Is Avery 700 series an equal to Oracal 751?

[Shane Drew]

751 is better than Avery 700. Probably Avery 800 is a closer match

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Rod, I would advise against using the Avery.
Two summers back there was a problem with Avery’s A8 series, in which the adhesive failed.
I haven’t used it since.
http://www.avery-vinyl.com/
(some of the pictures on this site were submitted by me)
I’ve never had a problem with Oracal.
Love….Jill

[Martin Pearson]

Rod, like Shane I would have said Oracal 751c is a better vinyl than avery 700 and as you are use to using it day in day out I would suggest it’s use to the customer unless it is some weird colour that is only available in the avery 700 series.
I have found in the past that when a customer asks about a certain vinyl its only because they have been told about it or have had a signmaker in the past who used it, once you explain the alternatives then they are normally happy to use whatever you think best.

[John Childs]

Time for me to go against the flow again. 🙂

Avery 700 is our weapon of choice, although it costs a bit more, and although I realise that it can be very subjective, I don’t quite understand the following that Oracal gets on this site.

Here, the girlies prefer the cutting and weeding characteristics of the Avery, and the lads prefer it for ease of application. I prefer it because I get no comebacks.

Oracal 751 is a cast whereas Avery 700 is calendered, but we would use them both for the same sort of application. If we need a good cast we would go straight to Avery 900 series.

We quite often get calls from fitters, who we have sent kits out to, asking what vinyl we used because it was so much nicer to apply than the stuff they normally use.

I think Avery 700 is under-rated.

[Shane Drew]

quote John Childs:

Oracal 751 is a cast whereas Avery 700 is calendered, .

The main reason I’d use 751. Not much difference in price.

I don’t like the 700 at all. I love the 900, and I’ll use the 800, but if I’m going to use 700, I’d switch to Oracal 551.

Most people have issues with Oracal because the adhesive is much more aggressive. 751c is the same face stock as 3M 7725, but each uses there own adhesive.

Both 3M and Oracal adhesive is more sensitive to humidity in the air, but as john says, it is a preference thing I suppose. That said, I’d use a cast over a cal anytime if the price is close.

[Rod Gray]

quote John Childs:

We quite often get calls from fitters, who we have sent kits out to, asking what vinyl we used because it was so much nicer to apply than the stuff they normally use.

John, thats exactly what i was wondering. I`ve heard, in the past, that avery is easier to apply for the novice. These kits will be going to depots up and down the UK where the workshop managers and mechanics will be fitting them. I want them to be easy to fit, easy to remove from backing paper, app tape etc.

I was just curious if it was similiar to Oracal 751 in terms of quality and price.

I agree with you about 751, it is a fairly decent vinyl but it`s not particularly nice to work with. Weeding it is terrible and fitting dry can be a pain in the arse if youre not 100% concentrating. It creases very easily if youre not careful and i`ve been fitting for 20 years.

Thanks to all for your input, i think i`ll try 100m and see how it goes. I`m just grudging paying more for it than Oracal 751, even if it is only a couple of pence and Avery 800 is a more comparable product.

Thanks

Rod

[Gavin MacMillan]

I totally agree John. When oracle changed to 751c we changed to avery. The 751 was a great range, but the ‘c’ changed that. It weeds like crap it acts different with our app tape (no more floating, although I realise we could have changed tapes) and has too much instant adhesion for easy application.

We always had people offer better deals on vinyl and I always refused to change from oracle. I wouldn’t even use it as a cast now as 751c is not as high quality cast at all. 851 maybe but not 751. I really don’t see the point in using a cast when it’s not required. Over specking the job is not a good thing.

G

[Martin Pearson]

Rod as has been said it is probably a preference thing, I use oracal most of the time because I like it and I am use to it, I know exactly how to set the plotter without having to do test cuts and to be honest I don’t really have a problem weeding it.

Having said that if you are not fitting these graphics yourself and they are going to be fitted by people who have little experience of applying graphics then the avery might be a better choice.

Gavin when Oracal changed 751 to a cast material and you found you didn’t like it as much did you try the 551 series or just switch straight to Avery?

[Rod Gray]

Thanks again guys.

It seems the colours are comparable in price but not black and white.

Oracal 751 B&W = £1.72 pm
Avery 700 = £1.79 pm

Thats considerable considering i`m going through 200m – 250m of white per week.

Is that price for Avery 700 white the average price for it or am i being leaned on because i`m a newbie with Avery Supplier? 😀

[Martin Pearson]

Rod, don’t know about avery prices as I don’t use it, maybe Gavin can help as he said he was using it now.
Have you thought about using oracal 551 instead of 751c. The 551 series is suppose to be the old 751 range I am led to believe. It’s also cheaper than 751c so you could make some extra savings as well.

[John Childs]

That’s a fair price for 700 white.

I wouldn’t have expected you to be "leaned on" as new Avery customer. Quite the opposite, I would expect to be greeted with open arms and every inducement offered to try to get you to change.

[Nick Minall]

The 551 is very good… but you can only get it at 610 😕

Nick.

[John Childs]

quote Rod Gray:

Thats considerable considering i`m going through 200m – 250m of white per week.

That’s £17.50 a week.

Or half to three quarters of an hours labour.

Consider whether easier weeding would save that amount of time.

[Gavin MacMillan]

Martin, changed straight to avery, not familiar with the 551 at all. We weren’t advised by our supplier at the time that there was a comparable material? (and we did get in touch to say we would be chaging)

[Rod Gray]

quote John Childs:

quote Rod Gray:

Thats considerable considering i`m going through 200m – 250m of white per week.

That’s £17.50 a week.

Or half to three quarters of an hours labour.

Consider whether easier weeding would save that amount of time.

True mate.

Well i`ve ordered 100m or Avery 700 and 100m or Oracal 551.

I`ll let yas know how i get on.

Thanks again for the imput fellahs (and Jill !)

[Ian Johnston]

quote John Childs:

Time for me to go against the flow again. 🙂

Avery 700 is our weapon of choice, although it costs a bit more, and although I realise that it can be very subjective, I don’t quite understand the following that Oracal gets on this site.

Here, the girlies prefer the cutting and weeding characteristics of the Avery, and the lads prefer it for ease of application. I prefer it because I get no comebacks.

Oracal 751 is a cast whereas Avery 700 is calendered, but we would use them both for the same sort of application. If we need a good cast we would go straight to Avery 900 series.

We quite often get calls from fitters, who we have sent kits out to, asking what vinyl we used because it was so much nicer to apply than the stuff they normally use.

I think Avery 700 is under-rated.

HERE HERE, i have tried oracal and find it nowhere near as good as avery 700.
it’s all we use, the last roll of oracal i got i hated it that much i threw it out. (:)

[Rod Gray]

quote John Childs:

quote Rod Gray:

Thats considerable considering i`m going through 200m – 250m of white per week.

That’s £17.50 a week.

Or half to three quarters of an hours labour.

Consider whether easier weeding would save that amount of time.

Incidently, that £17.50 is roughly what we (Me and the Wife) pay for our weekly ritualistic saturday night take-away from the Amran in Bothwell !

1 Portion of Spiced Onions
4 Poppadoms
1 Chicken Chat
1 Tandoori Mixed Grill
1 Portion of Boiled rice
1 portion of Lime Pickle

£17.95 !

I`m deeply concerned at squandering such an amount on anything other than bowel crippling Indian food. 😀

[Ian Johnston]

rod if your using 200-250m a week buy in stock orders and you’ll get a lot better price than £1.79. i’d go mad paying if i was quoted that.

[Martin Pearson]

Rod, if thats the case you could have 2 Indian meals a week instead of the one or would that be a bit to much for your insides :lol1:

[Rod Gray]

quote martin:

Rod, if thats the case you could have 2 Indian meals a week instead of the one or would that be a bit to much for your insides :lol1:

Nah mate, even my belly couldn`t handle 2 a week.

and shut up Nik M, before you start 👿 😕 😀 😉

[David Rowland]

Hi, we dont use the 700, we are 90% 800 series here and a touch of 900 series.

[Stepen Wood]

I don’t quite understand Avery 800,

The adhesion is not as good as avery 700. It is very brittle

It is a cast material but does not conform anywhere near as good as avery 900, if at all.

I cannot see a reason for using it.

My opinion

Stephen

[Michael Potter]

Our Avery Rep said avery 700 is the same as oracal 551
But I prefer Mactac to both of them, Buyers choice I guess. My son uses Avery & loves it when I help him I do a lot of mumbling in my beard,
much the same as he does when he comes here to help us.
Cheers Mike 😀

[Shane Drew]

quote michael potter:

Our Avery Rep said avery 700 is the same as oracal 551

Oracal 551 is actually the same as 3M series 50.

Not sure they are correct saying that Avery 700 is the same though. 3M/Oracal even have the same colours, not sure Avery matches the colour though.

[Michael Potter]

I think he was talking in general terms, such as durability etc.
Not really sure though.
Cheers Mike

[Shane Drew]

quote michael potter:

I think he was talking in general terms, such as durability etc.
Not really sure though.
Cheers Mike

Sorry Mate, in General terms, they are similar.. Who is your avery rep.. Patrick from Graphic Art Mart? or do you buy from spandex?

[Michael Potter]

no sorry needed Shane. I had no problems with your answer.
I usually deal with graphic art mart Frank was the last rep I saw. I only use them in emergency I have asked for a price list twice all to no avail, despite the fact that we have an account with them and have had since we started.
guess that’s life at the bottom of the food chain. cheers Mike 😀

[Shane Drew]

quote michael potter:

no sorry needed Shane. I had no problems with your answer.
I usually deal with graphic art mart Frank was the last rep I saw. I only use them in emergency I have asked for a price list twice all to no avail, despite the fact that we have an account with them and have had since we started.
guess that’s life at the bottom of the food chain. cheers Mike 😀

Franks been in India for a fair while. He’s now in charge of NSW and Qld sales. I only saw him every 3 or 4 months too because I didn’t buy too much stuff from him, but now that I’ve had some issues with Australian Graphic supplies I’m buying a bit more fro GAM.

A new guy, Patrick, has moved up from their Sydney office and is the new rep up here. He said I’d see him regularly, but I’ve only ever seen him once. Got a bone to pick with them when I see him next too. One of my clients was driving past their office the other day, and decided to call in to ask about some stuff I’d quoted on. He posed as a sign guy, and they gave him a sample book, wholesale price list.. everything. He then rang me and asked me to sharpen my pencil as he found out what I’m paying.

I understand its hard in a wholesale business, but I just wish they perhaps asked for a business card or something. Ideally, they should have arranged a visit from a rep to go out and check him out.

Now my client is considering buying a second hand printer so he can do his own stuff. I’m obviously making way to much money according to him. I can’t understand why I battle to pay my bills each month tho…. 👿

[Henry Barker]

15 years ago I was buying Ultramark and Mactac from the UK, I changed over to Avery and have been using that ever since, we used to use all Avery 800, but it lifted from the vehicles leaving the glue behind, which shows there was no problem with preparation, it also lifted when stacked, multilayered graphics, and was a pain in the ass when itcame to removal always leaving all it glue behind.

We had a fleet customer that complained about destroying 800 with a steam cleaner, we changed to 700 and have never had a problem since, we use a summa t series plotter, and also experienced weeding problems with oracal.

Have tried mactac 9800, 3M, and others, but we are sticking with Avery.

[Marcella Ross]

quote Henry:

we use a summa t series plotter, and also experienced weeding problems with oracal.

I’ve been saying this for years and have been very much in the minority here. I HATE weeding Oracal and I use it only if specified by my customer (which is rare). I gave Oracal a try when I joined the UKSG and got the discount prices and also after reading the waves of support for the product on this site.
I didn’t like it. Like Ian Johnston just said ………… I threw it away.
I have used the 751c a few times and ‘persevered’ with it, but it is not my vinyl of choice.
I haven’t bought Avery for a long time, but for a period it was the only vinyl I used ……… the last time I used it was when John Childs sent vinyls up to be fitted to his customers van up this neck of the woods ………. no issues with it whatsoever, it fitted effortlessly.

[Jim McManus]

Marcella,
What vinyl do you use and where do you get it from?
I have really only used Oracal and have experienced the weeding problems, but strangely, some colours seem to be worse than others. I wouldn’t mind trying something else to give a comparison.
I have to say the benefit with Oracal is that from europoint, next day delivery makes life very easy.

Maybe time for a change though

[Marcella Ross]

Jim,

I use a lot of Metamark vinyl, it weeds good and I’ve never had any come backs at all using it. I mainly use the 4-5 year one but if a cast vinyl is necessary I’ll go to Avery, Mactac or Oracal. But only when the job dictates it.
It’s delivered next day by Scotmark, but not sure that he would cover your area Jim, if not Metamark would send it direct by courier no doubt.

You can call Andy at Scotmark on 01501 825657. He’s out delivering almost all day but you usually get him in from 4pm until 6pm. Give him a call and see if he can sort out a sample for you to cut from to see how it compares ……….. he’s an obliging guy and will organise samples, colour charts prices etc.

Marcella 😀

[Robert Lambie]

i have used avery a few times doing contract work… (supplied to me pre-cut and printed)

did about 100 vans for the new JCB livery in black avery (dont know series sorry) i found it tore easy and had a sort of pittled surface, but i some places had a gloss patch. i didnt like that… due to how it performed i would say it was a cast but i could be wrong.

however…

i also did a few large Robert Wiseman milk trucks in avery and it applied very nicely indeed and had a nice surface finish, unlike the black i used prior.
the downside of this vinyl for me was it felt rather thick and really didnt feel like it was adhering quick enough for me and of course i was applying it dry. it just didnt feel like it had a good tack. on one side of the trucks there was a large door with hinges and rubber that i had to cut around and in some parts apply over. again it didnt feel like it was biting the surface enough for me to the point i began using a heat gun. (this was mid summer last year in a couch builders workshop)

i dont do much weeding at all these days, im always on the tools fitting signs or applying graphics. so i cant give an honest view on the performance of oracal 751c these days. but, i will say if our lads were having weeding issues ide know about it. thats not to say its not harder to weed of course, just that they do fine with it and they do also use metamark, 3M and mactac 9800.
when 751 became 751c it tore easy in the beginning but that was rectified very quickly.
751c does have a quick tack adhesion but i simply put that down to the characteristics of a good cast. cast vinyls are thinner than the likes of calander vinyl, and have a high bond. if you are used to applying calander vinyl then switch it does give some folk fitting problems such as bubbles, wrinkles etc i simply put it down to its a different vinyl and how it is applied must be taken into consideration. its a bit like we dont all apply reflective in the same way we do calander because we know you have to work with it slightly different due how temperamental it can be.

at the end of the day we all use what best suits us and our business, no point using something that just does not work well with you.

[John Childs]

Perhaps that’s the point Rob. A lower initital tack allows the vinyl to be pulled back and re-applied easily. That’s a good thing provided the final adhesion is strong enough.

But, as you say…..

quote Robert Lambie:

at the end of the day we all use what best suits us and our business

[Gavin MacMillan]

Just had a look through the europoint catalogue at the 551 range – I would not really be happy to use that as our main range of vinyl with the colour lifespan of 5years. The 751 was 7year across the board with the metallics being 5year.

G