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Trainee or Experianced??
Hi all,
I am looking to take on a new member of staff and wondered which is the best route to go?
Do I go for someone with experiance in the sign industry, which means more cost but more output, or should I take on a trainee which means less out put but less cost as far as wages go?would like to know from others who employ people which route they have found works best.
any input would be appreciated.
Cheers
Ian -
26 Replies
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Check out the topic “minimum wage” and make your own mind up.
paul
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although finding a time served guy can be immediate solution, i tend to think many job hop! the good ones are normaly snapped up already.
look at what you want this guy to do & word the advert very carefully!
i.e. i got a guy in to run our vinyl cutters etc
he has a spare 30mins to kill so he sits on the bench playing with his mobile phone. when asked, “havent you something you can be doing” his reply is “no”,,, “what about emptying those bins you have filled with vinyl?” he slowly gets off the bench and starts to do it… once i left the room, he comments to another worker. i came here to work cutters not empty bins! (so where did it say, play with your mobile at every opertunity 😕 )
its got to apoint you have to cover yourself at every turn. when interveiwing, go over “everything” let them understand what they are coming into do & what it covers. (what you want it to cover)
starting a teenager has the obvious problems, (need we go there?) but if you land lucky then thumbs up.
over time you get someone to work with you and learn the way you think jobs should be done. you both understand each other and tend to get more done, & done right.
getting someone time served can be the best all rounder, no training & they can get right to work. “that again is, if you land lucky” in my experience, many want to work as they did in with their employer before, or they want to run the company for you! this is normaly just as bad if not worse.
ill never forget the guy i started from a glasgow firm. when asked various questions on vinyls. all he could reply was he was sh!t hot! i mean that… his exact words. so i started him. he lasted 2 days! he was certainly sh*t, but no sign of hot! this same guy was a manager from another firm, responsible for 10 staff i think it was, & had been with them 9 years.
if looking to train someone up, then try the local college covering the courses. im not saying you will get the one you are after but at least if they have stuck out 2 years at college, you know they are willing to at least give it a go.anyway.. ill leave this for now and try to add more to it later.
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I prefer the trainee route.
They don’t come with any baggage and you can teach them to do things the way YOU want them done. It takes time, but at least whilst they are learning you don’t have to pay them so much, and in a couple of years you should have a good man to whom you can afford to give a good wage.
Of course, as Robert intimates, finding the right one is the trick and you might have to go through a few before you find the right person. But that is true with an experienced one also.
I’m in the same boat and am currently looking for a new trainee.
Good luck.
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The ideal employee arrives early, leaves late, does a good days work, shows initiative, and expects a fair salary.
The person you are looking for is very rare. Anybody with the attributes that you want can be found on this forum. Unfortunately they work for themselves.
All you can do is compromise, and hope for the best, and see how it goes.
By the way, If the person you do employ is absolutley usless, dont forget to pay them the maximimum wage.
Peter 😉 -
quote :The ideal employee arrives early, leaves late, does a good days work, shows initiative, and expects a fair salary.I wonder what the general signage industry would define as a “fair salary” for someone fitting the above, that is to say most of the forum!! Any ideas anyone?
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Oh dear, here we go again 😉
Humble opinion, but from experience I’d settle for someone who listens. I have a young chap at the moment who is listening, and he’s coming on leaps and bounds. I can honestly say, he’s learning faster than I could have ever have hoped, and is battlling through the workload faster than I am!! 😮
Training someone to weed can take time, as I discovered, but I agree with John. I’d much rather take a raw recruit than take on someone who is set in their ways. The more experienced worker will often question what you ask them to do, and whilst I know there is perhaps a better way to do a task, when it comes to emptying a bin, how many ways can there be? Thats how daft it got! 😮 😕
Good luck though, with the right employee you’ll be amazed how fast your business can progress and grow. It certainly makes a difference to be able to deligate the weeding, taping and packing, leaving you to make more sales, do more designs and generally run the business 😀
Cheers, Dewi
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It’s all a bit of a lottery I s’pose. I have come across trainees who pick things up very quickly and others who need to be told everything in simple terms. Everyone has their own aptitudes but are equally capable of becoming skilled and valued staff. You just don’t know what you are getting even with ‘fully’ skilled staff – I’ve met some very able colleagues who were just plain old tossers who I couldn’t work with. My choice would be a beginner, but of course only you know how much time you would be able to give to training a beginner.
Make a good job of spelling out just what you are expecting from them at interview. Maybe this will get rid any time wasters.
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Keith,
As I said in THAT other thread – if they are a school leaver joining as a trainee – start them on minimum wage.
I then increase their pay as they prove that they are worth more. I don’t make them ask, but do it voluntarily if I feel that their performance warrants it. 50 pence an hour here and 25 pence an hour there as they become more valuable to me.
It depends on area of course, but the maximum a fitter is going to get around here is in the region of £9.00 per hour. Some make it to those dizzy heights but some get stuck at £8.00 or £7.00 or even £6.00 per hour because that’s what I perceive is their value.
For the very, very talented, £9.00 doesn’t need to be the end of it though. I am currently going through the process of training my best man to take on some of my work and hopefully as time passes he will do more and more and eventually replace me altogether. I haven’t decided on a remuneration package for him yet, I’ll see how he gets on, but I will probably leave him on the same weekly pay but give him a percentage of profits and in that way his pay will then be tied very closely to his performance and the more he makes for himself the more he will make for me. Hopefully that way we will both be winners.
I hope I’ve got it right.
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John, you sound like the best boss in the world! When, and if, he replaces you, will you make him grow a beard?
Sorry, I’ve been on the beer.
What an incentive scheme though. One thing that has always disheartened me in the past has been the lack of opportunity for progression in the places I’ve worked and I must admit that merely earning a wage can be less than enough.
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We prefer trained ppl , often they have tips tricks and contacts you dont and you get productivity immediately.
Depends however on the salary you want to pay and your patience. Eventually as the guy gets experienced , you have to pay top wages so the low salary holiday doesnt last long and of course training is a drain on your time and productivity too. An inexperienced person cannot really show what they are capable of and their level of creativity and understanding , whereas an experienced guys output and limitiations can easily be seen. The obverse is the problems of breaking old habit ot tequniques which might not be suitable for your process.
We have a great initial “filter” , we ask for ppl to send a 2 page CV to us. Amazing the amount that send us mini novels and the like , but we dont even READ those , cos they arent capable of following even the most BASIC of instructions , namely:
“Send a *2 PAGE* Cv”!!!!!!!!!! -
quote :…leave him on the same weekly pay but give him a percentage of profits and in that way his pay will then be tied very closely to his performance…
John, that is a very interesting and tremendously forward thinking approach, in my humble opinion. I think it is a superb idea to directly link remuneration with overall company performance. I believe that everyone would win in that environment, but I guess, as usual, that it does all come down to being lucky enough to find the right individual in the first place.
By the way, this was DEFINITELY not meant to be a continuation of the “Minimum Wage” debate!!
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quote Keith Nilsen:By the way, this was DEFINITELY not meant to be a continuation of the “Minimum Wage” debate!!
What was that then? Did I miss something? 😮
😉
I suppose its also going to be down to what you can afford as well, if you go for someone experienced, I presume the wage will be higher? Although it maybe the quickest way to get the job done with the right person, if you just haven’t got the pennies to begin with (and we all have a slack week here and there) it could be that your only option is to train someone up.
Cheers, Dewi
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No Dewi, that was mentioned just in case!!
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quick reply here, just popping out.
no matter how good someone tells me they are, i never start them on what they are asking. always a 3 month trial period. after that, if they are worth it, then fair do’s. they get what they asked.
i dont mean the trial period is on minimum wage by the way 😉
i find it takes 3 months to actually get a real feel for the way someone works. maybe thats just me? 🙄 -
“i find it takes 3 months to actually get a real feel for the way someone works. maybe thats just me? ”
It’s not just you Robert. I have great difficulty in weighing somebody up properly in a half hour interview, and make lots of mistakes. I put it down to my cr@p interview technique.
This is one of my reasons for trying promotion from within. At least I have a better idea of the person involved.
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It would be a shame if this topic was left to run without some valid input :lol1:
One, just one observation……….then I’m out of here……promise 😎
I read into some of the posts on here, and on another thread who’s title I cannot recall 😉 a desire for ‘experience’.
Wearing a former hat, it took me some years of hiring and firing, recruting and training before a wise old sage gave me a brief tutorial in recruitment do’s and don’ts.
The key was quite simple, as an example, i’d been looking for experienced daily newspaper sales people and was recruiting experienced magazine sales people thinking their skills would be instantly transferable. They weren’t. I’d been recruiting against CV’s that indicated similar technical experience but which didn’t actually exist.
I always remember this guys saying, ‘When recruiting a singer it is not difficult to find someone who can hold a tune but do they sing songs you like and can they PERFORM?’
So, ook for the qualities you require rather than pure experience. Not trying to teach anyone to suck eggs but it’s so easy to get swept away at interview by someone who has experience but no ability! (:)
Folowing his advice I took on a Dyslexic Copywriter, a 17 year old used car salesman and a page 3 girl! Best sales team I ever had!
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like rodney has said,
we had a guy that had a CV of about 10 pages.
6 months here, a year there and so on. at a glance i could see his long list of short term jobs. albeit with reputable firms.
i said, sorry, i dont think your what we are looking for. his reply was, “but have you seen who i have worked for?”
he didnt seem to grasp that if he had been with one of those firms 3-5 years ide have probably started him. but the way i see it, job hoppers are job hoppers. whether they get the boot or leave because someone is giving them 50p an hour more. they job hop and you have very little chance of keeping them long term. so why waste your time? -
Actually , albeit its not that “ethical” , the best employees we have are those that come from similar Co’s who have not realized the value of the employee and have paid em minimum wages. I never actively poach staff , but am prepared to interview someone in that position who approaches us. I NEVER hire a direct competitors staff member however , it has to be an industry or market that is allied. I have had plenty folk wanting to work for me and “sing like a canary” about their old employers/jobs/customers etc – however if they prepared to do that to their former employees , who says they won’t do it to me.
My 2nd in charge here was actually a rep for one of my suppliers and 3 years on she earns around 3x her previous salary and has almost carte blanche in running the place.
When we hire , we hire on a one month contract , and then extend it to 3 months , thereon to 6 months and only after that do we put the person on perm staff. Firing someone is a major headache here due to PC laws etc so one has to be VERY confident the person has the skills and ability you are looking for.
I treat a CV as a screening device and hardly rely on it when hiring. I have found that ppl oversell themselves somewhat , claiming all sorts of abilities and in practical terms , they don’t have them hence the contract thing.
I place loyalty to myself and the co as well as reliability high up there , I would rather have a slow worker thats comes in every morning than someone brilliant who takes days off , is a latecomer etc. I have someone like that on one of my primary production machines , he’s brilliant , but every morning I agonize till he comes in.
We also cross train our staff , unless there is someone else who can do one of my staff jobs preferably as well as they can , they don’t get to be permanent.
Profit sharing is a good and bad idea , essentially you are giving part of the co away and have to be prepared to open the businesses books to the employee. On the other hand , it encourages hard work and more productivity. We give performance bonuses. Staff are the most valuable asset you have and give one the most headaches 🙂 -
my pence worth.
Nearly all of us on the boards are the owners of the business.
We work dam hard to make our business work. Speaking about myself, I`ve never worked so hard in my life.
Less holidays
Less time of sick
Whats sick pay??
A longer working week.
Work at night when I get home.
etc
etc.But the employee, doesn`t have that push They might love the job, but its just a job to them, that pays the rent etc.
The problem we have with finding an emplyee is
we expect them to work as hard as us.
It`ll never happen in a million years.Thinking back to my last job, I was the best tea maker on the planet….
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We employed 2 fantastic apprentice panel beaters approx 8-9 weeks ago and it`s refreshing to see 2 young lads show such enthusiasm and initiative at 16 years of age. Not 1 day sick or absent between them and they just don`t stop.
We asked the recruitment agency to supply us with a copy of these boy`s final school report cards, which they did, before we gave them a trial and it showed that they were very consciencious and hard workers.
If they played truant and slacked at school, then theres a good chance this carries through into their working life and i`d rather avoid this type like the plague. Looking back at my classmates when i was at school, the hard-workers have all done well, the truant players and dope smokers are either in jail or sponging social security 🙂
Seemed to work for us, and it`s something i`d ask for again should we require anymore school leavers. Next step will be asking for their feotal scans to make sure their head shapes are correct. After that then it will definately be DNA cloning etc. 😉
If i were you john, i`d look for a quality school leaver with a decent school report card and train him up to your way of working.
Another thing i done with my nephew when he first started working with me in our sign dept was to pin a chart on the production room wall with 20 squares in it.
Each square represented a pound. The 20 quid was his at the end of the week but each time he lost a letter when weeding, or got a crease when fitting, he got a cross in the box. Turning up late for work = 5 crosses. 1 cross meant a pound deducted from his 20 quid “bonus”.
I can safely say that after about 2-3 weeks of red crosses, his weeding and fitting was 99% perfect. It was a game, but it worked really well and got him thinking about what he was doing prior to starting his work.
He is now at the stage where i trust him to start and finish a job exactly the way i want it, and it`s only around 5 months since he started. The pressure it`s taken off me is immense. I was going round the bend in the spring.
Also, the beauty of starting with a blank canvass, is that any fault he has is something you have caused and you can quickly sort it out. Rob has already highlighted the problems associated with employees who are too long in the tooth.
Hope this helps a little.
Rod
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McRod,
That is a great system you introduced for your nephew!! It links neatly to performance related bonuses, which generally work well with young starters.
I think also that every so often you have to deposit a large and “scary” job onto newer employees, and let them get on with it. Then you can observe how they have progressed, as well as allow them the space to grow in skills and confidence through inspired and constructive feedback.
The result – More skills, greater confidence. Greater confidence, higher quality work. Higher quality work, more pride. More pride, better (and happier!) employee!
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quote :We employed 2 fantastic apprentice panel beaters approx 8-9 weeks ago and it`s refreshing to see 2 young lads show such enthusiasm and initiative at 16 years of age. Not 1 day sick or absent between them and they just don`t stop.
Allelujah……….where were you when the OTHER thread was running :lol1: Great post demonstrating that there’s some good young talent out there and a superb system for generating a bit of humour and dedication.
Out of interest can I ask what hourly rate these lads are on only your bonus scheme represents a days wages by some peoples reckoning?
I have to disagree slightly with your ‘play truant’ get knowhere analogy. The biggest rogue at our school had several businesses at a very young age and has now retired to count his money……..! He had no fear of the consequences of bankruptcy as he was too thick to understand.
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We offer School leavers £3.20 per hour.
The “bonus” scheme i mention doesn`t include these 2 guys tho, as teaching them to straighten the chassis on a 70 grand Scania Tractor Unit is a little bit more technical than weeding stickers, however, these 2 guys i mentioned have excellent potential, providing they maintain their current attitude. At the moment their wages are mostly earned by standing around watching and learning and taking notes from the time served panel beaters. They have shown a great interest in this tho to the point of them being 6 months further advanced than we anticipated. definately a nice bonus for us as a company.
I feel it must be said tho, that it took us 14-15 canditates to find these 2. Funny thing about them is that the came from the recrutiment company together on the same day. The previous 12 to 13 people simply couldn`t care less. 2 o3 three showed promise at the beginning but after 3-4 weeks their interest waned and we got the usual Monday morning phone calls of them being.. “unable to come to work today because of an upset tummy”. Strange phenomenon that, never a Tuesday or a Wednesday….always a Monday.
I see your point on the “truant” thingy, but it now works for us. We don`t want any potential entrepreneurs and i`ll never risk wasting precious time on a school leaver unless he brings his last school report with him.
My nephew is the fellow i use the “bonus scheme” with and it`s remarkable how focussed and alert a 16 year old can be if there is a risk of him loosing his £20.00. Its odd, but his wage that he earn`s takes a total backseat when this £20.00 is jeapordised. He seems to care more about the £20.00 cash in hand that he does about the £130.00 ish going into his bank account. Go figure :). I forgot to mention in my last post that calling in sick counts as 20 crosses, i.e. weekly bonus is void. It lets me know almost 100% that if he does actually call in sick….then he most definately is sick but in 5 months, he hasn`t missed a day.
So 3 great 16 year old apprentices, all motivated and all attending work regularly with no sick days that i can remember. Sounds like Hell has frozen over 🙂
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quote :I feel it must be said tho, that it took us 14-15 canditates to find these 2
That’s always a problem when recruiting but this can cut both ways as many employers expect a steady gradual always upward progression which doesn’t allow for a breather on the way to the summit! Difficult to justify as a small business but certainly worth looking at the longer term with some kids.
My induction course for Yellow Pages. 42 people for 3 weeks in 4 star hotel, £20 a night out of pocket expenses and that was back in 88! 2 people sacked in first week, after 3 months there were 6 of us left across the country! As an employer they were releasing people too early.
Likewise on a national paper. Out of 12 newbies only 1 was left when I jumped ship 2 years later.
Most went on to very successful careers with other companies.
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Guess I opened a real can of worms here :lol1:
Thanks for all the input.. Having thought long and hard about it and listened to the input from here I will look for someone with experience, I want to spend more time designing and less time fitting.. In the long term I want someone to take over the overall running of the place in the next 5 years so I am hoping I can find the right person for the job.
Cheers
Ian -
Just hope they are experianced enough to spell E X P E R I E N C E D
Peter 😉
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