i have a problem with applying 751 help please?

[Shane Drew]

Hi Nelijane.

Ah yes, motherhood. The wife was in labour for 4 1/2 days. Don’t talk to her about the joys of motherhood 😥

Anyway, back to the problem at hand.

I’d be surprised if it was because the clear cover was left on the surface, but then, stranger things have happened I’m sure.

I think your only answer is to do it again frankly. Did you clean it down with ISO or something similar before you applied it?

751 should stick like you know what to a blanket.

I’d get the oracal rep out to check it out as the product may well be faulty. At least they will give you an idea of what is going wrong. I had a similar problem a few years back with a 3M product. 3M admitted no liability in the end, but they did replace the material because they had no answers either. The new roll worked fine.

I understand the greif you must be getting from your client, I was in the same position. But, at least if you are showing them that you are getting an expert opinion they may feel better. They are probably upset because they know you have not got an answer.

Is it cold where you are? The only other problem may be that you applied the material on to a too cold surface. Few vinyls will stick unless you heat the surface before applying in that situation.

Hope that is of some help.

If it were me, I’d go back and replace a bit of the text with material from a new roll, after cleaning it with ISO and heating it up. If it sticks, you will have the answer hopefully.

Cheers

[Tim Painter]

Did you clean the sheets prior to application?
Did you fit wet or dry?
Was it cold when you fitted?
Did you heat after application at all?

Just some questions that I think most will ask and hopefully help you to resolve the problem.

Tim.

[nelijane]

Wow – that’s fast reponses!

Yes it was bone chillingly cold when I fitted it and I didn’t use any heat afterwards. Probably asking for problems.

I only cleaned the surface with soap and water to remove dust etc. Could this be the problem?

Do you think that I could go back in with a bit of heat and blast the stuff on? I know that I sound like I’m trying to find an easy way out and to be honest, I suppose I am. I don’t mind replacing the lettering, it’s the foamex that will cost me time and money to get fitted again. Maybe I should, as suggested, remove a letter, clean the surface (what is ISO?) and reapply using heat to see if it works. I normally use thinners to clean any surface of oil or residue – is this wrong too? !!

thanks very much for your suggestions – there will come a day when I will look back on this job and smile a little ………..

[Tim Painter]

Fitted Dry or Wet?

[Shane Drew]

nelijane, iso is Isopropyl alcohol. It is also called vinyl prep, but when I wrote the first post I couldn’t think of the name.

I suspect the cold is your answer.

I would definately remove some, clean it, heat it, and reapply it. I am sure you will have success. With respect to others here, I would not do it wet either. Wet application on a cold day to a cold surface is asking for dramas.

let us how you go.

now… I am off to bed

all the best.

Shane

[Steve Broughton]

Nelijane did the chippie fit the board before the lettering???? i’d have fitted the lettering first, sounds like the cold to me too.

quote :

I only cleaned the surface with soap and water to remove dust etc.

or even the soap, I use cheapo spray window cleaner from Wilkos to wipe off dust , iso I have a hell of a job to get, the local chemists shops just give you a funny look and say no.
Oh and even more doom did the chippie fit the board to allow for the expansion of the board? if not then the first bit of heat on black board its gonna expand like mad and go wobbly, sorry.

[Andy Gorman]

Neli,
If you cleaned the panel with only soap and water, there’s a good chance that some soapy residue is still on the panel. This would cause the problem you describe. I would remove the letters, rinse the panel thoroughly with clean water and then with isopropyl or any degreasing agent (meths etc). Then reletter. If the panel is completely dry the letters shouldn’t peel away on their own even in the cold, but a bit of heat wouldn’t be a bad idea just to make it grip.

Andy

[Simon Clayton]

I would say it was due to cleaning….must be some type of grime or something..
I don’t think it would be the cold?? as the panels are black they would soon warm up with only a little sun, even on a really cold day,
However foamex has tiny dimples all over which hold moisture and dirt,
Make sure the panel is completely clean and free from any grease/Olly film as Steve has said window cleaner works well, I use Mr muscles professional window cleaner.
Apply in small sections only and apply a little heat before and after applying the letters..

Simon

[nelijane]

right. I’ve got to go there tomorrow, the dread is setting in already, so I’ll try a little part. the thing is, most of the letters seem ok but I’ve had to revisit twice already after phone calls to let me know that the letters are starting to bubble/peel back. I think I’ve sorted the problem and then another letter causes problems. I was wondering if there was any sort of stuff that I could use to fix the letters once I’ve reapplied them – like a laminate or something – I’d even considered varnishing over the whole lot!

I fitted the letters dry but they didn’t seem over-tacky when they went up. In the past, however, I’ve put this down to the cold and once up the vinyl has stuck the test of time.

[Bill Dewison]

Sounds as if the water you’ve used to clean the signboard over has remained on the signboard. Once you’ve applied the vinyl, the water droplets beneath the vinyl have frozen with the temperature being so low, making it impossible for the glue to grab hold.

As has been suggested, plenty of heat both before and after application. Before to ensure the surface is properly dry and a little warmer for application and afterwards to activate the glue and give a better bite.

Similar has happened to me in the past, but alot of the time when one thing goes wrong on a job, a whole series of disasters soon follow 😕 I fitted some vinyl to a shop front, then attached a signboard just inside the doorway. In a matter of days the vinyl started to lift from the shop front and the interior sign was hanging off the wall 😮 The vinyl problem was entirely my fault, I hadn’t heated it and to be honest, I rushed the job, but the interior sign turned out to have come off with the help of a small child and an action man! 😮 Again, my fault as I should have ensured the signboard was more secure 🙁 🙄 😳 What started as a quick job that I’d allowed 2 hours start to finish turned into a nightmare very quickly and I ended up giving the customer £50 worth of free print as compensation for my poor fitting 😳 😳 Learnt my lesson though, it won’t happen again.

Cheers, Dewi

[Rod Gray]

Neli,

I`d go over each letter individually and spend lots of time heating them up and pressing them in to the foam board.

i`ve no idea how much text or vinyl is involved but if the job is far away, i`d cut another run of duplicates just in case.

From my experience, Oracal 751 is very poor at sticking in low temperatures, especially at this time of year.

Sounds like it was just one of those unlucky jobs.

[Andy Gorman]

I know it’s a bit cold (!) but it shouldn’t really be necessary to heat vinyl to make it stick so long as the panel is completely dry. You can heat it a bit, but bear in mind that heating a foamex panel WILL make it warp instantly, however it is fitted. It should return to its original shape once it cools though.

I’ve stripped and relettered a foamex panel just this morning, in the cold outside. I warmed it a bit to remove the old stuff, cleaned it with white spirit to remove any glue residue, and then with meths to remove the greasy white spirit. Vinyl stuck like s*** to a blanket.

I’m pretty sure your problems have arisen from soap remaining on the panel. Clean it properly with something non greasy and I’m sure it’ll be fine.

And stop worrying. 😉

[John Singh]

Like the rest here: It sounds like you left a residue of soap on the substrate. It must be removed completely with Iso or meths

John

[nelijane]

I’ve never come across iso – I’ve been using thinners so far. I’ll try to sort this out and take some photos tomorrow. cheers all! 🙂

[Bill Dewison]

Some chemists will sell you the isopropythingy stuff, as has been said, you do get funny looks when you’re asking for it 😕 It was originally suggested a few months back as a method for cleaning vinyl before printing on the PC600 I think.

Good luck with it though Naomi, I’m sure it’ll turn out okay for you 😀

Cheers, Dewi

[Derek Heron]

hi Naomi if you have problems getting isopropanol let me know how and i will get a couple of litres to you f.o.c. so you can try it
i use it all the time and never have any problems
dex

[kennyrblair]

I buy isopropanol (I.P.A) in 30ltr drums but you can also buy in smaller
quantities.

A company called SAFECHEM on Drum industrial Estate in Birtly
Co. Durham would be able to supply this. they are always very helpfull.
If you need a tel no. let me know.

Kenny 😛

[Chris Wool]

i have had simular before with coloured fomex my cure was to wash it well with a sprit wipe before applying new lettering – it was thought to be a release agent on or in the suface of the plastic

chris

[Shane Drew]

Hi all,

On the Oracal USA website it states that the Minimum application temperature of 751 is +46°F (I think that is about 8 deg C)

This of course in surface temp and not ambient temp.

That is why you need to heat the surface for it to stick. But, the comments on cleaning here are certainly valid.

Cheers

[Bill Dewison]

I read the same thing Shane, its in the swatch booklets now as well. Definately think its wise to heat the surface before fitting to it, it makes for a better bond.

Wonder how you could find out the surface temperature of say a vehicle though? Or a substrate for that matter, but it would be interesting to find out what the temperature is before fitting.

Cheers, Dewi

[Jim Clough]

Hi Dewi
There is a Raytek Laser Temp Gun costs about £80-£90 measures accurate temps of anything including heat presses. Been meaning to get one for ages but not got round to it.

Cheers
Jim

[Shane Drew]

Hi Dewi, you can get them, but have not seen them for a while. I used to have a temp guage that are like a cling wrap material that changes colour with the heat (like the old stress testers that were a gimmick a few years ago). They sit on the surface and only take a few minutes to change.

I usually go on the old hand touch thingy. If it feels cold it is cold (does that sound obvious?) you know what I mean tho. Use the back of the hand tho because it is more sensitive to heat. (thinner skin)

You guys would have a wind chill factor to think about too I’d imagine.

End of the day, nothing beats experinence I suppose.

Cheers

[Paul Goodwin]

Dewi Snap-On do a hand held laser heat temp device

[Bill Dewison]

They seem to make a laser for everything these days. I bought one of those laser light things that project a beam across the wall, but its been sat unused in the toolbox for ages 😕

As you say Shane, it is experience, I’m just thinking if I can accurately measure the temperature on surfaces, it may be worthwhile. I do vans in a very shaded yard and it’d be interesting to know what the temperature of the bodywork is when its not in direct sunlight. Just me being a nerd again :lol1:

Thanks for the tips on those tools though, I’ll have a hunt about 😀

Cheers, Dewi

[nelijane]

Didn’t make it to the pub of doom today, will go tommorrow – strange how it’s so easy to put this one off. Thanks for info – especially to the local guys about the Iso thing, I’m going to ask my local chemist and if I have no joy I’ll definitely be in touch for tel numbers of suppliers etc.

cheers naomi

[Steve Farrugia]

This may sound silly but are you SURE its foamex?

If its very matt in appearance it may not be foamex and vinyl does not like sticking to some matt surfaces especially when cold. If it has some grab heat it up and hope for the best or you will have to fit flat cuts to it.

[Laurence Felton]

guys, reference the alcohol – have a chat with your local litho printer. We use a lot of the stuff and always have plenty in stock. A word of caution <health & safety cap on> this stuff is extremely volatile and there are a tonne of HSE regulations over its safe use and storage. A couple of litres in a secure container isn’t going to get you closed down, but a 30L drum needs to be kept bunded and fire safe and WILL get you closed down pronto by HM govt if not correctly stored <health & safety cap off>.