New cutter choice…..any pointers?

[Robert Lambie]

Summa is a great make of cutter… and heard only good reports. but never used ne myself.

in past 20 years ive only run Spandex Geber 4b (now a dinasour in comparison)
followed by various sized Roland vinyl cutters… all great machines.
switched to Graphtec cutters and stuck there till present.
we now run two 54inch wide graphtecs for all our dad to day vinyl cutting. real work horses and have never let us down.

definately get a stand with your cutter. helps the vinyl track better over long cuts. i also "think" graphtec offer the plugin software to allow you to cut via corel. best check that though as i have never used corel. only Cadlink, Signlab.

[Bob Clarkson]

I’ve just done all the leg work on this one, I had samples, emails, numerous phone calls fromvarious companies, and it’s the Summa D600R, but not the D600FX.

Don’t know if I’m suppose to recommend sellers, but Spandex were the best on price, and far in advance with the service and knowledge. They do a shorter warranty, but it’s clearly better, and if you extend it, it’s still cheap.

They do their own software, but the guys on this site will know far more about that side of things than me. I just gave the disc to my kids, got them to learn it, then tell me the basics!

I’m sure Graphtec must be good by their reputation Robert, this is clearly true or you wouldn’t use them. Trouble is, they had three separate goes at sending me samples and still didn’t do what I asked. The quality was pretty bad, and when I mentioned this they just blamed the files, well they were their files, I’d asked for specific letters only. They really need a capable dealer. I’m serious Robert, they really need someone.

Must agree about the 4B, I’ve got two, and wrote a van with my 23yr old one just today.

[Robert Lambie]

quote Bob Clarkson:

Don’t know if I’m suppose to recommend sellers, but Spandex were the best on price, and far in advance with the service and knowledge. They do a shorter warranty, but it’s clearly better, and if you extend it, it’s still cheap.

you can recomemnd any company, product you wish. just not recommend your own products or services.

ive never needed any sort of support on a cutter mate. they just run and run… as long as you keep them clean and lubricate every 6 months or so there should be no need for cover. i know that its better safe than sorry but still… ide rather chance a random needed visit by a technician "after" warranty period expires than pay monthly.

i dont follow on samples though… what do you mean by samples they messed up on?
as in a cut vinyl letter?

[Bob Clarkson]

I personally wouldn’t worry on the warranty, but a lot of people seem to so I tried to cover it from the start. Summa offer 2yrs, buy it from Spandex and you get a year.

With regards to samples, I asked for an OCSG in Helvetica, straight as it comes in 150mm and in 10mm. I figured I’d have a better chance of seeing the quality with a plain sample as fancy letters can be harder to detect exacting detail and quality.

The first sample they sent, was incredibly intricate, a complex patten with some of the lines down to maybe 0.5mm. This would have been very impressive if achieved, but the cutter had done little more than murder it. It would have been unusable, and in-practical to ever make anything like it, and it couldn’t cut it anyway.

I then got some Ford logos, that I could have cut smoother by hand, then some fancy letters that would have been difficult to know what they should have looked like, but were very crudely cut, actual steps where it joined it’s start point. The last thing was some 3mm letters that were all torn and miss shaped during weeding and very notched during cutting. They then said they wouldn’t send me anymore as I was too fussy.

I figured if they couldn’t get it to cut nice and they’re the main distributors, I’ve no chance of creating the quality of work I try to put out. I sware, my 23yr old 4Bs are far better cutters than the Graphtec samples I was sent.

Spandex sent me a beautifully cut selection of 150, 200, 10 and 5mm cut on a Summa D600R in Helvetica first time. Their machine is also a good bit cheaper than the Graphtec.

I first joined your forum for information and opinions on cutters, and I’m amazed that for a couple of grand you can buy that Summa plotter. I only do this part time now, but I’d allowed 5x that amount for a decent cutter. If it’d been much more than that, I probably wouldn’t have bothered, so it was a nice surprise.

[Martin Pearson]

Like you say Bob Graphtec probably need some new sales staff or resellers if they can’t get something like that right.

I can only comment on Graphtec machines as it is all I have ever used but my machine has given me no problems at all and has served me well for years. If I had to buy another plotter then I would have no problem buying another Graphtec.

[Jason Davies]

I agree with Martin, I moved from a Roland (which I still have) to a Graphtec FC7000/130. A little unsure as I had always used Rolands but I have have to say it is an outstanding machine. Not sure why there were problems with Bob’s samples but I am very happy.

Although I have to say there is very little in the quality of cutting I find the graphtec straightforward and easy to use cutting straight from Illustrator.

The Roland used to have to have its files converted, but that was 10 years ago and we were using Macs and Freehand. Still use Macs and the graphtec is trouble free and accurate.

I also looked at the ‘budget’ range, I think it’s the CE range (maybe wrong) and I wasn’t impressed by those. I am sure they do a good job but they didn’t inspire confidence.

Jason

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Go with the Graphtec, it’s nearly idiot proof.
Ran a Gerber 4B then 4E since 1998 then got a new CEbla bla bla 24 incher last year at this time.
It’s fast, works effortlessly from Corel, the vinyl weeds easily.
Only trouble for me was the tracking, the Gerber was like running on rails, and the Graphtec can be a bit tricky.
Wish it came with a media basket but you can easily rig one.
Love….Jill

[Bob Clarkson]

I have to agree with you Martin, they must be good, from the amount of professions that use them. Thing is I have nothing to base this on other than the fact if they were only as good as the samples I had sent to me, no one would buy them.

I even said to them I would happily travel up to 150 miles or so to see one if they had a customer who could give me a quick demo. But they weren’t interested.

I just don’t understand the logic, if Spandex said to me, we’re going to send someone round for you to show them how well your cutter works, I’d be happy to do it. I can only guess a few of you would too. If they threw in a roll of vinyl or so as a sweetener for my trouble it’d be great, but I’d do it anyway.

I know these things are cheap now, so there’s not the profit for anywhere to go to a mass of trouble, but it wasn’t about the money, I just wanted to know how well it could cut.

[Robert Lambie]

haven’t a clue why the samples were bad. graphtec, roland and summa are top 3 reputable cutter on the market.
as has been said, these machines are pretty much idiot proof. all 3 are fast and accurate. my bet is that if you have poor samples, the person making the samples up dont know how to run the machine properly. loading a machine proper is important, all sorts can go wrong… then small text. if they run it on a high speed setting the accuracy will be off. to improve the accuracy, slow the machine down slightly and switch it to tangental setting. this will give you clean lines, sharp corners too, even on the smallest of text.
price comparison… when i did this about a year and a half ago… summa didnt come close to Roland or Graphtec on price. both roland and graphtec are great and ive run both for years… but completely switched to graphtec over the great deal i got with all the extras thrown in…
i still use Roland printers though and cant fault them either…

folk say, oh ive had my cutter for years… its great! maybe so, but vinyl cutters are like a car… treat them with care, clean and maintain regular and only drive them on a sunday afternoon, then yes, it will run till "you" die! our cutters work flat out day in day out… part the reason we have two side by side to keep up. we have a particular customer that needs hundreds of metres of vinyl cut at a time. thousands of lines and shapes cut very accurately. i bet one of his jobs puts 6 months of engine work on our machines in one hit. still they never falter…
i did a "cut vinyl graphic" which i recon it is the biggest cut vinyl graphic in the world. at least ive never heard of any coming close. ill have to check but it was something like 200 square metres.. all tiled in one colour. the whole thing lined up bang on accurately…. and was produced on our "two graphtecs".

[Martin Pearson]

Was that remark about only running your plotter on a Sunday afternoon aimed at me Robert 😉

[Robert Lambie]

quote Martin:

Was that remark about only running your plotter on a Sunday afternoon aimed at me Robert 😉

:lol1: :lol1: not at all mate… more sunday driver type scenario. :lol1: honest!

[Gerry Wheeler]

As I had hoped, loads of good advice here.
There doesn’t seem to be any technical reason to choose the more expensive m/c over the Graphtec and from a ‘straw poll’ of the answers given it does seem that Graphtec is the more popular choice. This may of course be a logical extension of those machines being more affordable in the first place.

Clearly with any of the top 3 makes I shouldn’t need to worry about service or support issues. As I have been using wide scale printers for years I can understand this and I suspect that in comparison to the problems of colour calibration and ink blockages these cutters are perhaps simpler unless abused.

Spares seem also to be a similar cost so no major reason there either.

As it happens there is a Graphtec supplier who is reasonably local to me who is offering good pricing (or so it seems) so i think I’ll take a trip for a demo and chat next week. I’ll let you know how I get on.

Thanks again for your time and effort with these answers.

Gerry

[Alan Drury]

Both Summa and Graphtec are excellent cutters and I don’t think you’ll be disappointed with either so I’ll comment on the ‘driving’ from Corel.
Winplot/cut from Summa instals itself into Draw adding a cut and registration mark button on the toolbar. Objects are selected, marks can be added with one click, cut button launches Winplot ready for cutting either straight to the cutter or using opos. Simple and quick, things like welding need doing in Draw and although Winplot has some features it is relatively simple but quick.
Cutting Master also installs into Draw putting an option under the ‘launch programmes’ icon and also includes the ability to add registration marks. It has more features including a very good ‘automatic weld’ option so script lettering and anything the same colour is welded at cut time, leaving editable text in Draw. As Winplot the buttons launch the programmes ready to use. Cutting Master is more sophisticated but appears very slow and clonky, the one I tried 2.1 doesn’t work well with groups and selected objects can be a pain, only a fast machine seems to run it at a acceptable speed. I’m sure thousands use it and think its great – I think its hard work and should be better. My version has stopped working now that X5 SP2 is installed but with X4 everything is still fine in as much as it works sloowwly.
My workflow is to get stuff into Signlab which has an excellent cutting front end.
Alan D

[Gerry Wheeler]

Thanks Alan
Having used various ‘equivalent’ packages in the photographic sector from Adobe etc to drive large format printers I completely understand your point that a choice at this stage is unlikely not to work but could still provide a good source of frustration and a lousy workflow especially when I am busy.

I had read of the X5 issues and like all updates I tend to tag along letting others discover the issues before I invest. I shall be going with Draw X4 not least of all because good offers are available for the full package. If and when I do invest in the future in a replacement for this it will be likely that a much slicker version or alternative exists. In simple terms, at this point I just don’t need the very latest generation. I must however, have something that works trouble free subject only to my own cock ups. 🙁

Thanks again for your wise words

Gerry

[Bob Clarkson]

I’m in a little different boat here, all I’ve ever used is 4Bs, I’ve not worked with another signmaker in 20yrs and I only do this out of choice now not career. Other than this forum I have no communication with any other signmakers to gain advice.

Point to this being, with regards to warranty etc, if I bough a cutter that was unreliable, bad batch etc, even if the after service was bad I could basically just stick it on Ebay spares or repair and get another one. Hardly cost effective, but it’s a solvable problem.

If I buy something and the people I bought it off can’t use it properly, I know I’ve got no back up if I have a problem. Typically, if I done a job and it cut badly how would I know if it was me or the cutter at fault??

I’m serious, they need a couple of strategically placed signmakers spaced across the country that are capably of demos. Then customer would order direct from Graphtec and signmaker gets an incentive from Graphtec. Now tell me that wouldn’t work…

[Robert Lambie]

bob, do you mean you dealing with graphtec directly or one of their agents?
they do have independent agents up and down the country.

[Bob Clarkson]

It was through an agent, but the agents don’t hold demonstrators, or indeed stock, I tried a few. The samples were coming direct from Graphtec. I my opinion, if an agent doesn’t hold a demo machine, and can’t sent samples or know much about the cutter, what possible use are they.

I spoke directly to Graphtec as well, that was when I got all the excuses. The whole thing was too much of a mess to bother to get my head around, life’s hard enough without trying to cope with that. lol

[Martin Pearson]

That seems a bit daft to me, what’s the point having an agent if they don’t have a demo machine for perspective customers to see working.
Especially if like you Bob you contacted Graphtec direct.
Not sure who does the samples but I do know there are people there on the technical site who are very knowledgeable. Have had a couple of questions over the years and have always had first class help from the technical department.

[Bob Clarkson]

That just reminds me of another thing that happened. I’d have to check through my original postings to be exact, but basically I had, had a company agree to a demo at my work place, and another demo at their offices. These were for both the Tangential Summa and graphtec. I can’t remember models, but they were around the 4.5 to 5k mark, as I’d assumed I was looking at too cheaper cutters by the samples I was getting. I had given them assurance I would buy one of the machines, so they weren’t wasting their time.

About an hour before he was due to turn up, I got a call saying he’d broken down and would re-book, never heard back from him at all.

Please don’t think it’s me, I don’t usually have problems buying things. Possibly with the exception of Westfield cars who didn’t seem to have any interest in selling me a 25k car because they’d just had a load of orders from Europe, this is about the only item I’ve come across frustrating issues.

[Gerry Wheeler]

Bob
You have my sympathy. From your description of events you might be forgiven for thinking that no-one wanted you business which in this financial climate is bewildering. You weren’t talking Chinese were you? :lol1:

Anyway, thought that you all would like the update so far. I’ve just spent the last couple of hours on the phone to two dealers or agents of Graphtec and Summa, namely MDP and Creative Transfer Solutions respectively asking about the 24inch models I listed earlier. Being a Newbie (and boy don’t I feel it!) I was looking for the right signals and a lot of support from these guys – armed with a reasonable amount of qu.. However, as someone who has employed and managed salesmen, reps and agents worldwide I was also tuned into technical knowhow, commercial ability and honesty too without obvious bullxxxx.

Well so far I am very happy indeed with their responses (which doesn’t help at all to decide on which machine by the way). The people to whom I chatted were very professional and did their jobs well. They each admitted to not knowing answers occasionally but took time out to go and get the answer elsewhere. Neither were damning of the opposition in any way and made flattering remarks about the machines where credit was due.

To the detail then – and with particular relevance to your experience Bob – each site had working models that they used for demo of their relevant kit on a drop-in basis. In the case of MDP each of their three sites (Wirral, Scotland and NIreland) held such demo equipment. MDP (Graphtec) supplied a 2 year on site warranty with the kit whilst Summa carried a 3-year warranty. In each case the first call was to the supplier not the manufacturer. Both explained the relevant software packages that came with each machine and could give assurance that each would work with Corel Draw X4 (my choice). MDP did comment that X5 would be covered by Graphtec software by the end of the year. I recognise this point as it has been the subject of posts elsewhere on this forum.

Price matching was available against written quotes but each was confident of their own market price as being attractive. Both ran from stock (rather than back order) and delivery was included with the Summa (not with the Graphtec) CTS offered leasing of their machines (which is why they said that they chose Summa as a brand)

Bottom line: No discernable technical difference between models. Support from each supplier seems to be in place as required. Allowing about £30 for delivery the price difference with stand is about £280 with Summa the more expensive. So it’s make your mind up time for me!

One more thing…..even as a newbie I wasn’t made to feel inferior. Nor was I dealt with any less seriously because my budget is much less than some of you would spend. All of which is very reassuring.

I’ll let you know how things progress.

Gerry

[Graham Jones2]

Hi Gerry. In your post to the forum you said that the Graphtec from MDP didn’t include delivery. The MDP pricing for the Graphtec does include free next day courier delivery to anywhere in the UK or Ireland. Apologies if we didnt make that clear or I have misread your post 🙂

[Gerry Wheeler]

Graham
Thanks for the correction. I discussed lots with the chap from MDP and I am sure i must have become a little confused.
Gerry

[Bob Clarkson]

If you do go Summa, make sure you get the basket and stand in the deal, and also that it’s an R not an FX. Even if you don’t want the stand and basket, you’ll still get a couple of hundred quid back on it.

Things are not always what they seem, cutters dealers on the whole seem like double glazing salesmen, read exactly what you’ve got before you agree. One place said they’d beat Spandex by £150, but when they sent email order it was for an FX with no stand or basket. Instead of Spandex being an R with a stand and basket.

Don’t worry about how much you have to spend, a couple of grand is more than enough. If this figure isn’t enough for them to be bothered to deal properly, it’s their fault for doing them so cheap.

Depending on what part of the country you’re in, I’m in Essex by the way, give Spandex a ring, they’re in Bristol. It can’t hurt and it might just help. I’ve dealt with them since 1987, and in hind-sight just wasted my time shopping around, I should have just bought from them in the first place.

If you’re new to this, or if you have about as much time and patience as I have, you’ve got to buy from somewhere that really understands what they’re selling. Coupled with this, you want them on the end of the phone for a bit of help if you’re struggling with something.

Creative transfer solutions was about the last company I tried, they were dearer than Spandex, but quite polite and helpful. Don’t for a second remember them saying they had a demo one or I’d have gone there. Didn’t find NDP, and can’t get it on a websearch either!!

[Gerry Wheeler]

The Co. you cannot find is MDP they are here….
http://www.mdpsupplies.co.uk/cutterpack … 4QodP3EJWw

In the end I’ve gone with a Summa D60R from Spandex. I had called them on the offchance and their price is terrific and service superb. I then read your last post and I can now also vouch for them too so far.

Gerry

[Bob Clarkson]

Then I think you’ve done well, and with regards to how good their service and attitude is, that’s standard, not just till they’ve got your money. I’ve been dealing with them since 1987 and they’re spot on. Also remember, I’m very picky and very difficult to please.

I know everyone’s out to sell and make money, we are are in one way or another, but they put the effort in to make it happen. They also have the back-up of being a large company so they can be expert in all areas. Well done mate, you’re off to a good start.

[Gerry Wheeler]

You picky…..never…. 😀 😀 😀

Thanks for the good wishes. the easy bit is now over I think!

Gerry

[Martin Pearson]

Think either machine would have suited you Gerry but now you have made your choice the fun really starts :lol1:

Good luck with it when it arrives and I look forward to watching your post count rise :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:

[Bob Clarkson]

I didn’t mean that to come across disrespectful to the fact you use Graphtec Martin, I only based it on my personal experience when trying to buy new equipment. I fully accept that it is impossible for the samples I received to be a true representation of the FX800.

[Martin Pearson]

Bob, I know you didn’t don’t worry about it. I couldn’t comment on the Summa machines as I have no experience with them, they might well be a better plotter for all I know as I have only ever had the one machine which I have been very happy with.
If I were new to the sign industry and looking to buy then I might well have ended up with a Summa the same as you.

When I started I didn’t have any choice over what machine I got, if you know what I mean 😉 😉