-
The age old noob question – what plotter to buy?
Hi all,
I know you’ve probably heard this one before, so apologies in advance.
Me and my colleague (both currently Fastsigns employees) are soon to set up on our own. We need a plotter and need to know where best to splash the cash. With any luck, the machine will get regular work, and we need something that will cut to at least a metre.
I know it’s a toss-up between the Chinese stuff or something second-hand, as it seems to be in a lot of trades, but any advice would be most grateful.
Thanks in advance,
Jim
-
51 Replies
-
Hi Jim
There have been so many thread for the same question. The general consensus is to steer clear of the chinese and buy the best you can afford whether it be second user or new. I believe you can get a Graphtec for less than £1000 now which if you are serious about the business is very little, especially split between 2 people.Hope that this helps.
Cheers
Gary
-
Well said Gary…
Right,
I know this is difficult NOW (as I found when I started out) but if you spend approx £1100 (total) on a Graphtec you will have a machine that should work for years without a problem leaving you free to earn the money! £1100 may seem like alot NOW but you should get that back with the first half a dozen or so (less if you are lucky) jobs, so try to think of those jobs as never having happened and the machine being free. See, easy, isn’t it?
The chinese ones (I bought one myself – 2 years excellent service then nothing) may cost less and I must have been lucky, many folk have BIG problems (although many don’t). How much less do they cost though in the BIG picture. You are probably hoping to be self employed for years and years so, believe me, in two or three years time this £1100 or so investment will seem like a drop in the ocean. And the Graphtec should be still going (quite quietly) strong.
In hindsight I would have stuck my neck out and initially bought a Graphtec and not a chinese one. The chinese one never gave me any problems but I always had that feeling of ‘what if’. What if it fails in the middle of a big job which has to be out that same afternoon? Granted, the Graphtec could also fail but it is HIGHLY unlikely to do so.
Also the chinese plotter’s instructions included the line ‘…be sure to position the quack….’. I’ll leave you to decide what to make of that.
Good luck with your decision.
Gareth
-
quote Gareth Lewis:Also the chinese plotter’s instructions included the line ‘…be sure to position the quack….’. I’ll leave you to decide what to make of that.
Good luck with your decision.
Gareth
Just wondering what you made of it Gareth…. how exactly does the welsh mind work?? 😉
Cheers
Gary
-
Gary,
I tried and tried and tried to position the quack but I couldn’t find the quack anywhere so decided to phone the telephone support to enquire about the location of the quack but they didn’t appear to know what I was talking about. I still to this day have no idea what a quack is, where it is to be positioned or how. Strangely the day my machine finally died it let out an enormous QUACK! then fell silent.
Perhaps there was a tiny chinese duck in there all that time feasting on bits of paper and dust and carpet while furiously pulling strings and levers. Poor thing….
No seriously I chucked the instructions and muddled through. Tch!
Gareth
ps my welsh mind doesn’t work I just wake up every morning and hope for the best. So far, so good…
-
:lol1: :lol1: :lol1:
-
I’m surprised at getting that question from Fastsigns employees. I would have thought that somebody already involved in the business would know the answer already.
But anyway…….
As my learned colleagues say above – pay the extra and get a good reputable make. Your cutter will be the mainstay of your business and, in relation to what it will earn for you, will be ridiculously cheap.
OK, fair enough, my business is established, but I would regard a thousand pound cutter as a consumable item. If it only lasts the life of it’s two year warranty then expires completely it would have only cost a tenner a week. We spend more than that on coffee, tea and biscuits.
In reality, something like a Graphtec, Roland, Mimaki etc will give many years of good service and the cost of ownership will be negligable. Why scrimp?
-
I agree with everything John has said. Reading the different posts it would appear cheap cutters will you more frustration than saved money.
Alan D -
Cheers all.
As you say, I should know this already – just wanted to make sure!
So where’s the place to buy a Graphtech then? The problem with my boss is that he runs the place like it’s the only sign makers in the country, so outside influences are few and far between! We have a Fastsigns forum which is ok, but not entirely unbiased. I think the quality of info on here is much better and more impartial.
Cheers again,
Jim
-
Graphtecs are sold by ……. wait for it …… Graphtec!
in Wrexham, North Wales
01978 666700
Good luck!
Gareth
-
quote Gareth Lewis:Graphtecs are sold by ……. wait for it …… Graphtec!
I’m not sure that they are Gareth. Do they sell to the end user, or do you have to buy from one of their distributors? Like Impact for instance?
😀
-
Hi John,
Um, I bought mine from Graphtec.
I dealt with a very nice chap called Neil.
At least I think I did. Now I’m not at all sure. I need a holiday.
Gareth
-
What with Rabbit cutters and machines that quack is the firm that makes these things on a farm in China.Next we’ll be getting the upgraded Chopstix model with the Chicken ball eye for countour cutting. 😀
-
I think Karl needs a holiday too. *rofl*
-
quote John Childs:I think Karl needs a holiday too. *rofl*
😀 😀 😀
-
guys, just do the maths on earning a wage vs buying the equipment then going in competition with your boss. Think carefully you don’t make a mistake, its a large outlay considering the industry is more print based now.
-
He only pays me and my mate (i’m sales, he’s graphic design/production) £14,650 a year. It’s not much of a risk for a wage as crappy as that. The job in photography that I left to start at Fastsigns would have been paying me more by now. Financially, it’s not worked out as I hoped.
As for the merits of being your own boss, well. We looked at a unit today and it was spot on. We’ve got savings so aren’t borrowing any money, so now’s the time I reckon. If we don’t do it now we never will…….
Jim
-
I’m not sure that I can agree with you Dave. Maybe it’s just my specific client base, but cut vinyl is still the mainstay of my business. A gut-feel figure would be over 90% cut and the rest print.
Good luck with it Jim.
-
John, I have no intention of starting that argument again.. just making sure Jim given it all serious thought before diving in.
-
What about this badboy then?
http://www.grafityp.co.uk/Plotters/plot … ma-132.htm
Aren’t GCC part of Gerber or something?
Cheers,
Jim
-
john have you still that nice graphtec for sale
-
quote Chris Wool:john have you still that nice graphtec for sale
Yup.
FC7000-130
😀
-
and a stunning bit of kit it is too, it would do well as a start up machine cos you wont be buying another one in a hurry.
i would buy it my self but i have one already
does that warrant 10% commission
😉chris
-
[quote="Chris Wooldoes that warrant 10% commission
😉 [/quote]It must do. 😀
-
quote Jim Croisdale:He only pays me and my mate (i’m sales, he’s graphic design/production) £14,650 a year. It’s not much of a risk for a wage as crappy as that. The job in photography that I left to start at Fastsigns would have been paying me more by now. Financially, it’s not worked out as I hoped.As for the merits of being your own boss, well. We looked at a unit today and it was spot on. We’ve got savings so aren’t borrowing any money, so now’s the time I reckon. If we don’t do it now we never will…….
Jim
Don’t take this the wrong way. but as you say HE ONLY PAYS 14650 PER YEAR. what you don’t say is he always pays £14650 per year, in 52 installments every week all year.
He ALSO PAYS
Electricity bill,
rates bill
Rent,
Vehicle,
Fuel,
Insurance ( Vehicle)
Insurance ( public)
Insurance (Employee)
Waste dumping etc.
Wastage of materials.
Sick days
PAYE
National Insurance
Non Paying CLIENTS
ETC
ETC
i could go on all day.
approx overheads for the above £55 per day operational.( this is being very Conservative probably near £85-100 depending on area etc but large enough to demonstrate what i want)No. of working days in a year approx 236 ( 365 – weekends(104) – holidays (25) )
14650 / 236 = £62 / day working.Average cut vinyl van for a start up company with no portfolio
say £150
– Materials £55
– overheads £55
– Wages £62
Profit £-22
the above doesn’t take into consideration that you to find at least 233 vans to signwrite per year, and you have to design them sell the idea etcYes i know you will say that there are other signs and stuff that you can also do, but i can assure you when you talk of savings, the day you start a business will be the last day that you have savings for a very long time.
After three years you may have built up a large enough client base that you will take home £14650 / year
I live in the country, where there is a wee saying ( the grass is always greener in the adjoining field).Every one here may think i’m being harsh, but it pi*ses me of so much to see people that think this is a money making racket. I started myself but was prepared to ride the storm and have measures in place to survive, after TEN years, I eventually have started to take a salary larger than any of my staff.
Good luck with what you do but, dont just look at a unit, look also at the figures.
-
Well I’m glad you said that Ian. Talk about living in a dream world.
Last time I took a proper wage was September ’06.
Karl.
-
was that when you started ?
-
No Ian. I increased my overheads and put everything I had into it after moving into the shop. Basically paying out most of your list. I’d be happy
taking 100 quid a week. 14 grand crap wages my @rse. 😕 -
well said ian, not forgetting that approx 5-15% of their profit goes back to the franshise/FastSigns for the privilage of being in their group, "after" paying £80,000 grand just for being held under their umbrella… 😕 (exact figures im unsure but they are there about, so please dont quote me)
anyway… buy the best you can afford, buy from a reputable company with after sales support. weather thats the bobcat or the graphtec, both come from reputable sources and both have very few, if any real complaints here on the boards.
back to your wage, please do not think i am having a pop. i am not. im all for the underdog doing what they can to get on in life, but dont think that because you "think" you are the best thing since sliced bread, that you are! i would be better with a revolving door on our premises the amount of folk that walk in telling me they are the brilliant, for them to last a few days and leave courtesy of a boot. if this is the first sign firm you have been with, then remember, your only as good as your teacher. (yeh some exceptions in the case, but thats not for you to decide).
be realistic guys… if you are as confident in your worth, you should already be cnsidering the best you can afford. do your sums, get into the bank and put your case to the bank manager. £800-£5000 is bugger all when you consider how many "properly" priced vans/signs it will take to pay that back…we have many newbies to the trade, some you can can see are in the right frame of mind to take on the role, some are simply kidding themselves… its upto you where you want to come in?
as for your currant employers… be respectful in what your doing, dont go shafting them just because you THINK your not being paid your due. go about it the right way or your potential customers will already be looking on you as untrustworthy.
as for ebay… your already kidding yourself to start there!
-
Not so long ago I remember there being a poll on here about the earnings of people on here. i think that this would make very interesting reading for quite a few people on here. I don`t remember the exact results but there was a large percentage who earned below crap wages mentioned here.
I have been going 5 years in September and only recently been taking a regular wage, that is instead of what the business can afford.
Like Ian said people always think that the grass is greener, what alot don`t realise is that it still needs mowing.
Just my take on things.
Gary
-
walking into the sign trade or any trade getting £15k or whatever… that doesn’t even mean you are worth that, law means we HAVE to pay minimum wages, even if the employee is a donkey. yeah sounds great to the employee, but when do you think the government will ever give the business owner a minimum wage? working for yourself, "my ar$e" we all work for the government!
as i said, this is not directed at you Jim and co… its just fact guys, facts you will both soon know about. trust me… -
I know my last post was deleted so let me put it another way. It always angers me when an employee stands there and says his wages are crap.
If you really knew what us "Gaffers" put ourselves through just to stay afloat I think you’d think twice about your comment earlier. -
quote Ian Johnston:quote Jim Croisdale:He only pays me and my mate (i’m sales, he’s graphic design/production) £14,650 a year. It’s not much of a risk for a wage as crappy as that. The job in photography that I left to start at Fastsigns would have been paying me more by now. Financially, it’s not worked out as I hoped.As for the merits of being your own boss, well. We looked at a unit today and it was spot on. We’ve got savings so aren’t borrowing any money, so now’s the time I reckon. If we don’t do it now we never will…….
Jim
Don’t take this the wrong way. but as you say HE ONLY PAYS 14650 PER YEAR. what you don’t say is he always pays £14650 per year, in 52 installments every week all year.
He ALSO PAYS
Electricity bill,
rates bill
Rent,
Vehicle,
Fuel,
Insurance ( Vehicle)
Insurance ( public)
Insurance (Employee)
Waste dumping etc.
Wastage of materials.
Sick days
PAYE
National Insurance
Non Paying CLIENTS
ETC
ETC
i could go on all day.
approx overheads for the above £55 per day operational.( this is being very Conservative probably near £85-100 depending on area etc but large enough to demonstrate what i want)No. of working days in a year approx 236 ( 365 – weekends(104) – holidays (25) )
14650 / 236 = £62 / day working.Average cut vinyl van for a start up company with no portfolio
say £150
– Materials £55
– overheads £55
– Wages £62
Profit £-22
the above doesn’t take into consideration that you to find at least 233 vans to signwrite per year, and you have to design them sell the idea etcYes i know you will say that there are other signs and stuff that you can also do, but i can assure you when you talk of savings, the day you start a business will be the last day that you have savings for a very long time.
After three years you may have built up a large enough client base that you will take home £14650 / year
I live in the country, where there is a wee saying ( the grass is always greener in the adjoining field).Every one here may think i’m being harsh, but it pi*ses me of so much to see people that think this is a money making racket. I started myself but was prepared to ride the storm and have measures in place to survive, after TEN years, I eventually have started to take a salary larger than any of my staff.
Good luck with what you do but, dont just look at a unit, look also at the figures.
this post should be printed on the box of every Rabbit cutter sold on Ebay!! Well put Ian. 😀 (In Futura Black)
-
I think Ians sums dont quite add up, (they seem to be based on just one employee but with overheads that could sustain several) I do however agree with the sentiments.
My advice for what it worth, working for yourself is not a bed of roses, but should give you better earnings than being employed, if it dosnt after the first year or so, then pack it in, and go back and work for someone else.
My philosophy, if you cant earn a decent wage by being employed, you probably wont earn a good wage working for yourself,
Peter
-
That depends on your overheads Peter. The norm so they say is 3 years and most business people I speak to say the same. Two reasons in my opinion….first it can take 3 years to break even due to paying borrowed money back……secondly knowing your trade is one thing, Knowing how to run a business is another and it takes time to learn the second one.
-
quote Karl Williams:That depends on your overheads Peter. The norm so they say is 3 years and most business people I speak to say the same. Two reasons in my opinion….first it can take 3 years to break even due to paying borrowed money back……secondly knowing your trade is one thing, Knowing how to run a business is another and it takes time to learn the second one.
Karl, again we have different opinions,
First of all I would never recommend borrowing to start a business, In reality it is hard to borrow unless you are prepared to put up some form of collateral anyway.(in effect using your own money)
Even a start up business must be able to sustain the drawings, fairly quickly, otherwise you would be on a hiding to nothing.
As a new start, overheads should be in keeping with your turnover/profit margin.
So don’t commit to large overheads unless you can justify them.
If your overheads are high, you need to re-think how your business operates.again just my opinion
Peter
-
quote Peter Normington:I think Ians sums dont quite add up, (they seem to be based on just one employee but with overheads that could sustain several)
But isn’t that the case for most people Peter?
Isn’t overcapacity is the norm for most of us? It will be especially so for a new business who doesn’t have a regular customer base yet.
How many here have a cutter that is running eight hours a day? Not me.
Printer ditto
Our fitting bay is not always occupied.Obviously there are limits, but if we were to run at maximum capacity all the time it would eliminate our ability to fit in important rush jobs at short notice.
Karl, borrowed money has nothing to do with profitability. It doesn’t matter if it is never paid back provided the business has the interest payments well covered. In fact a perfect business should be able make a profit using somebody else’s money.
-
Thats not quite what I meant John,
overheads can be optimised by sharing them between more people, who individually or as a group should all be earning a profit for the company.
Peter -
John I never said borrowed money had anything to do with profitability.
All i’m trying to get across is when you borrow money which most do coupled with every other overhead at the start, Plain sailing is a long way off.
Peter I don’t promote borrowing either. But many of us have to.
And no I don’t agree with taking a wage straight away. any money the business owes you as lost wages or drawings should be written off. These guys are complaining about only being on 14 grand a year.
Do they expect to earn more from the start. The are very naive if they are assuming they will. -
Karl, yeah you did. You said, "it can take 3 years to break even due to paying borrowed money"
Break even doesn’t depend on paying back borrowed money – rather the ability to pay the cost of borrowing it.
Wherever it comes from – money costs. We either have to pay interest on it or, if our own funds, forego the interest we could have received on it.
Peter, that’s right, but extra people can only come when the level of business justifies their employment. In the meantime the cost of a cutter (and everything else) has do be justified by Jim’s output alone.
I’m trying to remember how long it took me to get to the point when there were three of us working here and, although I can’t remember exactly, it was a lot longer than three years.
-
quote Peter Normington:I think Ians sums dont quite add up, (they seem to be based on just one employee but with overheads that could sustain several) I do however agree with the sentiments.
My advice for what it worth, working for yourself is not a bed of roses, but should give you better earnings than being employed, if it dosnt after the first year or so, then pack it in, and go back and work for someone else.
My philosophy, if you cant earn a decent wage by being employed, you probably wont earn a good wage working for yourself,
Peter
Sorry Peter but if there is one thing i have learned in this business it sums.,
The below is based on the facts presented by JIM.He and his mate are starting therefore 2 No. employees, He is SALES, MATE DESIGN & APPLICATION. £62 x 2 = £124
SALES= VAN + Diesel. minimum Deprecitation £2000/ year = £8.50/ day Fuel (Renault traffic 35mpg sales 25000miles per annum 714 gallons per year at approx 105p per litre ( 714 x4.55 x105p = £ 3411 / 236 = £14.45 per dayMATE/partner = ( you’ve got one so i need one) 2nd van + Diesel minimum Deprecitation £2000/ year = £8.50/ day Fuel (Renault traffic 35mpg sales 25000miles per annum 714 gallons per year at approx 105p per litre ( 714 x4.55 x105p = £ 3411 / 236 = £14.45 per day( i will however leave this one out as my figures will be high enough to demonstrate.
Unit that Jim has been looking at, I assume a resonable size. £ 85 / week = £17 a day, ( actually £18.72 but i don’t want to get into that argument of holidays)
rates bill £1100 approx = £4.66Cutter ( 100% write off after 2 years the rest a bonus) £1350 / £2.86 per day
Electricity bill, £ 2.25 per day
Insurance ( Vehicle) £ 450 = £1.90
Insurance ( public) £ 750 = £ 3.17
Insurance (Employee/ personal) 2 No. £750 each ( to cover a £15000 wage) = £ 6.36
Waste dumping etc. £650- £1200 = £2.75
Wastage of materials. ( we’ll assume they are genius’s so no wastage)
Sick days ( immortal )
PAYE ( dont pay it)
National Insurance ( what’s it)
Non Paying CLIENTS ( never , no-one would do that!!!)ETC
ETCI stopped counting and got sarcastic at the last few as i was only half way through my list when i hit £55 / per DAY + wages as i give in my first post.
In my first post i didn’t even include that ther is infact 2 people trying to get a wage , so therfore deficite of £-84 / day.
It might look as though people just come walking through the door and no matter how good a sales guy jim is , he still only has a limited production capability.I just wish others would sitdown and take a close look at what there business actually costs.
Yes i know they may well do more that one van in a day, but they may also sit on there ass for a day too. if over there first few years they average 236 van a year they have a good base to work that it takes a long time to get money out of this or ANY business, and £15000 a Year is not a CRAPPY WAGE.
-
Wow! That’s me told isn’t it?
I get the figures for the unit tomorrow – I’ll show you my sums when I get those. You can shoot holes in them too! (:)
I work damn hard for my current wage, and I am infinitely grateful for everything I have learned from my boss (and I WOULD NOT be seeking to steal his customers!) but I still can’t help feeling that I’d rather be working for myself. Sorry if I sounded ungratefull.
Jim
PS – How much for the Graphtec John?
-
quote Jim Croisdale:but I still can’t help feeling that I’d rather be working for myself.Jim – If you’ve got the gumption to do it then go for it. You only get one life. No point in looking back in 10 or 20 years time and saying I had my chance then, why didn’t I go for it. You may well fail or succeed – that is entirely down to you and your partner. It’s better to have tried and failed then to never have tried at all.
All the advice offered is genuine good advice. It’s very very difficult to make a decent living in your first few years trading. A wage of 14K isn’t bad when you consider it is given to you without any risk on your part.
However, if you are one of those with a burning ambition to determine your own future then working for yourself is immensely rewarding.
Good luck 😀
-
quote Jim Croisdale:Wow! That’s me told isn’t it?I get the figures for the unit tomorrow – I’ll show you my sums when I get those. You can shoot holes in them too! (:)
I work damn hard for my current wage, and I am infinitely grateful for everything I have learned from my boss (and I WOULD NOT be seeking to steal his customers!) but I still can’t help feeling that I’d rather be working for myself. Sorry if I sounded ungratefull.
Jim
PS – How much for the Graphtec John?
Jim, good luck with the new venture. And get the best cutter you can afford. John’s machine is well worth a look. If you buy it you will not need another Vinyl Cutter for many years. We have customers with Graphtec machines that are 15 years old & still going strong. The extra width will surely come in very handy too.
-
quote Jim Croisdale:Wow! That’s me told isn’t it?
I get the figures for the unit tomorrow – I’ll show you my sums when I get those. You can shoot holes in them too! (:)
I work damn hard for my current wage, and I am infinitely grateful for everything I have learned from my boss (and I WOULD NOT be seeking to steal his customers!) but I still can’t help feeling that I’d rather be working for myself. Sorry if I sounded ungratefull.
Jim
PS – How much for the Graphtec John?
Jim i’m not shooting you down because you want to start, it was the fact that you thought £15000 a year was crap. it takes a lot of work to earn that from signmaking, with a zero client base,
If it’s in your heart and you have done the figures realistically then go for it. -
Jim, as a couple of posters have said above, nobody is trying to ridicule you, or even to dissuade you from starting out on your own. All the advice given is done with the best of intentions to try to ensure that you go into self employment with both eyes wide open and aware of as many of the pitfalls as possible.
One other thing has crossed my mind….
A lot of people start in this business by doing it in their spare time whilst continuing to work at their day job, and only going full time when they are sure of a reasonably steady level of customers. As you are already working for a sign company that option isn’t open to you without breaking the terms of your contract of employment or, if your contract says nothing about it, at least being guilty of gross misconduct.
It’ll be sink or swim for you I’m afraid. 😀
-
Jim,
As Some have said above, Just don’t be blinded by the money your boss maybe making. it always looks easy when you work for someone else but you don’t see the other side until you take the plunge yourself. Yes 15 grand and more is achievable but as said above it won’t happen overnight.
Good luck lads. -
Cheers guys – I know all advice is with the best intentions.
We’re not going into it with our eyes closed, and we certainly don’t expect to make £15k each in our first year. I’m quite uniquely placed at the moment for doing all this I think. I’ve moved back home so bills are pretty much nil (all washing done too…), I have no debt, no kids, no wife, and pennies in the bank. I know it’s not everything, but that’s got to be a good thing, right?
Anyway, you’ll be hearing a lot more from me on here I’m sure. My mate Rick is already telling people -"He won’t have a s*** without asking the forum first……" 😛
Cheers for now,
Jim
P.S. – John – I’m looking at the costing for the plotter and will let you know if we can stretch that far……
-
As long as you don’t expect to really earn much for 1-2 years and don’t go for the silly pricing like some start-ups do you should be ok.
But you do have to be realistic. A sign place opened up at the back of our small estate last year and they have gone already after barely 6 months.
-
It takes guts to do what you are planning.
I think the fact that you are asking all these question and replying in a gracious manner stands you in good stead.
Go for it 😀
-
I wonder if any of you lot have left employment in the sign trade to start up on your own? What do you think the chances of staying on good terms with my current boss are? I don’t intend on stealing any of his customers and would even expect to put some trade his way. I don’t want to fall out with him – not really in my nature.
Jim
-
I’ve not done what you describe, but I have had a couple of people leave me and are now self employed vinyl fitters. I get on well with them, and willingly give them work when I have it available.
Those two apart, all my ex-employees have gone on to better things. A couple of examples, the unemployed recently divorced lady who I took on as a book-keeper who left me to become office manager for a large confectionery company at twice the money I was paying her. Then there was the £3.50 an hour hospital car park attendant who, after a couple of years with me, left for an £8.50 and hour job with a national sign company.
Although it is inconvenient to lose any employee, and have to go to the aggravation of finding and training a replacement, I have absolutely nothing against anybody wanting to better themselves. In fact I get a warm glow from knowing that in those two cases, and many others, I have helped them improve their lot in life.
Anybody who expects to keep an employee forever is being unrealistic.
Your chances of staying on good terms with your current employer depend totally on his attitude. If he’s like me then no problem. On the other hand there are a lot of people who would take the hump and want nothing to do with ex-employees whom they regard as traitorous snakes in the grass. You know the man and are therefore the only ones likely to know which way he will jump.
Log in to reply.