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help please having problems with shrinkage & red vinyl
shrinkage with red vinyl.
i have had 2 recalls in the last 3 weeks where only the red vinyl has been shrinking 😕
dose anyone know why this is happening?the material i used was hexis E3000
could it be I had a Bad roll
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29 Replies
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Ouch – how long ago did you apply this? I don’t know the vinyl is it a monomeric?
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about 6 months ago
monomeric calendered
i may of used the mg2000 but 90% sure it was E3000+Gloss
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quote :monomeric calenderedthere is you answer
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hexis quote it as a 5 year outdoor life.
and the vinyl under neath is from the e3000 and that hasn’t budged YET! -
Scott we do a 5yr monomeric vinyl but I wouldn’t suggest to anyone to use for vehicle decals unless short term i.e. 6 months, as you will always get a nice shadow / outline effect once it starts shrinking.
7yr should be the norm for long term vehicle decals at the very least.
Nigel
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From the picture it looks just like Avery.
(hot)
Love….Jill -
quote Chris Wool:quote :monomeric calenderedthere is you answer
Oh dear oh dear. Scott, did you really mean this?
Anyway, the red must be a very short life temp vinyl, possibly with a non-acrylic glue.
Being put on black panels it will have got very hot and caused it to complain bitterly.
Incorrect use of materials in my view. -
ive got the car coming in Monday.
i am going to print them this time on MD5.
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quote Jillbeans:From the picture it looks just like Avery.
(hot)
Love….JillI know some of you guys in the States got burnt by Avery but in all the years I’ve been using their products I’ve had very few issues. (any others in the UK or Europe had issues with Avery film?)
sorry that reads like a thread hijack – like others have already stated Monomeric is the wrong choice of material for that application.
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Not having seen the whole decal, is the white supposed to be that angular i.e. straight(ish) lines rather than smooth curves?
To date I have not used budget vinyl, mainly due to the limited space I can sore a colour range in. For the difference in price, peace of mind and ease of use I have been stocking more and more cast. I may loose a bit on the lower cost jobs (margin wise), but I have rationalised my stock with a good range of colour knowing it will tackle the majority of work I get.
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This is a bit worrying for those who just read the ‘bumph’ at the top of the colour/price chart on the hexis or metamark catalogues that tell us that the vinyl will be suitable for outdoor use for 4years or so, and then
believe it and order dozens of metres, apply and walk away happy with the job.Surely the suppliers have a duty to explain that monomeric calendered is just not suitable if it can do this (see Scotts photo)
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I have to agree, monomeric is a bad choice of material regardless of what suppliers say about it. I only buy in mono if I can use the whole lot on one short term job as I don’t want it in the workshop.
Also I find that monomerics are harder to weed and to get the weight right so a little saving in material cost can easily be outweighed in messing about time. I use this rule for the printer also where I use Avery MPI2000 as a standard, cast where needed and monomeric if I can use the lot over a fairly short period of time.
Scott, don’t beat yourself up about it, learn your lesson. Contact anyone you think may have a problem and offer to fix it if issues arise. I find that a lot of folk instead of coming back and complaining will just never use you again and also give you a bad rep. Be honest and upfront and hopefully you wont suffer from this. Think long and hard about the material you stock, it’s what makes or breaks your business.
I also agree with Craig, Avery had issues in the states but we have never had a problem nor did anyone in the UK as far as I know. I’m aware of the problem but don’t feel it is helpful when mentioned out of context.
G
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I’m thinking of maybe going from using oracal 651 to using metamark 4 series. A sign maker in my area has had no problems with metamark since he started using it 1.5 years ago (vehicles included), so I have been tempted.
I am now beginning to get second thoughts, although to be perfectly honest I have also used the stuff Scott has had a problem with (Hexis ecotac range – monomeric) many times with no complaints for 2 years or so, on and off, so this reaction on the vehicle must point more towards a bad batch than the normal expected reaction after just 3 weeks.
Oooer, what to do??
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I have always only used high performance (cast) vinyl on vehicles.
I use Calon 2, Oracal 851, and sometimes 3M (Gerber)
I save the 651 for corosigns, window lettering, banners, and some smaller signs.
The way I think of it is, the more expensive the substrate, the better the grade of vinyl.
I also try not to layer cast over calendared and vice versa.
Love….Jill -
I have never seen any vinyl shrink THAT much, and even for the cheapest monomeric it would not be fit for purpose,
Did you layer on the vehicle, and was it applied wet ? what type of adhesive is used?
Peter
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Not too sure about MD4 Gareth but sounds like you are thinking of changing from one average vinyl to another.
651 is a 5-7 year where the old 751 was a 7year. Avery 700 is also a 7 year. If it’s got a 5 in there then the general rule as I understand it is the colours are 5 year and black and white are 7. To me that is vinyl that is just not up to the job to be used as an all rounder. Fine for certain applications but not one for everything. I think a lot of people went to 651 after the 751 disappearing disaster, but it’s not an equivalent material and if you didn’t like the new 751c then a change of manufacturer was in order.
Just my tuppence.
G
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Scott, this isn’t a pop at you – but the price difference between 2-3 yr monomeric & 5-7 year polymeric vinyl isn’t huge. Paying an extra £1 a metre is hardly going to break the bank…if the margins on a vehicle livery or sign is so tight so as not to stand ‘doing it right’ why bother. No, really…
I use 5-7 polymeric for 99% of my signs & vehicles and it performs well. I get the 10 yr cast in for the ‘fleet’ jobs where the customer wants it to last 5yr+ with ease.
I pay around £3 for 1220 wide in 5-7 (Ritrama / 3M / SeriSign) as opposed to a little under £2 for, well, cheap crap.
Like Gavin said – lesson learnt! Haven’t seen anything shrinking that bad in a long time!
Dave
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I have a sign in my area that looks in the same state (not made by me). Its a ivory sign tray with black flooded top then silver and red infill on top. The silver and red have shrunk and peeled beyond all belief. The sign faces south west and therefore gets a lot of solar heating……This one is 9 months old.
I have offered to re-make it for them…. :lol1: :lol1:
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I’m with the boys on this one.
Unless genuinely short term, a week or two, 5/7 year polymeric is the lowest spec we would consider putting on a vehicle. Even then, flat panels only.
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I’ve seen similar to this before & also had one of my signs do it a long time a go. The common factor with the ones I’ve seen and the one Graeme mentions and yours is that they are all vinyl on vinyl. I can’t help thinking that maybe residues are coming out of the vinyl underneath 🙄 . The 3000 range has a acrylic solvent glue they call ecotac. Eco as in economical or eco as in enviroment?
Steve
I used to buy all manner of different lifetime vinyls depending on job but soon realised I was better off buying larger amounts of decent vinyl. So if a customer wants graphics for a 2 week promo then I still use a decent 7 year vinyl from stock.
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seen it before when visiting a hot country, presume the hot weather/cheap vinyl was to blame 😕 i think over time most of it has been picked off…but still looks awful with shrinkage 😀
nik
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Another common factor seems to be the dark background probably accelerating the failure of the vinyl (poor choice of layered materials)
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quote Graeme Harrold:Not having seen the whole decal, is the white supposed to be that angular i.e. straight(ish) lines rather than smooth curves?I was wondering that. It looks like the cut file needs curve smoothing, extra nodes, but some fonts have that ‘look’.
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quote David-Foster-:quote Graeme Harrold:Not having seen the whole decal, is the white supposed to be that angular i.e. straight(ish) lines rather than smooth curves?
I was wondering that. It looks like the cut file needs curve smoothing, extra nodes, but some fonts have that ‘look’.
Ive had that with some fonts too. Look great at 12-18 points on paper, but when they are blown up you start noticing all the miss-alignments and compound straight lines. That’s basically the difference between a free font and one you pay for.
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quote Scott Evans_21:ive got the car coming in Monday.i am going to print them this time on MD5.
If your going to print them, make sure you laminate them too…
personaly ide use a good brand of 5-7 year ot 8-10 year cut vinyl graphic for this job. -
quote Gavin MacMillan:651 is a 5-7 year where the old 751 was a 7year. Avery 700 is also a 7 year. If it’s got a 5 in there then the general rule as I understand it is the colours are 5 year and black and white are 7. To me that is vinyl that is just not up to the job to be used as an all rounder. Fine for certain applications but not one for everything. I think a lot of people went to 651 after the 751 disappearing disaster, but it’s not an equivalent material and if you didn’t like the new 751c then a change of manufacturer was in order.
Gavin…
Oracal 751 is now a 7-8 year Cast. and is tagged 751c
Oracal 551 was introduced to allow for the upgrade of 751 to a cast. 551 is a 6-7 high perfomance calander. (metalics are 5 years.]
so those that switched from 751c because they did not like the charactoristics of the new cast, but then switched to 651, basicaly jumped backwards in quality… the switch should have been to the new 551 range.Oracal 651 is 4-5 year calandered vinyl and hasnt changed in properties from what i know. it should be used on flat panel work.
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That makes more sense Rob, the 551 range is not in my swatch book, apologies for the confusion.
I’m still amazed that people use 651 as a standard vinyl. -
i would say about 60% of my stock is 651, i have (touch wood) never had even a hint of a problem with it, so it surprises me when people say it’s no good for anything but flat panels, i’ve fitted it to most surfaces you can think of, on flat panels, curved panels, even small recesses. it’s coped with them all, and in some cases, has stayed put in recesses for 3yrs now.
a lot of my vinyl is 751c, but in all honesty, i prefer the 651! i haven’t seen the 551, so have yet to try it, i’ll get some samples and give it a go maybe.
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I started out only using 751c but as a rookie could not get on with it so well, I went for the next one down which is 551 and 90% of my stock is 551 and order in 751c if I need a colour from that range. I have since learned how to apply vinyl and do it dry so now can use 751c but still opt for 551 as I like using it.
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