes no distinction between the two.

In summary on that topic, I would say this, a properly vented active solvent is probably safer than an unvented eco-solvent.

Just add an air extractor and ensure you are refreshing the air supply in your printroon, that is the sensible thing to do irrespective of ink type.

Topic 2: Maintenance. Uniform printers that are in regular use require less preventative maintenance than those that are used only occasionally. This maintenance routine equates to perhaps 10 minutes per day. They are not always breaking down, they are not the liability that some would like you to believe. There are a huge number of users running without issue, and making good money, in fact you might have seen a pattern of users from these very forums who buy a Uniform printer and then post with less regularity. I assume it is because they are pre-occupied with learning the skills associated with professional colour printing, and are hopefully also busy making money and developing their business.

Naturally there are a number of users who use this forum as a method of seeking assistance or airing grievances, again this is natural and if borne out of frustration at not getting an engineer out immediately when required, we apolgise, we do what we can within the confines of very a busy installation/training/maintenance schedule. We are still confident, given the number of users out there, that our machines are as reliable, when maintained properly as per the training that should have been provided, as any other printer on the market.

I would agree that if you are going to print perhaps a metre of print once every few days, and you don’t want to invest 10 minutes a day on maintainance, then an Eco-solvent printer might prove to be a better bet for you.

Uniform printers are a production tool, designed from the outset to deal with and address real world production issues. The machine is at it’s best when it is printing regularly. This is true of any printer that jets an ink that is intended to dry quickly and bond to an uncoated substrate, because, given the opportunity, it will just as readily bond to the nozzle plate of the printhead.

Thirdly, ink durability, I’m not going to get heavily into this, because everyone has their own views, and as mentioned, there is a degree of ego involved in talking up the printer you have invested your hard earned cash into. That is also understandable, you have put your money where your mouth is, and have every right to justify the why’s and wherefore’s of that decision. And we would readily admit, Eco-solvent inks have improved, but don’t think for a minute that there is a magic formula – as the inks improve, they equally become less Eco. Read previous statement re. Health & Safety and ventilation.

Uniform inks have proven to be robust and durable, this aids in handling, packaging, finishing applying and more. It’s not just about how long it lasts on a vehicle, laminated or otherwise. However we also agree that manufacturer supplied inks are improving all the time. How could they not. It’s natural development dictated to some degree by the success of Uniform and other third-party after market inks, as well as by customer demand.

That is all I am going to say on the matter. Frankly we prefer to stay out of your way and let you guys discuss things based on your own findings.

Finally, a sob story from our Engineering Dept… Please bear in mind, bad news tends to be publicised more often than good news. I’ve seen a number of people complain on here, (sometimes before we’ve even had a phone-call reporting the problem!) and I know some of you have then had exemplary service, sometimes when it wasn’t even our responsibility to do so, and we rarely get thanks when that happens. Not a grumble, a fact. We accept it. Ask the Tech Support department at any supplier of any type of equipment, it is thankless soul destroying work, because the phone calls, by their very nature, are always negative.

Right I’ll be off before an angry Eco-solvent user puts a bounty on my head.

Good luck and happy printing to you all, whatever printer and ink you are using 😀

[Andrew Bennett]

quote Kevin Hills – B&P:

Now perhaps if you all start pressuring us to supply free printers, with a lifetime supply of free ink, free media, and an indefinite warranty, you never know 😉

Come on everybody, get him 😀

[Kevin Hills – B&P]

quote Andrew Bennett:

quote Kevin Hills – B&P:

Now perhaps if you all start pressuring us to supply free printers, with a lifetime supply of free ink, free media, and an indefinite warranty, you never know 😉

Come on everybody, get him 😀

I’m just a lowly techie. No good getting me, unless somethings broken 😀

[Paul Hodges]

quote :

Eco-solvents are subject to identical health and safety legislation as full solvent inks. Whilst the marketing claims (ours and theirs) make some bold statements, the HSE makes no distinction between the two.

In summary on that topic, I would say this, a properly vented active solvent is probably safer than an unvented eco-solvent.

sorry for being so abrupt, but that part of the post is rubbish. you only have to stand next to a few machines running the different types of ink to know there is a major difference, vented or otherwise.

regardless of the various merits between full solvent and eco solvent, it has to be worse when some people start to feel ill just because they are in the same room as a full solvent printer. some of us become used to the smell and it doesn’t bother us, but a lot of people hate it, that is the distinction that matters!

[Kevin Hills – B&P]

Rubbish? How rude.

If I had suggested standing in a room, sealing the doors and windows, and printing heavily saturated outut whilst jogging on the spot and breathing deeply I could understand you saying I’m talking rubbish.

I clearly say PROPERLY vented, properly as in fumes are removed.

How many people are now using small eco-solvent printers inside their houses/home offices with no venting at all, on the strength of a salesmans say-so? I maintain that is far more dangerous than a printer running in an industrial facility that is PROPERLY vented.

Paul, having read a number of your posts, and reading that you have done a ‘full year’ of study before buying, having worked with print/printers such as Arizona/Grenadier/Elan etc., and are obviously keen to expand your knowledge on the topic of solvent inkjets, perhaps you should read this, for a better understanding of what PROPERLY vented means.

Health & Safety Document for printers using Solvent Borne Inks http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/p39.pdf

You’ll see this document recommends 5-10 complete air changes per hour.

I have been very straight with my answers in previous posts, actually recommending competitors equipment in certain circumstances, and take offence at being told I’m talking ‘rubbish’ when all I am doing is recommending a safe working environment for users of solvent printers of any type.

However if you want to tell people to carry on printing away, not venting, and everything will be fine, because a: a salesman told you so or b: the ink has Eco written on it, then you go right ahead.

I repeat again, lack of smell is not indicative of lack of solvent, as Eco badged inks become better and more resistant to wear, they equally become less Eco, and the need for venting increases, odour or otherwise.

[Kevin Hills – B&P]

Also note that on the above HSE document, there is a reason for the incoming vent being placed high on the wall, and the exhaust vent being low… solvent fumes are heavier than air. High fan brings fresh air in, low fan expels solvent laden air out.

So if you are drilling holes in your walls to fit an exhaust fan, fit it low down for best performance.

An incoming fan is also worth considering as pumping fresh air into the room at the same time as exhausting the solvent fumes, will rapidly increase the regularity of air changes.

This should leave you working in a virtually odourless, and more importantly, SAFE environment.

[Arthur Rayner]

These comments are fine and the HSE directive excellent, however, when I had a tour around the B&P facility, it was far from odourless, quite the contrary…apparently "people get used to it"…as I’m sure they do..to their detriment perhaps! When I first had my machine installed, I would open my door out on to the street, yet fumes still got into my throat. Yes, I suspect that expensive equipment to change the air might well work, however, how many of us can afford such or have otherwise well vented premises. I take on board however that merely if an ink is odourless it can still be toxic, and toxic is what we all mean, not just an irritating odour!

Could we have from an independent source perhaps, or maybe even B&P just what the "harmful" and toxic content of output is, and in their opinion, which inks are far less toxic. I realise that there might be a trade-off in that perhaps the less toxic, less smelly inks might be the less agressive, but where is such information obtainable from.

[Kevin Hills – B&P]

B&P factory does indeed stink, but there are over 6 superwide (3.2m or wider) printers out there churning out 100’s of metres of print every hour, so it is far from typical. We have Sericol in to do environmental checks every year and apparently we are within guidelines (but I wouldn’t work in there) 😉

Merlin, my advise re venting… Forget all the fancy air purifiers/charcoal filters etc, they can run to £1000’s.

Get a couple of decent Expelair fans, with an an air volume rating that can cope with the size of the room, should be no more than £50 each. Fit one high on one side of room pumping air in, the other low on opposite side of room, pumping air out.

£100, a few hours of your (or someones) time.

I know this works, I’ve been to a customer premises that did just this, and the room was airy and pleasant to work in.

[Arthur Rayner]

Well that’s excellent advice. Why didn’t your sales people suggest such anyway rather than try to sell an expensive product…can’t recall what is was or did? I’d still like to know the toxicity of all inks mind you, since contrary perhaps to opinion, few of us are canaries, and few canaries would have read the exploits of other canaries…those that lived to tell the tale!

[Kevin Hills – B&P]

My comments regarding Salesmen would lead to me being banned 😀

Toxicity levels of Ink, this can be worked out from MSDS sheets (which any supplier is legally bound to make available to you) these sheets contain a list of chemicals, and a CAS number, this CAS number can be cross-referenced, for example 108-94-1 is the CAS number of Cyclohexanone which was used in the first Mimaki JV3 inks.

Type this CAS number into a relevant CAS database such as this one http://hazmap.nlm.nih.gov/index.html and it will return some data including toxicity levels, safe exposure levels etc.

[Paul Hodges]

Kevin, sorry you thought my post was rude, let me just explain that over the years of being in this industry, I, like everyone else here probably, have been subject to various hardware and materials sales pitches which invariably turn out to be half truths at best, I just don’t have time for it these days I’m afraid.

What we have to take in to account with posts from people like yourself is that although I’m sure you know what you’re talking about and some of what you say is informative, you still have something to promote, like all salespeople or representatives, I understand this, I do it almost everyday myself in my own business to a degree.

Taking that in to account, I’m not surprised you’ve said what you said about the harmful effect of various ink, if I was selling your machines I would say the same thing, but at the end of the day we all know that full solvent machines are as good as they are because they are much more aggressive than their counterparts.

I don’t need any documents or research to tell me that working in the same environment as such printers, is far more unpleasant, therefore more likely, more harmful in the long run, that’s not scientific, it’s just common sense, and more importantly, it’s from my own experience.

[Andrew Ritchie]

i have been reading this now and again, i think everything being discussed is relavant, and i do not look on it as a sales pitch of any sort.
at the end of the day, robert was the one to ask the question that is now being answered/discussed.

rob wrote:

quote :

Something I would like to ask anyone, sign maker or supplier. I have heard on more than one occasion now that non-strong smelling inks are equally as toxic as the strong smelling inks? If this is the case, is this not a bit like having a gas without the added odour?
I only ask this because I have been told this by several, “unconnected” people. So thought it maybe a good time to raise the question?

[Kevin Hills – B&P]

Another apology followed by an insult. "people like me". Mr Hodges you sound like Alf Garnett.

I work in the Technical Support Dept., and I couldn’t be less interested in Sales.

The advice given here has been honest and subjective, where necessary I have recomended products that could potentially cost us in lost sales.

I was told by some colleagues it was a mistake to post here, because suppliers are frowned upon. With hindsight, perhaps they were right.

I won’t be posting again, this is all too hostile for my liking.

[Paul Hodges]

lol, that wasn’t an insult Kevin, just trying to point out that you are still representing a company selling a product, be that technical, sales or otherwise, you are hardly likely to say something detrimental to your own company.

In my experience, someone in your position would probably say the complete opposite if their company was selling eco machines, everyone has some kind of agenda, that’s just business. It would be a bit like me recommending the local competition, it’s not going to happen is it?!

The only remark I challenged you on was the respective odour remark, which i stand by, I wouldn’t expect you to stop posting just because one or two people disagree with you on this. I’m sure there are many people on here who could benefit from your knowledge.

[Chris Wool]

quote :

I won’t be posting again, this is all too hostile for my liking

thats a shame cos i was enjoying reading the real facts not hearsay.

chris a avid eco user

[Andrew Ritchie]

paul
i don’t understand the problem here mate.
a question was asked, kev gave his view/reply, quoting links to h&s spec.
fine, he may work for a company offering these type of machines but he is only replying to a question asked. his veiws & opinions like the rest of us.

where are the suppliers of eco-inks (?) they "all" read this forum on a daily basis & they "are" registered. so can do so!

don’t you think we should be allowed to make our own decisions once reading the info provided? i am only commenting here, not looking for a reply because this thread will just go off topic and we do not want that. 😀

this is an intresting thread in my honest opinion. 😀

[Paul Hodges]

Andrew,

I agree with some of that.

Not really sure why you think people can’t make their own minds up though, they almost certainly will do that anyway, I’m only talking from my own experience, I don’t represent the opinions of anyone else on here, obviously.

All i actually did was disagree with one remark that Kevin made, even if he was quoting from something else, I just don’t agree with the original remark, on the basis of my own experience with different types of inkjet printers, that’s all 😉

[David Rowland]

your input is welcome Kevin, although this is a debating forum you will get challenged in what you say. However I always been a big fan of talking to a tech more then a sales person. Techs give the right answer and sales people learn from the techs and give mixed answers.

[Andrew Ritchie]

Ok, now we have an undestanding that this just our views and up to the readers to decide, we can get back on track with the discussion.

I know for a fact we have dozens of other, not only machine suppliers but ink suppliers reading these boards. How about some of you joining in? to defend your own corner or at least give your views.

After all, the post has been viewed more than 1200 times with over 50 replies. So it is certainly a popular topic.

Andy 😎

[Dave Standen]

Hi Folks
I think it’s a pity if the boards has lost a guy with technical knowledge to share with board folks who have inkjet printers – and therefore eventual problems. Especialy folks like Kevin who obviously can type, and has a good command of the English language, and can spell! – all maybe better than me.

Kevin – You come on back and I’ll hold hands with you!

Your info for these folks is invaluable and the boards are better with your information than without it. My bag is with Thermal Transfer – Edge Printing – I’m still learning re InkJet Printing – I know a bit – but you know a lot – I’d like to hear more from you!

I used to get a hiding some years ago on the boards by Edge Users, now you’ve got me out again I’ll probobly get another hiding as well!
I think maybe InkJet printer operators can be worse ….. – its the fumes you know!!!

Come on back – the natives are harmless realy!
Dave Standen

[Marc Burnett]

You’ve upset him. I did warn him you would 😀

I think these forums are a great resource. But they do seem to be a bit supplier unfriendly.

I have been in the Sign Industry for almost 20 years, it is MY industry too, but I’m usually too scared to post here because I often see suppliers getting flamed, or sneered at, for no good reason.

It’s not nice, and not necessary, because looking at what some of you got up to at SignUK you are decent, friendly, normal people.

Rob spent some time socialising with some of us from B&P at SignUK last year, or was it the year before? I’d like to think he’d vouch for us being a good bunch.

[Phill Fenton]

I for one welcome any input here from B&P staff members. There are often questions raised to do with B&P printers such as the Cadet. It certainly doesn’t do B&P’s reputation any harm either to participate here. I personally run a Cadet printer using Activasol inks. I brought the Cadet instead of a Versacamm on the assumption that I was getting a better machine (Upgraded for solvent ink) than if I had simply bought a Versacamm. I had thought at the time this would always give me the choice to run with either B&P inks or make a switch to "Ecosolvent" should I choose to do so. Kevins Clarification that this is a posssibilty is a welcome piece of information even though at this moment in time I see no benefit in doing so.

I never really understood why the Roland company produced the versacamm to run on Ecosolvent inks and allowed another organisation to sell an adapted version to run on solvent ink. I have always wondered why Roland should wish to distance itself from the solvent machine. Surely it would have made sense to produce a "Cadet like" Versacamm and offer a range of inks (from ecosolvent to full solvent) to run in the machine. As it is Roland have only captured a percentage of the market which they now share it with B&P. I can only assume that Roland prefer to distance themselves from the use of solvent ink for whatever reason?

[John Childs]

I don’t run a B&P printer but I have learned a lot from this thread and I am grateful for Kevin’s input.

Not everybody has an ulterior motive when posting and I think that I am old enough and smart enough to be able to tell the difference. I would go further and say that people who suspect ulterior motives at every turn usually have plenty of their own in their own business dealings and that this type of attack says more about the flamer than the flamee.

Kevin, please don’t tar us all with the same brush and let comments from a couple of people spoil it for the rest us. There are a lot more people reading this thread than posting, and getting the benefit of your writings.

[valegraphics]

I fully agree with phill and john. How can we NOT benefit from kevins knowledge and advice. Trouble is with opinions theyre like @rseholes…….everyone has got one!!! Sorry to be so blunt. But true.

And opinions vary hugely on bad/good experiences. Dont get me wrong im not sniping, just an observation that we shouldnt get carried away with stories. Its clear that kevin and b&p as a whole can benefit us users if left to post. I think we can see kevin is a techy not a slaes rep! Let them post freely as we too do.

Kevin. Dont be put off by these people. They / we are a good bunch. Just very passionate about what they / we do.

Matt

[Peter Shaw]

I’m really sorry if Kevin won’t be posting any more. He has been the leading rock of integrity in my dealings with B & P, always helpful and assuring of solutions to problems, and, I believe, truly unbiased.

I do understand his feelings of feeling insulted when trying to help us. There have been some unecessarily rude posts.

This started with Paul Hodges disagreement with Kevin. The point Paul made was valid but the criticism wrong. Kevin was describing the technical situation with respect to HSE not the subjective opinion regarding smell.

In an ideal world some apologies might be forthcoming for stupid harsh words, and Kevin might be induced to contribute again.

I, for one, will miss his relevant and valid input.

Peter

[Marc Burnett]

Kevin is out on the road today but wanted me to say Thanks for the supportive feedback.

He wasn’t sulking he was just a bit peeved at being accused of selling.

The worst thing you can accuse a Technical Bod of doing, is trying to sell stuff – salesmen are their sworn enemies. 😉

I think the most relevant info on this topic is now on here anyway but if you have any specific questions that you want answering, Kevin or one of our Techs will respond either here or by PM.

[Paul Hodges]

It’s funny how things things can get out of hand.

Thanks Peter for mentioning that it was (and still is) a valid point.

I was the first person to tell kevin to keep posting for those who can benefit from his advice, but hey, if someone stops posting because somebody else questioned something they said…..what’s next, we just accept everything we are told?

For anyone who is following this thread, I never said Kevin was a salesman, I never accused him of selling, I was merely pointing out that for someone in his position, he is likely to favour his own side in any type of disagreement, as you would expect, and that doesn’t always result in impartial advice or comment, it’s not personal, it’s just a generalisation, I’m sure Kevin is a great bloke who helps a lot of people, but i still think the original remark was mis-leading and innacurate…sorry!

and to just reply to John’s comment, I wasn’t actually trying to flame anyone, I certainly don’t have an agenda, other than to question things that i don’t believe are true, or accurate.

I suppose we can either all hold hands and be friends, or we can use these forums to try to find out what is really true in our industry.

Sorry for any offence…none was intended.

[Dave Standen]

Hi Folks
Well I think maybe Kevin can see that at least some folks actualy WANT his input – and effectively there has benn a collective ‘come on back’

So – Kevin – your input is appreciated – the folks want you back!

Give it another go man …

What about the business of some solvent or semi solvent inks having been formulated to MASK the toxic fumes ie – sometimes the inks WITHOUT a smell can be the worst ?

Regards Dave Standen

[Arthur Rayner]

What about the business of some solvent or semi solvent inks having been formulated to MASK the toxic fumes ie – sometimes the inks WITHOUT a smell can be the worst ?

That’s where the canaries come in handy of course!

[Stephen Morriss]

I’ve made this point many times, smell is no indication of toxidity.

I find it more interesting about the toxins being hevier than air as I was going to put my extration high, now I’ll be fitting a low one.

As to rude posts, many times I’ve had to rewrite a post because I’ve looked it over again and found it to appear rude or short, I think it’s mainly because I’m really slow at typing and don’t take the time to type a full sentance. This post tooke me 5 minuits to write 🙂

So don’t be too offended Kevin because it may be that if you’d been talking face to face with Paul the conversation may have gone slightly differently, and I really appresiate your input and knowlage.

edit (bugger The spell check didn’t work :lol1: )

Steve