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Raising the Standards
The spotlight seeking out professionalism, accountability and higher standards is more focused on the sign trade than ever before following recent incidents leading to the involvement of the Health and Safety Executive (HSE).
Just assuming that everything will be alright because ‘we’ve always done it that way’ or ‘that looks alright from here’ has never been acceptable and companies that do not wish to fall foul of existing and incoming legislation need to be fully aware of their obligations and compliance. BSGA Members receive updates as well as having access to the BSGA Technical Guidelines for support and guidance in order that they can be fully prepared and justify why clients should be buying signs from them.
Just as an example, how many sign companies reading this are aware of and abide by the conditions of section 4 (Service Life) contained in BS559:2009? The wording is as follows:-
The service life of the sign shall be either:
a) As specified by the purchaser on the order; or
b) As agreed between the purchaser and the manufacturer; or
c) As specified by the manufacturer to the purchaser; or
d) If not specified or agreed in accordance with a), b) or c), 10 yearsWhat this means therefore is that if you don’t specify the expected lifetime of a sign at the time of quote and order, if the sign fails, under BS559:2009 the expected lifetime of that sign is 10 years. Just think of the implications of this on your business.
Then there is the EU Construction Products Regulation (CPR) for which the implementation date is now set for 2014. However, by virtue of Building Regulations much of EN1090‐1 is already a requirement. Whilst there is no direct legal binding to the use of British Standards or Eurocodes in the UK, they are a valid code of practice to use when carrying out designs required to comply with Building Regulations. For convenience and practicality, the "Approved Documents” to the Building Regulations list standards given "deemed to satisfy" status. For example, Building Regulations refer to wind loads to be calculated to EN1991‐1‐4 (superseded BS6399) and structural steel or aluminium components are safety critical. What this is leading to is that sign structures are going to have to be CE marked.
When CE marking is ratified for EN1090‐1 then manufacturers require their Factory Production Control system (FPC) to be independently assessed and certified by a national notified body like BRE and BMTRADA. Finally, these new codes will come under criminal law rather than civil law and will carry greater penalties (custodial sentences not just fines) for non-compliance.
BSGA Members have already received details of these forthcoming changes in our regular Emailings to Members and we intend to keep members up to date with further developments.Just as vitally important as all the above is the question of maintenance of signs one they are in place. The Authorities and the BSGA are looking at ways of including standards of maintenance practices and procedures within the BS and EN standards codes. The point is that a sign company’s responsibilities for a sign does not necessarily end upon payment of the invoice by the customer as proven in recent HSE cases and we now have the opportunity of putting that right.
The world is changing for the better. Sign Companies will need to raise their standards, quality, professionalism and competency and continue to apply these practices in all aspects of their work.
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29 Replies
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Hillarious pic but the rest made dull reading 😀
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quote John Harding:Hillarious pic:DIt’s one of my signs John! 😕
😉 :lol1:
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I think somebody on here stated "all my signs are guaranteed for 100 years or ’til the end of the road, whichever comes sooner".
Seems legit…
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Sound’s all very nice in an ideal world.
I somehow doubt that many of the backstreet sign shops are going to pay much attention, and 1/2 the customers out there are interested in one thing… PRICE.
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We may joke and I feel the same way as the comments above but I also want to do the best job possible and am interested in the standards expected of us.
As a one man band how is it possible to keep up with all these regulations ? or is it designed so in the future only large companies who have all the bits of paper can work legitimately.
I am seriously interested in the way forward for us as sole traders! -
We’re exactly the same Stuart.
Personally I think the BSGA could do more to encourage smaller sign companies to join… to be honest we see little benefit in paying our fee’s to join.
Maybe I need to know more about the BSGA, but I’ve the impression they’re aimed towards the bigger companies.
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Increased bureaucracy while well meaning has to raise the cost price of our work which we either have to pass on to the end customer or absorb ( or if your work is for any level of Government you are going to charge more to the very people whose regulation increased the costs in the first place).
Whenever regulation is introduced it is never relaxed only ever tightened.
National Government, local Government and the bloated bureaucratic nightmare that is the EU ( which has now morphed from a trading group into a Superstate) have to keep coming up with new regulations to justify their existence.John
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Also interesting that they have hardly any members, especially in the North of England.
A search on their website shows absolutely none in Cumbria although there are hundreds of sign businesses. So not very representative of the sign world unless as David says they make it more appealing and help the small business. -
I think we all want to do quality work, I can’t imagine anyone ‘wants’ to go out and do crap work, certianly not anyone who wishes to be working in 6 months time.
the quality jobs are few and far between, us small guys are usually seen as just that – small, and too small to do what they want in their opinion. Truth is that many of us are capable of doing quality work and installs but rarely get the opportunity to show it. I’ve been lucky and picked up a few nice jobs of late and they’ll hopefully lead to more.
What can they (BASG) offer me that I can’t do for myself?
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In no way am I knocking the BSGA.
If they are representing the industry we all work in, they should represent us ALL, not the minority who benefit from their membership, and can afford to cough up their fee’s.
I would be interested in seeing exactly what the BSGA can offer us smaller businesses?
Maybe Rob could have a word and we can have a Q&A with someone about it?
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This as the ringing of the CSCS card saga some of you’s may remember it
Kev
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Sorry for delay in replying to you all, had 2 weeks holiday then some b*st*rd nick my lap top so I’ve been busy piecing my business life back together.
Look, I know the subject matter can be as dull as ditchwater but:
1) anyone in the sign industry thinks this isn’t going to affect them somewhere down the line is wrong. V funny to say "I’m Billy Big B*ll*cks and this doesn’t apply to me". Even funnier to the rest of the trade who have sat up, taken notice and done something about it when BBB goes out of business when his customers have gone elsewhere to those sign companies who do realise the value of all this.
2) What can the BSGA do for "smaller" sign makers/ Well for a start we’ve told you all about this and you are not even members so none of this "it’s only of rthe big boys" stuff. BTW though, if you want the benefits of a club you should be a member of that club.
3) 40% of BSGA Members have less than £200k turn over a year and YES I would like more members so as to be more represenatative but I need to know what it is you want from the Association rather than me continually trying to guess what you want. If I didn’t think think the BSGA had a value, I would not be here.
4) Yes I agree that the stigma of years gone by means that the majority of the sign industry thinks the BSGA to be too expensive or for big companies only or not relevant. Yet I still have to chase down those companies that use the BSGA logo while not being a Member so there MUST be some value. I would gladly have 80% of our members being less than 200k turnover as that is where the majority of the industry lies.
5) No, the BSGA is not just for the big boys but yes, the big boys are represented more because they see the benefits and are prepared to engage with the Association. BTW they didn’t become big sign companies just because it was their turn.Anyway aside from all that, I will keep UK Signboards posted of developments and any other interesting trade related topics. Alll comments – including the negative ones – are appreciated, it pays to listen to your customers.
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I’m sorry David but your "scare" tactics just alienate people.
We already have far to much bureaucracy in this country as it is. Encouraging the introducing of yet more rules and regulations is counter productive for any industry.
No sign business should accept any responsibility for the condition of a buildings underlying structure – is this is what you are proposing?
If I go to fit a sign on a building and discover that the underlying fascia is rotten this is not my problem. The problem rests with the buildings owner. No amount of "sign maintenance" on my part can counter the fact that the underlying structure is getting older and will at some point fall apart unless this is rectified by the owner.
If the sign falls off in a years time I could argue that this wasn’t caused by an inadequate installation but by the fact the building was falling apart and the fascia would have collapsed anyway – whether or not it had a sign attached.
This is what happened in London last year – the sign fell down and killed someone because the wooden fascia was rotten and failed. Not because the sign was badly installed. I would argue that the BSGA is failing to represent the industry properly by accepting that the cause was poor installation. Rather you should be arguing the point that our responsibility when creating signage does not extend to providing "expert" judgement and assessment of the condition of an old shop.
In much the same way as when I buy a Ford Motor Car – I do not expect the Ford Motor Company to assess whether or not I am a fit to drive that vehicle. Other mechanisms are in place ( e.g Driving Licences).
We should stick to sign making and let others assume responsibility for the condition of their buildings – don’t burden the sign maker with that responsibility.
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Very well put phil and fully agree with what youve said. :thumbup2:
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quote :BTW though, if you want the benefits of a club you should be a member of that club.
😮 You’ve certainly made the BSGA look such a friendly association.
quote :I would like more members so as to be more represenatative but I need to know what it is you want from the Association rather than me continually trying to guess what you want.I think you know an answer to this already
quote :the majority of the sign industry thinks the BSGA to be too expensiveI think the BSGA holds more value with a particular cliental, local governments, large companies etc. But for Mrs Jones opening her first cake shop, all she cares about is price.
I’ve already asked this and I still haven’t been given a answer….
Why should our company should join you "Club" and what benefits we will get? Feel free to message me of even call me, as I am genuinely interested.
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Well put Phil. I think a LOT of us are thinking it…you just took the time to type it!
Will painters be prosecuted when a building collapses as they applied a load to an unsafe wall?
Grass cutting to ISOwhatever…pretty soon you’ll need a competency check and certificate to say you know how to wipe your own ass lest you get run over and a mother’s worst fear is realised…you didn’t have clean undies.
Whilst I agree fully that signs should be installed to a competent degree, I cannot see many clients of mine needing to see a bit of paper, (except the ones who already request a full data pack or you get escorted off site) bothering…and they are the ones I’m not fussed if I keep.
(Much like the Trusted Trader Scheme round here)
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double posted
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I agree with the latest postings and Phil in particular echoes my sentiments
David you said
quote :BTW though, if you want the benefits of a club you should be a member of that club.The problem is you haven’t sufficiently outlined what those benefits are to entice me to part with my money.
I don’t need to to belong to a "club" to tell me im doing my job well or to justify my work.
With regard to the topic discussed I always advise clients of fascia starting to deteriorate often with photos to further prove the point – I wouldnt fit to a fascia that i didnt think would hold for a reasonable time but I cant be held liable for their lack of building maintenance either.
John 😕
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Thing is for me, I belong to the FSB & a local business association. If I were to join every ‘voice of business’ I’d have no money left.
As said above, what will it offer and how much is it?
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Thanks everyone for all the comments and advice. I must admit that it has been an eye opener as to what this forum considers regarding standards and obligations of sign companies. Certainly enlightening and I will be passing comment on with regards as to what some of you see the BSGA should be doing for the industry.
I must stress that I am not ‘scare mongering’ and it may seem ‘boring’ or more ‘red tape’ but this is the real world – it’s actually how things are.
If you can find time, please have a look at these reports of a recent judgement which I hope will help explain why I am getting involved with this forum.
http://www.courtnewsuk.co.uk/?news_id=34424
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/201 … passer-by/You don’t have to take any notice of what I say. However, your legal obligations are compulsory – whether you agree with me or not – and the consequences can be/are severe when things go t*ts up.
It’s your train set guys and girls, it’s not for me or the BSGA to tell you how to run your businesses but we are here to advise. I will try to get back to those of you who want to ask more about the BSGA later as I am still trying to piece the business world back together after the theft of the laptop. Please bear with me.
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thanks David,
I would mostly like to just see a link or a few lines which outlines the major benefits and the cost.95% or more of my work involves little more than printing posters, sticking signs on vans & boards, printing tee shirts etc, shop signs are probably my least quantifiable work and usually the most hassle, most are extremely straight forward and the customer is always advised / asked to sign aknowledgement of any repairs I consider necessary before I install, if it’s downright dangerous then I say so and won’t install.
I so wish this Gov’t and the coporate bods who lobby for all this stuff – knowing they’ll be the ones to benefit, would credit us smaller businesses with some common sense.
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Thanks for the links David an interesting read
So are you saying that if Allsigns had been one of your members they would have been covered by your organization against legal proceedings or are you saying your organizations training would have made sure they avoided this issue.
They were found to be complicit because they hadn’t pointed out the fragile nature of the sign on subsequent visits – ok – but you’re not around to hold our hands all the time so how would membership of BSGA helped these guys?
So that I can make sense of where your coming from.
Thanks in advance – John
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I have had a read through and have looked in to the BSGA before the last time they graced the boards over the CSCS card where they supposedly spoke for the sign maker for a card that wasn’t even recognized by one of the biggest building projects in the history of the UK. Now on to this latest situation it seems that sign makers are the latest whipping boys for the government yes there are cowboys out there who give the trade a bad name but there are a lot more out there who are responsible and act in a professional manner. The basis of this case is that the court wants the installing company to be responsible for a sign that it fitted nearly 10 years ago. The reason being it did not specify a lifespan on the sign a hoarding it probably put in place as a temporary fixture and probably had no expectations that the sign would still be in use 10 years on. So this now means that every sign maker will start to specify a 3 year life span on what they supply and install. This does not however solve the problem of signs becoming dangerous it will just mean sign makers will specify a 3 year life span and owners will ignore this and leave the signs in place with the onus if something goes wrong moving from us the sign maker to someone else but doesn’t solve the issue of people getting hurt so a load of red tape and new hoops to jump through but the out come is exactly the same just additional work for the sign maker. Another point is are the board, sign frame manufacturers etc going to start specifying the life span of their products or are they going to end up sitting beside the sign maker when they end up in court.
Back to the BGSA may be they can specify how and what type of help they are going to give sign makers on this matter because in my mind an association that represents a group of people should be fighting to make things better for that group of people and not jumping on to every issue that arises and say they represent the industry regarding the matter and then offer solutions to the industry for issues that they have helped to develop. -
So how does that work then?
A sign company can be held responsible for a sign that falls down 9 years after it was installed, yet a garage can carry out an MOT test on a vehicle and at the same time also issue a disclaimer to say the certificate is only a proof of road worthiness on the day of the test (thereby ensuring no come back on the testing station should the vehicle be involved in an accident due to mechanical failure any time later).
Surely the BSGA should be lobbying to ensure it’s members receive the same degree of limited liabilty as does an MOT testing station, instead of listening to the few misguided members who think that lobbying for legislation that requires certification will give them a competitive advantage?
Well I guess it works to a degree – we can no longer make road signs without CE certification – thus ensuring those companies that have this certification have a monopoly on the market.
Call me a cynic if you like 😕
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Phil
you put it much more elegantly than me, you old smoothy :lol1: -
Ive had a good read through and dont think Ill be joining any time soon. I pay the same for annual membership of an electrical contractor scheme and get so much more in return. As a small business I will never have ISO or CE certification as its cost prohibitive, not to mention the reams of paperwork required and maintenance time looking after the systems!!!
I work safely, produce high quality work, I can do wind loading calcs, I know material science, I understand the pros & cons of mechanical and chemical fixing systems. etc, etc
What I do see is legislation coming in, and pushing out credible small businesses with no one standing up for the small independents. Although you mention BSGA are there for the small trader, its clear from reading through the site its a big boys club with a token gesture aimed at the sub £100K……
A quick postcode search on members was an eye opener……
There are other areas I dont agree with, but Ill leave it there for now
Then again there could be an opener for UKSB representing the small fish in the big pond…. 😀
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I think that UKSG is already representing the smaller guys, where else on the net can you find a buying group where the big boys rub shoulders and share advice with the little guys? I have learned so much from this site over the years, what an awesome group of members, people such as Phill, the Late john Childs, Peter, Robert, Chris’s, Martins, Rich, etc. have always spared time to help or offer advice when I got stuck, I’ve never had such help from any trade organisation I’ve belonged to, ever.
maybe the group won’t protect me from all legistlatory traps I may one day walk in to… but at least they’d take the time to read me whining about it. 😀 😀
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Hugh, yes its a fantastic learning environment, and I wouldnt be doing half the stuff I do without a load of the guys and girls on here, but BSGA seems to be a self perpetuating group looking after its own interests and actively promoting the use of its members as an "Only Solution" e.g. (direct from the FAQ section….)
Are neon signs safe?
Yes; if they have been manufactured, installed and maintained, to the appropriate standards, by a qualified [BSGA] signmaker.
…..so my neon sign installs are not safe by that thinking…..
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quote Graeme Harrold:Are neon signs safe?
Yes; if they have been manufactured, installed and maintained, to the appropriate standards, by a qualified [BSGA] signmaker.
…..so my neon sign installs are not safe by that thinking…..
you best give up now and become a librarian before a light goes out and someone bumps into a lamp post as a result of your 9 yr old neon fizzing out!
ok, so I’m joking but almost all lobbying for legislation comes form big industry in an attempt to squeeze out the competitiors who can’t afford to keep up, often the mp’s will be on the boards of these big corporate machines.
lol, just reminded myself of this song – not listened to it in ten years! http://youtu.be/hMr3KtYUCcI
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