Too good to be true?

[Andy Gorman]

Yes, you’re missing the fact that you may go without any work at all for sometimes weeks at a time. Also, you can make 200 squids for doing a van……if you’re good at it.

Seriously though, yes you’re right – it does take a while and a lot of hard work to get established, but the rewards both financial and in terms of job satisfaction can be very good in my experience. There’s always more to anything than is immediately obvious and I’m sure you’re about to see a lot of examples in the replies to this post. Your setup costs, for example are more than just buying a plotter and some vinyl: electric, travelling costs, insurance etc.

Read as many posts on this site as you can and you’ll learn a whole lot about the ins and outs of running a small or large sign business.

[Robert Lambie]

phil
you have just reminded me mate that you sent me an email last week i think. i replied to you, but got some kind of notice about you NOT getting it. i checked your profile and the email was correct.
if you didnt get it email me at uksigngroup@hotmail.com, cheers mate

as for the above, ill reply a little later, just going for a mcdonalds 😉

[PhilB]

I have two alternatives, stay in retail or warehousing and work 39hrs a weeks for 5 quid an hour, shift work too plus weekends or start something up myself. I’m good with a pc and enjoy toying around with graphics and desktop publishing.

Cos i’m unemployed I get some help to start up a business, (advice and some funding (not much tho)), plus for the first six months of trading I can still claim jobseekers allowance.

So I have six months to get things up and running, then I need about £200 quid a week to match the warehouse job that I would be doing if i didnt have my own business. Does that make sense.

I don’t want to make a fortune as you can see, a bit of job satisfaction and to be able to pick my hours of work to an extent would be great.

Perhaps a website selling t-shirts with designs on would bring in a bit of income during the slack times.

Phil

[Andy Gorman]

Mmmm well, only you know what your abilities are. Put it this way: I became self employed about a year ago. I had 18 years experience as a signmaker but it took me about 4 months before I was making a regular income. I take it you have no signmaking experience? You need to learn at least the basics of the trade before anyone will pay you to do it. Obviously you don’t need to be skilled in all areas of the trade before you start, but it’s not just a case of being good with computers. Maybe a compromise would be to continue working for an employer whilst picking up sign work and learning in your spare time. Could be difficult, but I know that is how some members on here have done it. For a skilled signmaker with some reputation 200squids a week is a doddle to earn. Getting skilled and a reputation is the hard bit.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

You can’t really just plug in a sign cutter and watch the money pour in.
Where I live, signs are seasonal.
It’s like owning an ice cream parlor.
I get busy in March, boom all through until August, then it dies by October.

Start-up is expensive, materials are expensive,
and it is hard to know what to charge
so that you’re not leaving money on the table.
It’s also very important to learn about layout, color and design BEFORE
you start selling your wares to clients.

It took me at least 5 years in business to see a profit in every month.
Make sure to save for a rainy day when you can.
There are times when I’ve made over $200 in an hour.
Then there are times when I’ve made diddly-squat all week.
It’s either feast or famine.
Good luck!
Love….Jill

[Robert Lambie]

quick reply here mate..

personaly i think you are making the right move.
if you are artistic, have good knowledge of a computer & are damn hard working, there is nothing to stop you gowing into your own business.
depending on the types of signs you get into, the above experience may not enough though.
on the other hand, if you are willing to start at the bottom, work hard and devote many hours into practice. there is nothing to stop you.
there are many “cowboys” out there doing a real good job and turning our industry bad. dont be one, learn from others, ask advice & dont be tempted to go the cheap route at producing signs like may others do when things dont go just to plan.
vehicle signage is a safe bet, simply because you have no materials other than vinyl and app tape. its got decent profits but there is more to learn than sticking it to the van.
good designs, well applied graphics using good vinyl is the only way to go to build yourself a good reputation. charging low is not the way to do it, even if you think your making decent money. think about tommorrow, not just today 😉
the average priced transit will vary from £120 -£160 roughly… you can manage to do this in half a day from design to completion as this is based on basic cut text & logo.
finding the work and keeping the customers coming is the hard part.

ill try reply again a little later 😀

[Norma Hill]

Hi Phill B
Glad to see someone from my neck of the woods on the boards,
when you start up stay FOCUSED and do not let the odd setback get on your WICKES,any help required feel free to contact us.

NORMA & KEVIN

[Bill Dewison]

If you look through the backposts Phil, you’ll find that a year ago I was thinking the same thing. I was a graphic designer, wanting job satisfaction more than a big pay cheque.

As Robert and others have said, if you want to make a go (that’s ‘go’ Mr Lambie, rather than ‘gow’ :lol1: ) of it, jump in and ask away. I must’ve annoyed the hell out of everyone here, asking hundreds of questions and learning from others experiences. When I posted up my first few jobs, I was nervous as hell… I mean what you have here is a large group of professionals, would they really rate the work of a two bit designer who was trying to become a signmaker? 😕

Yes they bloody well would! I recieved more than a little support, constructive critism and a good healthy dollop of humour that encouraged me to try more and more tasks in the sign world.

Don’t misunderstand me here, as others have said, its not easy sailing, there have been weeks when all I’ve wanted to do is pack everything up, weeks where the work hasn’t come through the doors (I run a sign shop btw) but whats kept me going is the fact that I value what I’ve learnt from here, how much help I’ve been given by signmakers who genuinely want to help and the belief that I can do whatever I set my mind to. I’m not the best signmaker in the world by far, but I’ll stick in there and try. As Big G says, there are weeks when you won’t earn anything, so looking on and thinking ‘Ahh, £200 for a van, I only earn that for a full week at the moment’ is a tad unrealistic, but if you keep in mind that you’ll have slack weeks, when the work does come to you, you’ll make damn sure you do the best job you can and charge good money for it.

Unfortunately as many will tell you here, I can go on and on and on and on and on, so I’ll shut up before I bore you to tears, but you’ve picked the best place to learn the trade! 😀

Cheers, Dewi

[PhilB]

Hi Norma and Kev

Its still early days, Its nice to get a vote of encouragement esp from yourselves.

If I do decide to go ahead theres no doubt I will be in touch.

Philb

[Nicola McIntosh]

very nicely said dewi!! 😀 😛 😛

Nik

[Phill Fenton]

Don’t be a woos!!

You only get one bleeding life so go ahead and do it!!

If you have the confidence to go for it you will make a good living as a signmaker 😀

[Rodney Gold]

More important than anything else is the realization of EXACTLY what sign guys do – and ultimately it’s to increase your customers bottom line – no one pays good money in a business if they aren’t going to reap a benefit. Whatever you do in signage , you MUST have this in mind.
Secondly , having a business plan and some start up capital is VITAL
So If I were you , this would be my plan of action
Don’t give up the day job but initially do market research , like who your competitors are , what they charge , what equipment they have , who would be your potential customers and more importantly WHY would they come to YOU.
One you have established this and then decide to continue with your plans , then establish your capital costs , IE equipment and so forth.
You then need to target your proposed customers one way or another ands explain to them the benefits of your service. This too costs money , but there are quite a few cheap marketing tools , like sending a press release to the local papers, advertising on community boards , cold calling etc. ABOVE all , you have to have some sort of portfolio and be very professional about stuff like stationery , business cards etc. You are enhancing a customers image , or providing that customer with some form of getting more custom , so your marketing attempt HAS to reflect this – if you can’t do it for yourself , you can’t do it for your customer.
Working capital is vital , you need 4-6 months worth of it.

I’m going to be pretty blunt here , your experience in graphic design is not the basis for starting up this type of business , vinyl cutting isn’t rocket science , but if you don’t know the industry , all the tips and tricks , material properties , suppliers etc there is very little hope of competing against those that do unless you have some really nifty and compelling reason for customers to come to you. If you go the route a lot of folk go , being a lot cheaper than the competition , that is disastrous. All that will happen is that you will lose money and mess up the market.
What you want to do , depends on you and your skills
You can always do the research , spend some money on marketing and buy the equipment and do it part time.
You can do the same thing but NOT buy the equipment and do a deal with someone else with a cutter to supply the graphics , you apply or rig , design and build up a customer base and then buy equipment once it gathers some momentum.
Or you do the homework and can jump in boots and all into the deep end , give up the job , and go all out. (often the pressure of having to make a living makes one lean and hungry and might really spur you on work like a dog to make a go of it)
The WORST boss to work for is yourself , you are going to have to be a creative genius , a super salesperson , a rep , an applicator , an technical expert , an accountant , a debt collector etc.
Apart from anything else , the traditional vinyl cutting market is being eroded by the fact that print and cut machines are dropping in price and smaller ones are now quite affordable , albeit there is and will always be a demand for straight cut vinyl , it is not a fast expanding market.
The decision to give it all up and jump right in is a pretty big one , its not just about starting a business , its a lifestyle change and you really have to look at where you want to be in , lets say , 5 yrs time. It not only involves you , but your whole family.
However , I must say , I don’t think 200 quid a week is a great salary and if you do have a creative bent , I don’t think warehousing/retail is the best use of your talents.
So to cut to the quick , my advice is to go the route where you don’t buy the equipment , but do the marketing and research and if things start working out , all good and well , and if they don’t , you wont lose your shirt.
There are a huge amount of web resources available to learn the trade , most big sign supply houses have FAQ’s and tutorials , boards like this and others , a zillion design tips and tricks sites.
Go to other sign Co’s websites and see what they doing to give you ideas etc. A few months doing this can give you a pretty good head start.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do and I’m sure you can rely on the members here to help.

[Mike Fear]

Good luck if you do go for it, but a few things to watch in keeping with what the others have mentioned :

You mention you are OK at doing graphics, but not what sort – I know a lot of people who call themselves graphic designers because they can use Photopaint, but have no clue with Vector graphics. JPEG logos are useless if you are doing cut vinyl. A major skill you will need is the ability to design in Vector formats, and convert existing printed or JPEG logos to Vector accurately – if a builder comes in with his letterhead and says they want that 1m wide for their van, you’re going to be stuck.

For the first few months trading, expect to earn pretty much nothing – you may get the odd job here and there but unless you are opening a high street showroom and running TV ads, you wont get much work until word of mouth gets around. Work out if you can afford to live for 6 months with no income at all.

£200 for a van seems good, but reckon on £75 if you’re lucky for basic work, a new sign shop has opened local to me and this is their base rate they are charging 🙄 . Unless you plan to go straight into full vehicle wraps and printed graphics, your market in the beginning will be all the tightwads who want it all as cheap as possible.

The flipside of this though is that as you wont be busy, you can spend more time on the logo design etc… and give the customers a really good job, which will help build your rep.

Start up costs, assuming you have a good PC already – bank on around £2000 – £3000 minimum if you’re going to work from home just doing cut vinyl van signs.

Like most businesses, a lot of people look at sign and graphic work and think ‘I can do that, its easy money’ – they are generally the ones who end up back on a factory line within a year 😥

But… dont let this put you off at all 😀 If you are sensible, and most of all REALISTIC then you have every chance of making a living, you have a head start as you have managed to live on a crap wage already, so while the business builds you wont miss not having the money.

[PhilB]

Well I have gone and done it, spoke to Neil from Graphtec today, mentioned UK Signboards and ordered a ce3000-60.

I’m planning on doing some simple van work and going into t shirts for the spring.

Thanks to everyone for their words of encouragement and support.

Phil

[Robert Lambie]

congrats on your purchase mate, im sure you will be more than happy with it.
no stopping you now, look forward to seeing your work once you find your feet. 😉

[Andy Gorman]

Buying a new and decent quality plotter means you are obviously serious about this. I wish you luck, and am sure that you will not regret it. It’s a good life once you get going. Bloody hard work, but fun. Keep asking all the questions you want; every one will help as best they can.

[Bill Dewison]

Great news Phil, really looking forward to seeing some of your work on the boards! 😀

Cheers, Dewi

[Nicola McIntosh]

i wish you all the best also phil!! 😀

i hope it all goes well!! 😛

Nik

[Carrie Brown]

Congrats on your purchase Phil and Good Luck, look forward to seeing future work.

Carrie 😀

[autosign]

Have you got the space and ability to produce and fit fascia signage aswell? I would be very worried about just doing vehicle livery. What if a customer wants a sign for his shop or unit?

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote autosign:

Have you got the space and ability to produce and fit fascia signage aswell? I would be very worried about just doing vehicle livery. What if a customer wants a sign for his shop or unit?

is your best friend called ‘outline’? 😀

oh…had to ask!! 😉

Nik

[Peter Normington]

well said nik
signage is so infinitley varied, there is (stand to be corrected) probably no one on these boards who can say they are experts in every aspect.
Everyone has to start somewhere, and learn as they go along.
Peter

[Andy Gorman]

Actually Peter, I am an expert in everything…..no, not really.

But I do think that it would be a good idea for Phil to find out as much as he can about a few of the likely requests that will be made of him. For example, vehicle graphics are an obvious one; aluminium framed fascia signs are a definite; window graphics; pavement signs. These are probably the most common requests I get as a single, general sign geezer. I think Phil should check out all the demos on here that relate to these products until he feels confident that he can source and supply them when necessary.

If you think you are only going to do van graphics and t shirts, you will be turning away and putting off a lot of potential business.

[Nicola McIntosh]

😮

[Bill Dewison]

Humble opinion, but I reckon Phil is just after a starting point and as he builds in confidence, will most probably include more aspects of the sign world in his reper… reportw….repertai… oh bugger it, his skill set or whatever! (Damn I wish I could spell!!!)

Could be wrong, but if you think about it, most of us start out in a similar way.. or at least I did. You expect you’ll be doing a certain type of work more than others so you gear yourself up for that type of work. Then once you have a customer and they ask you for this and that, you either adapt or buy in… its more money in the kitty at the end of the week (I don’t actually put money in my cat before anyone says :lol1: )

Cheers, Dewi

[Peter Normington]

Was going to reply on similar lines but dewi even with bad spelin beet.. beat.. bate me to it
peter

[Andy Gorman]

Yeah fair do’s. But, you can never be too prepared. I’m just trying to think the way I would be if I was venturing into an unknown occupation. I would want to find out as much as I could, or at least find out what the very basic necessary skills were. So far Phil hasn’t asked a single practical question. Of course, we all pick up new stuff as we go along.

Nik, why the bug eyes?

[Peter Normington]

big g

the practical questions will come later, Im sure. If philb wants to swim, he will,
Peter

[Peter Normington]

we never say no, Just panic how we are going to do it after the customer has gone out the door!
Peter

[Nicola McIntosh]

😮 😮 😉

nik

[Andy Gorman]

Peter, yeah I expect so. And I will be happy to help if I can when that time comes. I just remember about a year ago, a blonde Northern Jessie came on here and asked questions left right and centre because he was thinking of starting a sign shop. I’m just a bit concerned that Phil has gone from asking whether you really can make 200 squids from a van livery to buying a plotter in no time at all. The general pattern I have noticed on this site with people in this position is that they spend a few weeks (at least) asking all sorts of questions and then make the decision to go for it. Like Jill said earlier in the thread “You can’t just plug in a plotter and watch the bucks roll in”. Or something like that. 🙂

Anyway, I feel as though I have become a doubting Andrew here. Far from it. I expect Phil to be a signmaking guru millionaire within the year.
Shame he’s a northener though.

Nik keeps winking at me, I think she fancies me. Can’t really blame her.

Nik, 😉 😉

[Peter Normington]

Nowt wrong with norterners lad , born an bred i am. son of a ard graftin miner. if thy ever does owt fer nowt do it for yerself.
Peter

[Andy Gorman]

Yeah that’s right Peter…..uh? (Get’s out English to Northerner phrasebook) If one ever does anything for nothing, do it for oneself.

[Bill Dewison]

But thats the whole point Andy, I did ask alot of questions and its all archived. If someone, like Phil, wanted to go back through them, the questions they may have asked could well have been answered way back when I thought you looked like Jeremy Clarkson 😉

I wanted to dip my hand in every pie when I first started out, and I still like to try new stuff when I get the chance, but I’ve developed a style and method of working that works for me. I got my plotter a good 3-4 weeks before I opened my shop and started getting customers, and in that time I think I may have clocked about 300 posts on uksb, but thats because I’m me. *hair* Not afraid to ask, not afraid to have a go at anything once (provided it doesn’t involve a flock of sheep, a pack of chewing gum and a bottle of baby oil 😮 )

When and if Phil needs some help, he’ll give us all a shout 😀 Can’t wait to see what he comes up with to be honest… its got to be one of the top things I like about UKSB, seeing ppl try new things and seeing the results!

Cheers, Dewi

[John Singh]

Well done Phil – You’ve taken the initial plunge
Looks like you’re real serious about this

Like everybody has said there will be those weeks when you think: ‘Hey! This is easy peasy’ 😀 and there will be those where you might ask: ‘Am I in the right game?’ 🙁

You have to soldier on

It’ll come to you eventually

Look forward to seeing some of your stuff

John 😀

[Andy Gorman]

Quote “Can’t wait to see what he comes up with to be honest… ”

My point exactly. I’ve been waiting for him to start asking all those questions we all ask when we start out. Maybe he has another source of information or maybe he’s spent the last coupla weeks reading every post on here and finding out what’s involved. Either way, it don’t matter really; he has access to a load of bods who are only too willing to help out. I don’t know why I started this really.

That reminds me, I must get a haircut…..Jeremy bloody Clarkson indeed!

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote big G:

Nik keeps winking at me, I think she fancies me. Can’t really blame her.
Nik, 😉 😉

woooh……..andy, flattery will get you know where!! 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 i will still wink, because i’ve never understood that phrase anyway!! 😉

Nik 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

[John Singh]

I think that’s interesting what Jeremy has said:

I don’t think he has asked any of ‘those sort of questions’! Certainly not as persistent as Widget 😉

John 😀

[Bill Dewison]

quote big G:

I don’t know why I started this really.

Its Friday and its argumentative night :lol1: Or lets blame it on the North/South divide… ie North is cool, and South is, well, not (spin)

Blood would boil with 2 words though…. and one of them is ‘Wage’ 😉

Cheers, Dewi

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Don’t knock the baby oil till you’ve tried it Dewi! 😉
(it’s also good for removing paint from your hands
and oiling your brushes!)
Love……Jill

[John Singh]

What’s the other word Dewi?

[Bill Dewison]

Not the baby oil I object to (its actually quite good 🙄 )

It the combo between the sheep, the baby oil and the chewing gum… it can cause havoc, especially when you’re trying to watch a rerun of Red Dwarf :lol1:

Cheers, Dewi

[John Singh]

quote Jillbeans:

Don’t knock the baby oil till you’ve tried it Dewi! 😉
(it’s also good for removing paint from your hands
and oiling your brushes!)
Love……Jill

Just shows you what they put in Mascara

[Andy Gorman]

Actually, Dew, I blame it on Messrs Stella and Artois.

I tell you what: what if Phil gets, like, a ton of work and has to employ a teenaged assistant. What would be the minimu……..nothing.

This is becoming a silly post. 😛

[Jill Marie Welsh]

I’ve heard that those who deal with sheep get very soft hands due to the lanolin in the wool. No need for baby oil there.
Unless the sheep is recalcitrant.
But that’s what the spare boot is for.
I can see the dangers of adding chewing gum to the mix.
Just buy the sheep a plotter, it can be a sign maker too!
No need for spelling even as long as it knows
red all-caps Brush Script in an arc.
Love…..jill

[John Singh]

No I’m not going to ask:
Oh alright: What do you mean Incalcitrent

(Town dweller)

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Recalcitrant=stubborn, unwilling to change, etc.
(kinda like an old-school signpainter like myself)
Love…..Jill

[Andy Gorman]

Interesting…..we’ve gone from ‘should I buy a plotter?’ to stubborn ungulates in 3 pages. Now THAT is what the internet was invented for. 😀

[John Singh]

I thought it was the military who started the internet Jeremy

[Bill Dewison]

:lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: and….

http://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=8211

Cheers, Dewi

[Andy Gorman]

That’s right John. Sometime in the sixties, believe it or not. About the same time your avatar picture was taken…….

Rob, sort this thread out. It’s gone pear shaped again. I think Dewi started it.

[Bill Dewison]

Haven’t you got a new Skoda to review or something Andy? :lol1:

Cheers, Dewi

[John Singh]

I must get that picture updated

(Make sure I slip me teeth in for the new piccy)

[Carrie Brown]

:lol1: :lol1: :lol1: you lot are mad!!!!

[Bill Dewison]

Aye up! Its Carrie at nearly 2am!! 😮 Shovels at the ready :lol1:

Cheers, Dewi

[John Singh]

Shovels: Why whats she going to say this time

[Andy Gorman]

Aaah, the new Skoda. It handles……LIKE A TANK!

Happy now?

Now I have to drive a Land Rover up a Scottish mountain for no reason whatsoever. Oh, and rave about a 250,000 squids Ferrari that no twat could afford.

[Bill Dewison]

Careful John, when she’s not stroking avatars, she’s fontspotting!! 😮 😮

Cheers, Dewi

[Carrie Brown]

:lol1: I have a way with words, what can I say 😛 Im lucky to have such a natural and special gift 😛

Carrie 😀

[John Singh]

I understand you have a way with mice and avatars as well

John

[Carrie Brown]

quote Dewi:

Careful John, when she’s not stroking avatars, she’s fontspotting!! 😮 😮

Cheers, Dewi

:lol1: Oi!!! I would like to just make it clear that I am not a stroking or poking fontspotter, honest!!! :lol1: Anyway, I dont stroke, I poke them, well I dont poke them often I might add, when I poked you it was a one off, Im not a viscious person :lol1:

Carrie … 😀 I have had a drink, not an excuse but I know Im going to read this tomorrow and wilt 😕 Oh well not the first or last I bet 😛

[Andy Gorman]

Blimey, I spend the first hour of every day editing the posts I’ve made the night before on various boards in a p1ssed up state. It’s a hobby of mine.

[John Singh]

Sorry Carrie:

I don’t believe you

Whilst writing my last post I distinctly felt a poke in my eye

What other stuff do you practise on the lonely country farms?

John

[Carrie Brown]

John, what do you mean mice? … sorry if im being slow … am i going to wish i never asked this? :lol1:

Carrie 😀

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Are mice anything like sheep? 😮 Love….Jill

[Carrie Brown]

:lol1: Big G …. nice hobby

[John Singh]

Not really Jill
We leave cheese out for them
They don’t like baby oil

[Carrie Brown]

and theres the size difference Jill 😀

[John Singh]

And of course the size as Carrie quite rightly says:

Carrie: Twas not me: Twas him: Dewi that did reference to mice
Twas him that said you were adept at poking and stroking with a mouse

[Carrie Brown]

Oh my apologies my dear John 😛 :lol1: I should have known it would be the resident nutter starting all this 😉

Carrie 😛

[John Singh]

Now I can sleep
Safe in the knowledge that the blame has been left squarely at the ‘nutter’s’ door

Anyway! What are you like with an egg whisk?

[Carrie Brown]

:point: an egg whisk??? I dont use one I just whisk vigorously with a fork.

Robs going to have to do a bit of deleting tomorrow (ooops, but it is Dewi’s fault if you need to point the blame) :lol1: 😉 way off topic with this lot!! sorry for my bits!

[Bill Dewison]

:dance2:

Cheers, Dewi

[John Singh]

Off Topic!
You’re right!
What was the thread about again?

Sorry Phil: Not a lot of help are we?

[PhilB]

Hi Guys

You lot were up late last night!

Thanks for the support.

I’m working from home and currently have no van, so to keep start up costs down I thought i’d do car/van livery and T-shirts. Who knows, 6 months down the line and I have built up a bit of name and think the business can afford to run a van then i will invest and start offering larger signage.

As for not asking questions, most of the my questions have already been answered in the old posts. I’ve been to a fellow signmaker to see his set up and he’s shown me some vinyl which had been cut and weeded (I didn’t know what weeded meant, but wasnt gonna make myself look stupid by asking lol) and explained how he makes the fascias for above the shops.

When the machine arrives and the software is set up (illustrator) no doubt ‘ll be asking specific questions when problems arrive.

I will keep you all informed lol

Phil

[Andy Gorman]

Good stuff Phil. I don’t have a van, don’t need one. When I can’t get it on the roof rack or in the car I hire a van and charge to the job.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Phil,
“Weeding” is the REALLY FUN part,
where you get to peel away what’s left
of the vynull after you’ve cut the letters.
Yay!
There are some questions in here somewhere
about how to weed. Afterwards you may want to
SMOKE weed! :crazy:
Next step is masking!
Love…..Jill