Rastek H650 Hybrid flatbed – personal advice please

[Nick Grandf]

Hi Bill,

Could you share which one did you buy and why ?

[David Rowland]

well i have an agfa with white ink and I will say if you "have" a demand to use white ink weekly then fine, but if u dont then the m2 will be a better buy.

[Nick Grandf]

quote Dave Rowland:

well i have an agfa with white ink and I will say if you “have” a demand to use white ink weekly then fine, but if u dont then the m2 will be a better buy.

Can you please elaborate?

[David Rowland]

if u print a lot of items that are needing white then go for it… if not .. not worth it.

The maintenance involved with trying to keep the white ink from drying in the heads is a lot, the reason why I needed white was "just in case i need to print white" but it spends most of the time being not used but that just causes damaged.

Also, if u leave flush in the white heads while you are not using the ink, u can have a random droplet onto the print, which damages ur print if u cannot wipe it quick enough.

The CMYK side to the printer is best I have seen, but the white is terrible but many printers also suffer from the dificulties in printing with this ink.

[Nick Grandf]

My idea was not to install white at all and go with CMYK Lc Lm. On the other hand it supposedly makes the printer use more ink (up to 30% more)…I agree white may be not worth it.

Did you notice a bit of "haze" around black fine text ? My impression is the black ink with this printer doesn’t get cured completely.

The FB500 quality of prints (fine text etc.) is miles behind Oce Arizona. Don’t know about M2 though.

[Bill Giannas]

Hi Nick,
Havent actually settled on one at the moment but the H650 looks like the forerunner purely on price. Around $15K AUS cheaper than the Agfa and about 50K cheaper that the HP FB500.
Will be going to do some test printing this week and finally put it all to rest (I hope). I will post the outcomes and views once we know.

[Nick Grandf]

After reading all these Rasterprint/Rastek horror stories, I wouldn’t trust rastek’s built quality even if they wanted to pay me to take it.

So far Durst Omega seem like what FB500 should have been. Grayscale Ricoh Gen4 printheads, magnetic linear drive, good ink chemistry, and it is Durst…unfortunately, it way too much $$$.

[Bill Giannas]

quote NickGrandf:

After reading all these Rasterprint/Rastek horror stories, I wouldn’t trust rastek’s built quality even if they wanted to pay me to take it.

So far Durst Omega seem like what FB500 should have been. Grayscale Ricoh Gen4 printheads, magnetic linear drive, good ink chemistry, and it is Durst…unfortunately, it way too much $$$.

Yes I know what you mean but Rastek apparently is no longer and EFI bought the company and have changed the name to Vutek, thats how I think the story goes. Plus I have been given a money back guarantee on the machine.

[Nick Grandf]

If they give you money back guarantee (written in paper) then go for it.
Nothing to loose, right?

How much exactly is this H652? Here they want 97000 euro. Not exactly the cheapest printer.

[Bill Giannas]

Thats what I figured, money back is all good.. The 652 is around the $110 AUS mark which is just under the new Agfa machine price which sells for $128K

[Nick Grandf]

quote Bill Giannas:

Thats what I figured, money back is all good.. The 652 is around the $110 AUS mark which is just under the new Agfa machine price which sells for $128K

H650 seems relatively cheap. Why not H650 ?

[Mark Latchford]

Definetley pick the Agfa Anapurna M2 quality is superb and it’s one of the fastest around. Good for production runs as well.

[Alex Var.]

Hi,
we purchased an EFI RASTEK H650 last year and we keep replacing print heads on it, we can’t keep up with it.
is anyone else having the same problem out there.

we know the heads are failing because the techs keep coming back and try different things to the old head but the only thin that fixes it is replacing the print heads.

HELP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thanks

[Alex Var.]

Hi,
did you ever manage to get it upgraded? we have an H650 that keeps needing print heads replaced and we can’t keep up with it. and these things cost about $3000 each (not the cheapest).

any updates are much appreciated.

thanks

[David Rowland]

why replacing heads? must be a reason. We have a little trouble with one of the heads but on top of any blockages as soon as we see it.

Does light scatter into the head area too much? is that the problem?

With regards my white ink comment… it is still valid but G3 White ink has been released which seems to have improved chemistry and it is stretchy now.

What I am finding is the white ink does not clog as much as it did in the past.

[Alex Var.]

replacing heads (mostly cyan and/or magenta) every 3 to 4 months. in fact we stock 4 of these heads ($3000 each) as consumables items here in our office.

crazy expansive to run this machine. I have 2 other Roland that cost much less and give us more production than we can dream of with this H650. nothing but headaches with all original ink and good material (PVC and coroplast mostly) so it’s not like we’re running some unique products in it.

forget about the white ink, cuts off all the time while printing. so we don’t trust it all.
all kinds of techs have been here, they all can fix it (for few days, couple of weeks and back again) it keeps them employed at least.

I can’t wait to sell it or trade it up against something better. OCE’ maybe??

[David Rowland]

Hi, yes thats a lot of dosh… dont understand that at all, please explain what reason u replace them? blocked? defelctions? air trapped?

The OCE is actually very good printer, possibly the best at present , we have AGFA and after the teething problems but once you learnt to overcome them its good. AGFA/Gandi do have some interesting toys and they are near toronto.

[Alexander Vassilev]

Hi guys.
I’m also very interested in this discussion, cause soon I have to choose a hybrid printer with white. My company are looking forward H650/H652 and the "Anapurna" MW. More info about the problematic heads will be very welcome.
Thanks in advance.

[Robert Lambie]

It is all very well a company giving you a money back guarantee for you to purchase a machine nearing £100,000. but…

Have you any idea how much material you will waste in the process of finding out you have bought a duff machine, or at least a machine not upto its expectations?

Do you have any idea how many man hours you will loss on trial and error runs.
hours with your head stuck in the guts of the machine trying to find out whats wrong whilst you wait "another" technician coming out to look at it?

Remember, this is a flatbed printer, your wasting sheets of composite board by the dozen, acrylic, aluminium etc…

Get the supplier to educate you on exactly what the machine is and isnt capable of doing. no bullsh1t…
Do NOT read the standard sales spec on what the machine can do. thats always "the machines best output" on each bullit point…
by that i mean…

"The Lambie Flatbed printer
Prints a million DPI
Prints onto anything
Prints 100 square metres per hr.

fact is…

the high dpi will be on its painfully slow setting.
the fastest output is often on its poorest quality setting, which in allot of cases is "unsellable"
prinst onto any material used "by signmakers" but even then, there are drawbacks, surface preperation on each material. proper curing times etc…

the list goes on…

do NOT become a guinea-pig…
would you buy a £100,000 car for it to keep breaking down leaving you stranded in the middle of nowhere? course not… you would hand it back right away. and quite rightly too.
the difference here is, when you break down, you not only loose money, your not making money either. your staff are stood round you, scratching their ar$e watching you do the technicians job. whos paying the wages?

I speak with full expereince of this. cover your back at every turn…
everything you request from the supplier, get it by email or in writting and file the lot. regardless to how significant you think it is now.

anyway… before i go off on one. just trying to give a little advice before making a purchase.

😀

[Alex Var.]

gents, thanks for the input.
I have been in the industry (with many different printers) for over 20 years.
from what I have seen, Flatbed are simply not worth the money, roll to roll is the way to go even if you have to mount onto boards/ sheets etc…
yes, you waste more time in labour and material. I will agree with Rob here, make your research prior to purchasing anything over $1000.00 no matter what it is.

Flatbed biggest problem is: they cost a lot of money and they depreciate in value faster than anything else out there. you have to make a huge amount of money in 2 years because the drop in price is almost 50%. and the more money they cost, the more expansive they’re to run and more they depreciate.

Roll to roll is still a better option (in my humble opinion) we may even sell this machine and get another Roland here to keep up with our high speed printing. don’t forget, the roll to roll prints unattended.

in regards to EFI, the will sell their machine with 3 months warranty on heads (that sucks, too many problems from what I have seen so far) in the standard print mode. forget about the white for long jobs, it just ainttttt happening.
the problem with heads is they start losing fire power while printing. which doesn’t occur on other machine that use the same Toshiba Tech head (which is fantastic from what I read)

we discussed options briefly with a couple of other sign shops here, they seem to be interested in "purchasing or talking about it at least" dealer will give peanuts back for it.

let me know what you think.

thank you

[Bill Giannas]

Sorry it has taken so long to post a reply to how things went with the install of the Rastek.
But here comes the story and verdict in short.
We initially looked at the H650 but the salesperson gave me a " really good deal " on a superseded model called the H700, well after months of failures they finally decided to swap this machine for the newer and more costly H652.
Now the machine works but we have had issues such as overspray, static on print jobs and various other tech glitches..
Now credit where credit is due all problems were fixed in fairly good time especially since I am on the West Coast of Australia and they are on the East Coast ( anyone who knows the land downunder will understand its a big flight compared to Euro countries ), but they continued to fly their Techy over to fix even though we did have some serious discussions on who was liable for various things.
Verdict I wouldn’t buy another one! It is a lot of money to outlay even though it is a bottom of the list machine. If I was to ever upgrade I would buy a true flatbed machine rather than a hybrid.
If anyone needs any other info by all means ask me a question!

[Glenn-W]

ok so like many before me and no doubt many yet to come we think we want a flatbed printer….but which one, and is it really worth it… We are currently considering the H652 which is now £70K LED lamps rather than UV, the anapurna Mw £63K and the Neolt asterjet £68K.

Or should we just get a couple of Mimaki SUV machines which are UV cured roll to roll machines

Reading through all the comments I am more confused than ever and it is a lot of money for a bottom end machine, when you consider the mimaki SUV is just £20K

any help appreciated

[Adrian Hewson]

Ha ha ha ha
LOL LOL LOLLOL

We bought Annapurna M oh dear oh dear oh deary me

Changed the inks changed the bulbs changed the substrates forget about white just think sh?te

If your prints ever need to see the sun even through a window don’t

they are crap crap crap lost £60K worst investment in my life

[Glenn-W]

so what do you use now? have you stuck with the annapurna or gone with something else?

[Adrian Hewson]

Scrapped Annapurna

we have 4 rolands so just don’t do flatbed, still getting warranty claims though

[Richard Daniel]

Was the Anapurna that bad? – Wow, I thought they were decent machines.

In December we bough Mimakis UJV hybrid off eBay. – It was a bit of a gamble as I couldnt find many reviews on here or many other places to be honest. – but we have a jv33 and never had issues with it (or too many issues the jv3 before).

Its been up and running 3 months and cant really complain.

We purchased it with the hard inks which are supposed to be specifically for direct to substrate but have been using it to print on to optically clear, pull ups and wall covering. (we’ve used 3 different brands of wall-covering with it)

We’ve had no issues with the ink chipping on soft or hard substrates, we’ve cut it with knifes, on table saws and even on a CNC and no chipping.

Ours didn’t come with the tables. – We were advised that the tables were pretty poor so had a company build us some bespoke ones that are really sturdy, (think large conveyer systems) each table is 2m long so can handle decent lengths. – last week we ran a sheet of 3m long foamex through it with no issues.

One downside to this is the ink expiry dates are pretty lousy, 4-5 months. – Its at a different unit at the moment so isn’t getting used as much as I would like but its earned its money back in bringing optically clear in house.

UV’s great for the pull ups too, I dont get a sweat on when rolling them inside the units for the first time.

I’m aware its an entry level machine, but for me thats beauty, If I decide months down the line that I need something printing direct to substrate and quicker, I can go for a specific flat bed and still have this one churning out scratch resistant wall coverings and pull ups.

[Stafford Cox]

quote Glenn-W:

We are currently considering the H652 which is now £70K LED lamps rather than UV, the anapurna Mw £63K and the Neolt asterjet £68K.

Hi Glenn. Sorry to revive an old post, but what did you go for in the end?

Stafford

[Bill Giannas]

DONT DO IT!
It’s been around 3 years now since I had the machine installed and it really has not done much for me.
When you print direct to substrate you really need to have someone standing over the machine whilst it prints to make sure the sheet stays perfectly flat so you don’t have a head strike. Have had 2 head strikes so far which burnt one of the boards
And was going to cost Aus 3k to replace each time, luckily I found a Techy who is a bit more switched on with electronics and we got away with about $600 a time.
Secondly it prints slow, so when you are paying someone to just stand and watch it’s costly considering you can set up the print with vinyl on the trusty Roland and walk away whilst it prints.
Another issue when printing direct to substrate is ink drops on the print, so you get to the end of the print and there it is in a very visible place laughing at you and destroying
The whole job, so there goes the substrate, the ink wasted plus the time you paid someone to stand and watch.
By the time you switch the machine on do the ink purge and a test print it is all time consuming which obviously costs money.
Then you have the annoying warning sounds, different sounds for different warnings
But no display to tell you what the problem is, very frustrating.
If you really want a flatbed get a true flatbed and not a hybrid, at least with a true
Flatbed you can set the print and walk away and if it does drop random blotches of ink on your print at least you haven’t wasted money watching the printer run back and forth. Other than that buy another Roland machine and get the work done faster.

[Unknown Member]

Interesting comments on the Hybrid.

I’m running a HP Scitex FB700 and it works wonders for me.

I can literally load a board and walk away from the machine no fuss…My only worry is can I run upstairs boil the kettle and make a coffee before it finishes printing…9/10 the machine prints quicker then I can get down again.

Its closer to the 100k mark but in my opinion its a good bit of kit and I’m sure Jason from Media point who also runs this machine would agree..

I have nothing but praise for it.

I run Rolands myself and yes you can leave the machine running on its own. If some one was to ask me to make a choice between the two I would be hard pushed.

[Nick Minnery]

I’ve been looking at the flatbed route. 90% of our work is estate agency boards (residential and large commercial boards)

The machine would be mainly used to print these correx boards (don’t need laminating)

Having read this thread though, it’s put me off to be honest!

[Bill Giannas]

I think the big point to make here is if you are seriously looking at one don’t go budget spend the bigger dollars, the smaller machines are slow so if you want to do realestate
Signs you will get frustrated.
Also don’t listen to the salesmen hype about buy it now and you will save ex amount it really is worth exhausting all avenues and check out as many machines as possible
And don’t worry about thinking they are getting fed up with you because once you’ve handed out your money they suddenly lose interest in you….funny that.