Hi folks :) Need some pro advice on producing product labels

[Jason Bagladi]

Hi John,

I have had a BN-20 since they were launched in the UK. It’s a great piece of kit and ideal for the sort of labels you’re talking about. Print, laminate and cut is a breeze.
A few points to note.
1) Its not the fastest printer out there
2) Metallic option (which I have) can work out expensive if you don’t print much metallic, due to the BN-20 using the ink for cleaning cycles.
3) Metallic is very slow printing, but results are amazing. Laminating is a must though, in reality.
4) The waste ink container is classed as a consumable and costs around £70. There are ways round it though!!!
Mine has been trouble free and any support from Roland has always been excellent.

Feel free to ask any other questions.

Hope this helps.

[Shane Binding]

I looked at the Bn20 a fair bit but then decided to go for the vs540, but i would think long and hard about the white and metallic options.

[John C]

quote Jason Bagladi:

Hi John,

I have had a BN-20 since they were launched in the UK. It’s a great piece of kit and ideal for the sort of labels you’re talking about. Print, laminate and cut is a breeze.
A few points to note.
1) Its not the fastest printer out there
2) Metallic option (which I have) can work out expensive if you don’t print much metallic, due to the BN-20 using the ink for cleaning cycles.
3) Metallic is very slow printing, but results are amazing. Laminating is a must though, in reality.
4) The waste ink container is classed as a consumable and costs around £70. There are ways round it though!!!
Mine has been trouble free and any support from Roland has always been excellent.

Feel free to ask any other questions.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Jason 🙂

Good to know I’m on the right track with the BN20.

Not really a big issue that it’s slow to be honest. I can queue the jobs and leave to print for as long as it takes.

The 500 odd metallic effects are one of the main attractions for me to be fair. As a manufacturer, it’s another way to make our products stand out, and lift them. The metallic would be integral to everything we would print on the machine, so hopefully the waste wouldn’t be such an issue.

How do you get around the waste container cost… by emptying it yourself?

Any suggestions on a good quality, but good value cold laminator to match?

And how does the BN20 cope with the separate print, then laminate, then reinsertion for cutting processes. Does it always pick up the reference points through laminate OK?

Thanks again 🙂

[John C]

quote shane binding:

I looked at the Bn20 a fair bit but then decided to go for the vs540, but i would think long and hard about the white and metallic options.

Thanks Shane 🙂

And are you happy with your decision? As I’ve mentioned the metallic is a big attraction for us, as another way to stand out from the competition.

Do you think the BN20 would do what we need well?

Thanks 🙂

[Shane Binding]

I looked at the bn20 quiet a few times at various trade shows but the price point just didn’t make sense for something so small, I have seen 2 companies buy the bn20 down here and one put it up for sale within 6 months and the other person sooner than that. I have never looked back since I had this machine and I didn’t get go for the white or metallics as as has been mentioned they have to be used or they get used in the cleaning cycle. Have you seen the bn20 printing? It might be worth waiting a while and have a good look at sign and digital.
Hope that helps Shane

[Martin Pearson]

John the main difference between Shane & yourself is that the BN20 is a bit on the small side for signmaking, I would guess that the companies that sold them on quickly did so because they needed a bigger machine.
As a signmaker if you are only running one machine then it is really best to have something that will handle a wide range of tasks.
I would as Shane has suggested try to see it running, take a test file of your own along to get printed to see if it fits the bill.

[John C]

quote Martin:

John the main difference between Shane & yourself is that the BN20 is a bit on the small side for signmaking, I would guess that the companies that sold them on quickly did so because they needed a bigger machine.
As a signmaker if you are only running one machine then it is really best to have something that will handle a wide range of tasks.
I would as Shane has suggested try to see it running, take a test file of your own along to get printed to see if it fits the bill.

Thanks Martin, I’m waiting on print samples as you suggest arriving from my "local" roland dealer in dublin.

So you reckon the size thing wouldn’t be such an issue for us, given that it’ll be a label setup?

Are there comparable offerings from other manufacturers?

Thanks Martin 🙂

[Colin Crabb]

Take a look at the mimaki CVJ30-60, (We have a larger version, bullet proof construction, never misses a beat) has the metallic + white options, bigger machine but faster and more scope for other work – you never know you might want to make your own P.O.S items too.

With metallic and whites (as said on this thread already) to make them cost effective you will need to use them continuously, or the cleaning cycle will just eat & waste the ink., and metallic cart’ isn’t the cheapest. We started with the white + metallic option, but changed after 6 months as more ink was being wasted than used.

There can be drying issues with metallic inks too, ‘frog juice’ spray can help/solve this issue – It’s all dependant on the amount of pure metallic silver you use, pure silver will not dry on it own.

[John C]

quote Colin Crabb:

Take a look at the mimaki CVJ30-60, (We have a larger version, bullet proof construction, never misses a beat) has the metallic + white options, bigger machine but faster and more scope for other work – you never know you might want to make your own P.O.S items too.

With metallic and whites (as said on this thread already) to make them cost effective you will need to use them continuously, or the cleaning cycle will just eat & waste the ink., and metallic cart’ isn’t the cheapest. We started with the white + metallic option, but changed after 6 months as more ink was being wasted than used.

There can be drying issues with metallic inks too, ‘frog juice’ spray can help/solve this issue – It’s all dependant on the amount of pure metallic silver you use, pure silver will not dry on it own.

Thanks Colin 🙂

Really appreciate the recommendation as I wouldn’t have had a clue where to start with other manufacturers.

How would you rate print quality and ink quality in comparison to the Roland s?

Thanks!

[Colin Crabb]

I love my Mimaki, quality is outstanding, you wouldn’t be disappointed.
We do a lot of custom sticker, in all sizes and never had a problem with fine text, just about to run 2000 20mm x 50mm for doming, 32 pass on setting will be perfect.

Give a few suppliers a call and see if you can get samples, or even book a demo.

[John C]

quote Colin Crabb:

I love my Mimaki, quality is outstanding, you wouldn’t be disappointed.
We do a lot of custom sticker, in all sizes and never had a problem with fine text, just about to run 2000 20mm x 50mm for doming, 32 pass on setting will be perfect.

Give a few suppliers a call and see if you can get samples, or even book a demo.

Thanks Colin, I’ll do that 🙂

[Chris Wool]

john Colin i know makes a lot of small wonderful stuff and what he says about the mimaki inks are true with the roland.
i have a vs 540 wt met and do similar you can go to one of the roland demo sites and see all for yourself.
but the met is not as bright as you may think and the white is not as good as you might think. you need to see it.
for the use we bought the vs its not quite fitting the bill due to those things quality of the print is not a issue at all.
if you want chrome alike type silver then it has to be a thermal machine such as the spandex edge this will also give a creditable white but that machine is more expensive to run.

Jason Davis on here in south Wales has a full label set up for sale

the mimaki and the vs are way abouve your original budget but will open up other areas.

[John C]

quote Chris Wool:

john Colin i know makes a lot of small wonderful stuff and what he says about the mimaki inks are true with the roland.
i have a vs 540 wt met and do similar you can go to one of the roland demo sites and see all for yourself.
but the met is not as bright as you may think and the white is not as good as you might think. you need to see it.
for the use we bought the vs its not quite fitting the bill due to those things quality of the print is not a issue at all.
if you want chrome alike type silver then it has to be a thermal machine such as the spandex edge this will also give a creditable white but that machine is more expensive to run.

Jason Davis on here in south Wales has a full label set up for sale

the mimaki and the vs are way abouve your original budget but will open up other areas.

Hi Chris, thanks for that 🙂

Yeah I know what you mean with the metallic; it’s a dull, satin effect rather than a chrome, foil finish. I got samples with matt and gloss over laminate from a VS-i and I must say I still though they were pretty trick. The many different colours of metallic would prove useful for me too.

The Primera kit for sale you mentioned isn’t really what I’m after to be honest, though I’m sure it’s very good also.

I’m beginning to favour a separate printer, laminator and cutter setup. I’ve been looking at the Graphtec Cutters as they seem very well received and fast. And an Easymount Cold Laminator. Which would mean that the Mimaki with full solvent inks is a real contender. What do you guys reckon to this setup for labels?

Thanks 🙂

[Jason Xuereb]

How many labels are you needing and how often?

[John C]

quote Jason Xuereb:

How many labels are you needing and how often?

Hi Jason 🙂

We have between 50 – 80 variants depending on time of year, in six products, 1 – 3 labels per product; probably about 150,000 labels initially, and then between 30 – 50,000 monthly.

Thanks!

[Jason Xuereb]

How big are they?

[Chris Wool]

Good question Jason bit of a change from the hundreds first mentioned. The goal posts just moved.
😀

[Jason Davies]

Thanks for the promo Chris on my kit. I would say that with the quantities you are looking at producing the solvent route is not the way to go, it is too many. For an in house setup the Primera kit is the way to go.

The machine I have for sale will not die cut but there is a wide range of labels that can be used off the shelf and you can have dies made for specific labels for about £150 I think.

The next step up is the 1200 model and you can purchase a finishing setup with this which will cut and laminate although this is somewhere in the £50k region but will pay for itself very quickly judging by the quantities you want to run.

The software is very easy to use and the speed of print will leave all of the solvent printers standing, as will the quality.

There are a number of other machines out there that will do a similar job but these seemed to be the best ones at the time of our purchase.

Good luck

[Chris Wool]

just had a play with versaworks

1000 25mm squares 720×720 dpi middle good quality print – print and cut aprox 1h 20mins on a 400mm width roll. non including lamination time
down to 35 min on a 1340 width machine using 1250 print width.
with any metallic content aprox 1h on 1250 print width.

those could be cut down posibly by a third using a pro4 printer. two heads better than one

+ plus finishing area time labour materials – ink etc.

think i got me maffs right

[Jason Davies]

And on the Primera less than 5 minutes from start to applying the labels.

We run Rolands and Gerbers and cannot compete with the speed of the dedicated label printers.

Forgot to mention, they take up a fraction of the space a solvent printer and laminating station will take up.

[John C]

quote Jason Davies:

And on the Primera less than 5 minutes from start to applying the labels.

We run Rolands and Gerbers and cannot compete with the speed of the dedicated label printers.

Forgot to mention, they take up a fraction of the space a solvent printer and laminating station will take up.

Thanks guys, although I’m not sure which way to jump now to be honest.

Fifty grand is a hell of an investment on a label setup; one which would be difficult for me to justify. Yes it’s undoubtedly going to be much faster than a versacamm, but production of labels is going to be the printer’s sole task, so it could run 24/7 with a dryer and take up? Also the Primera doesn’t print white or metallic, or does it?

What about a Gerber Edge FX, would it be more suited to our needs?

Thanks for your input guys.

[Jason Xuereb]

Your problem is you want to setup a production setup. Now we produce a lot more labels then you require in a month but we’ve got a lot more equipment and a lot more staff etc.

The printer might run 247 but who is going to load it? Who is going to change the inks. Who is going to laminate and reload the media so you can cut it and who is going to keep track of all those artworks etc.

My advice would be find a company who has an indigo press. Make all your labels the same size and have a die made. Give them your files in an easy to manage way so they know how many to print etc. Have them already laid out that matches the die and the registration marks. Get them to give you a massive roll of all your labels. Buy yourself a cheap re-winder and split up your labels yourself. They’ll be able to pump them out in a day and for a lot cheaper to you could produce them using a solvent printer.

Create a win win situation with your supplier. 50-80 SKUS is no small feat even producing them yourself. You need to pre press each file etc. Speak to your supplier and see where you can make it easier. We’ve done this for our customers by having pre set artworks so when they order a label from us they give us a code and we just pull already prepressed artwork and just produce it. They get it cheaper and faster because we aren’t repeating steps that don’t need to be repeated. The way I suggested they simply get your file and select x amount of copies and hit print. You’re doing half the work for them. They’ll be happy and you’ll be happy.

[John C]

quote Jason Xuereb:

Your problem is you want to setup a production setup. Now we produce a lot more labels then you require in a month but we’ve got a lot more equipment and a lot more staff etc.

The printer might run 247 but who is going to load it? Who is going to change the inks. Who is going to laminate and reload the media so you can cut it and who is going to keep track of all those artworks etc.

My advice would be find a company who has an indigo press. Make all your labels the same size and have a die made. Give them your files in an easy to manage way so they know how many to print etc. Have them already laid out that matches the die and the registration marks. Get them to give you a massive roll of all your labels. Buy yourself a cheap re-winder and split up your labels yourself. They’ll be able to pump them out in a day and for a lot cheaper to you could produce them using a solvent printer.

Create a win win situation with your supplier. 50-80 SKUS is no small feat even producing them yourself. You need to pre press each file etc. Speak to your supplier and see where you can make it easier. We’ve done this for our customers by having pre set artworks so when they order a label from us they give us a code and we just pull already prepressed artwork and just produce it. They get it cheaper and faster because we aren’t repeating steps that don’t need to be repeated. The way I suggested they simply get your file and select x amount of copies and hit print. You’re doing half the work for them. They’ll be happy and you’ll be happy.

Thanks for your thoughts Jason, and I do appreciate you taking the time.

However the purpose of this endeavour is to bring our label production in house, out of the hands of the external printers we currently use, to give us a greater degree of control and flexibility.

I’m still very interested in any alternative solutions or suggestions which you guys might have 🙂

[Jason Xuereb]

Your welcome seems like the Roland BN-20 is the way to go in your situation then.

[Jason Davies]

Do you need full colour or spot colour?

I don’t think the BN 20 will cope with the quantity of labels you require. I would certainly speak to someone who is running one first.

[John C]

quote Jason Davies:

Do you need full colour or spot colour?

I don’t think the BN 20 will cope with the quantity of labels you require. I would certainly speak to someone who is running one first.

Hi Jason 🙂

We require full colour.

Thanks.

[Jason Davies]

Then a Gerber Edge will be no good