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Unethical or what?
I’m sure that this has happened to others, but I would be interested to know what sort of things could be done to address the situation? Anyway, it boils down to the following. I was contacted at the beginning of last week by a firm that was desperate to get a sign up outside their new premises. Apparently they had some blank swing sign panels but their normal sign maker was too busy to help them out.
So as it was a bit of an emergency I dropped everything and went to see them. I spent the best part of an hour chatting with them explaining the different ways they could present themselves on the boards etc, the full sales pitch. I said I would email a quote with a layout later that day. Anyway, they promised that they would email me a copy of their logo, which they did – it turns out to be a fairly low res’ bitmap! So as quickly as I could I turned it into a vector, thinking this would make the design look a lot better? I then finished off a very passable design/layout which had a couple of good space saving ideas and the whole thing was nice and clear, if I say so myself! I sent this off the same day having spent what amounted to approx 3 hours on the pitch overall, I heard nothing, not a word of thanks, or we received your email, zilch.
Then on Saturday morning driving my daughter to her swimming lessons –guess what? There’s my design in all it’s glory swinging gently in the breeze from this firms new swing sign! 😮 They hadn’t even the decency to change one single element of it, I was livid; if I hadn’t had my 8 year old with me I would have burst into their office like a mad axe man!
When I got home I was still fuming, and it was then that I discovered an email from them, which read as follows:
“Thanks for the design, the signwriter that we have previously used also responded shortly after you were in and gave a slightly more competitive price.
We would be more than happy to get you to quote for further work if you would be willing”.I think this made me even madder, of course their previous sign bloke was cheaper – he didn’t have to do the bloody design! 👿 Anyway, I’m not sure what I’m going to do next, but it does help to get it off your chest! Having said all of the above, and as I said at the beginning, I’m sure I’m not alone in this experience and would be very interested in what others have done in similar circumstances?
PS This company carries every trade badge known to man plus ‘Investors in People’ and ‘Trading Standards Approved’ badges (very loud gnashing of teeth)!!
Cheers all, Spooky
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15 Replies
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if the design is yours, which it clearly is, then send them a bill for your time, they’ve no intenton, in my mind, of using you again, except for free artwork, explain that you own the copywrite to the design submitted, and invested x amount of hours in reproducing a substandard image and in making the design layout, then just send them an invoice for payment for services rendered.
they seem to have no problem in using your services for the artwork, so they should in turn pay for it.
it may also be worth contacting consumer direct (1st ort of call when dealing with trading standards) for some good free advice.
good luck.
Hughps, of course, these signs could mysteriously disappear, kids these days hey, they’l nick anything !
btw, how did you send your design to them ? not in any form of vector format i hope ! either way, they liked the design, i reckon £30-40 per hours is in order !
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Been there, bought the shirt.
Hard call, they probably will not pay, but, take a digital photo of the finished job, do a print out of your design, combine them in an envelope with the bill for your time.
Make no apologies, just invoice them for artwork and design ideas ‘as per your meeting’ dated xx/xx/06.
You may be surprised, they may pay you, but if they do, you’ll never see them again either.
I find being bold and brash is more successful than being mild and timid.
I have experienced this almost word for word several times. I let the first guy get away with by appealing to their sense of justice. They laughed in my face.
Now, I send a bill, and make no apologies. Most will pay, but they’ll abuse you in the process.
Cheers
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forgot to add, don’t bother feeling bad about it, we’ve all done it, i recently spent 10hrs designing. meeting and quoting for a job, only to realise i’d been a complete twat when three weeks later i saw all the signs up, as per the kak jpegs i was asked to work on, customer said they’d done them in some paint shop software or other.
now… any of those jobs, where i’ll be asked to produce art based on work on a disk, will require a deposit up front. i dont want to be accused by another shop of doing work based on thier designs, to my knowledge i havent, other than to reproduce existing work already on a vehicle, but i guess it’s sometimies hard to tell if a customer or another signshop has provided the low quality images on the disk !
this particular guy, as far as i know, only wanted an alternative quote to see if he was being charged accordingly, i have no doubt that he had no intentions of using my services otherwise.
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We have a strict company policy, quote the job, purchase order, then begin design work. We will not produce any artwork without a confirmed order.
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but how do the customers know what you’ll be supplying ? or is this policy only on art supplied ?
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Hugh, the quotation lists the specification, this includes what will be supplied, all the customer wants at this stage is a price, so give them just that!
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quote Hugh Potter:it may also be worth contacting consumer direct (1st ort of call when dealing with trading standards) for some good free advice.
good luck.
Hugh
!What a shame that F.A.C.T The Federation Against Copyright Theft is only for film and television.
But this might be worth reading
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Uk … .htm#mdiv1 -
Thanks for all of the above, very sound advice indeed. For me it is no longer about the money, it is the principal. I don’t care if I’m not asked to quote on any future work, I probably would avoid it anyway. I agree with Chris in fact, I should have only quoted the job and not submitted the design, but of course when you pitch for a job with a company where you think there might be plenty of repeat business you do pull out the stops. I suppose I was a bit naive in that respect?
I don’t even mind losing out on a bid, if someone can do it cheaper, fine, let them do it, that’s life. What I do object to is them passing over a decent design and getting someone else to do the work, it’s easy to be competitive then! At the very least they should have asked my permission? As it stands my instinct is to bill them, but I would rather they paid the money to a charity of my choice – but I’m probably being naive again!
regards, Spooky
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PS Sorry, message for Hugh. I sent it as a pdf only. The other sign maker who did the work would have had his own vectors.
Spooky
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thats not soo bad, but a pdf is easily scalable and makes for easy copying, i now give a smallish low res jpg or bitmap, takes alot longer to vector cos the lins are not fine, they’re all blurred when enlarged,
as for the bill, bill them for the cash, then give it to charity if you please, but let them know you won’t be taken for a mug !
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can you not put a faded image of your logo or something along the lines of *visual proof* through the proof, very feint but enough for it not to be copied by someone else?
sure they can copy it but they will have to take the time to re draw it etc.
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quote smedia:can you not put a faded image of your logo or something along the lines of *visual proof* through the proof, very feint but enough for it not to be copied by someone else?
sure they can copy it but they will have to take the time to re draw it etc.
this would only affect a printed image, a jpeg, even with sample’ written thru it/watermarked, can easily be redrawn accurately whislt leaving out the watermark.
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on this post i agree with Chris.
first you quote. when they say ok get it in writing and then design.never ever design before the ok ever….never ever ever ever.
it took me 2 years to learn that money comes first and foremost and the design laterserious custumors ask for a quote, give their ok and then discuss design.
when you give your quote set the date on wich you can plan your work in and will do the requested job.
this way they not only give the thumbs up on your price but have planned the date with you. this makes the quote an order and not just a quote.
design is just something that has to be done in between order approval and application.also when you hear the phrase "my regular guy" their not your customur and you don’t have to give them any favors of designing the job for them.
your not their regular guy, they have no bonds with you, what’s to stop them from taking your free design and shop around.
if you cannot get around designing before approval do as i do:
send them a secured pdf for wich you set a password to allow selection print or anything else. and put your price smack in the midlle of it.
they can’t do anything but take the entire pdf to shop around and nobody likes to shop around with a job that already has a name and a pricetag on it.one last tip: if they say they cant open it and want a jpeg send them the free pdf download-link. that will give them the message and you have always been polite, and a smart buissnesman.
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Spooky
send them an invoice & letter explaining that the invoice is to cover design time and as only been incurred due to the fact that they gave the design to the other sign company to copy, and that the design is copywrited to you. Explain that the reason the other signwriter was probably cheaper than you was that they did not have to spend time designing the sign. Give them the option to pay the invoice or remove your copywrited design from there signboard. At worst its cost you your time to write the invoice & letter send copies of any emails etc you have which may help, you may be pleasantly surprised
Second alternative fine a big brick & throw it has hard has you can
Best of luck
Kev
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I’d charge them for your time and the design. Its people like that, that make me sick. The other sign maker can hang his head in shame be using your design.. sign makers like that make me ashamed to be in the trade.. glad I’m trying to get out of signs and do something instead. bloody cowboys in this world ruin it for the rest of us.. and yes I’ve had the same thing happen to me many times!!!!!!!!
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